Gulf Oil Spill & Continuous Outpour

[Ya Mu]

Rachel Maddow gives the speech she wishes Obama had given.

 

WoW - Thanks for posting.

IF ONLY...

[Stigweard]

Rachel Maddow gives the speech she wishes Obama had given.

 

Brilliant !!!!

 

Vote 1 Rachel Maddow, even with her blotchiness. If you yanks don't want her send her down under cause we have a job vacancy open for her.

 

[ralis]

The point isnt whether or not BP foots the bill, its the quid pro quo that took place in getting that escrow fund set up - also the point is law is already established here, but to go back and retroactively change the law after the fact - that is like burning your house down and then obtaining insurance and subsequent payout on it - skirting the rules to obtain "a more desired outcome," whimsical though it may be.

 

Regardless, notice what happened to BP's stock prices when they set up the escrow fund - magical turnaround, eh? What I was ostensibly saying was that by acceding to Obama's rewriting of the rules mid-game, BP played ball and likely saved the long term solvency of the company. A third party manages the escrow fund, saving BP from having to deal with it themselves and also be exposed to the totality of tort cases. Trust me, with how little resistance BP put up to such a measure, they knew it was in their best interest to do so!

 

This is what I detest about overregulation - the players keep getting the rules changed on them. What kind of a setup is that when your bottom line keeps changing? It screws up your whole ability to make long term plans.

 

Frankly if I had a solution, I'd be calling up BP - but I dont, so when you make a statement about the seabed and I dont address it...what does that mean? You're extremely naive if you think we can just stop all the drilling - think Councilor Hamann in the Matrix "Of course. That's it. You hit it. That's control, isn't it? If we wanted we could smash them to bits. Although, if we did, we'd have to consider what would happen to our lights, our heat, our air..." (...of course our air isnt dependent on oil.) But out energy consumption is absolutely dependent on oil, and unless we're prepared to ostensibly cover the earth in solar panels and windmills, "alternative" energy isnt going to cut it. At least not until we have developed a viable fusion reactor.

 

BP frigged up cutting corners trying to save a few bucks, and they should be held liable. But since we are a nation of laws, the laws should be followed and not changed or "Progressed past" at the whims of the public or whomever happens to hold office.

 

 

Where did you draw up the conclusion that I am against drilling? Please provide a quote!

 

How long do we wait if there is no money to pay for the damages? The Exxon Valdez (BP) took over 20 yrs. to settle and the SCOTUS cut the monetary damages considerably. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill

 

What if the gusher lasts for years and destroys vast amounts of ocean, while BP litigates this case for decades. Eventually it will end up with the SCOTUS and being the corporate shills they are, will let BP off the hook with minor costs. SCOTUS has already set a precedent for corporate favors. See the Citizens United case.

 

BTW, I am still on topic here. To refresh your memory, we are discussing the far reaching ramifications of this horrific man made event.

 

ralis

[ralis]

This just came out from the hearings in Congress today. This is another corporations need to be reigned in.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/17/gulf-oil-spill-rig-owners_n_616390.html

 

 

ralis

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Well, this event really shines a light on the hard fact that corporations exist to make profits. Period. Social responsibility and moral behavior is only for show in order to keep business going to increase profits. So many of the so called tea party people are mad at the government entities, but they seem to not get that big business is the evil cancer that is raping our civilization. Interesting that the GOP still defends big business. Perhaps some Americans are slightly waking up to the realization that corporate culture has no regard for them, only themselves and their shareholders. This is actually built in to the actual structure and definition of a corporation, they disregard all Life in their quest for increased quarterly profits. And yet, they are awarded the legal definition of personhood. They are anti-Life. And that's why the Gulf Oil Spill Spew is unfolding as it is.

[Ya Mu]

Well, this event really shines a light on the hard fact that corporations exist to make profits. Period. Social responsibility and moral behavior is only for show in order to keep business going to increase profits. So many of the so called tea party people are mad at the government entities, but they seem to not get that big business is the evil cancer that is raping our civilization. Interesting that the GOP still defends big business. Perhaps some Americans are slightly waking up to the realization that corporate culture has no regard for them, only themselves and their shareholders. This is actually built in to the actual structure and definition of a corporation, they disregard all Life in their quest for increased quarterly profits. And yet, they are awarded the legal definition of personhood. They are anti-Life. And that's why the Gulf Oil Spill Spew is unfolding as it is.

Agreed. Corporate culture has overtaken both common sense and common long standing conservative values and replaced them with greed, control, mind/brain washing, and dominance. I believe, though, that fail it will. It appears that it may take something as drastic as a partial/large proportion wipe-out of humanity, but a return to the family farm (metaphorically and physically) will happen.

[Stigweard]

Agreed. Corporate culture has overtaken both common sense and common long standing conservative values and replaced them with greed, control, mind/brain washing, and dominance. I believe, though, that fail it will. It appears that it may take something as drastic as a partial/large proportion wipe-out of humanity, but a return to the family farm (metaphorically and physically) will happen.

Is this the birth of the "Family Farm Party"?? How many members do we need to get going

[ralis]

Well, this event really shines a light on the hard fact that corporations exist to make profits. Period. Social responsibility and moral behavior is only for show in order to keep business going to increase profits. So many of the so called tea party people are mad at the government entities, but they seem to not get that big business is the evil cancer that is raping our civilization. Interesting that the GOP still defends big business. Perhaps some Americans are slightly waking up to the realization that corporate culture has no regard for them, only themselves and their shareholders. This is actually built in to the actual structure and definition of a corporation, they disregard all Life in their quest for increased quarterly profits. And yet, they are awarded the legal definition of personhood. They are anti-Life. And that's why the Gulf Oil Spill Spew is unfolding as it is.

 

I agree! The idea of a corporate legal person hood is atrocious! Corporations were originally chartered for the common good and were dissolved after a number of years. With the Citizens United case, corporations can last forever and pour unlimited amounts of money for political influence. Chief Justice Roberts actively pursued this case last year so that he could make certain it come before the court again.

 

One problem yet to be discussed is that if the well is damaged beyond repair with no way to seal it, the Atlantic could very well be destroyed. If that happens, the oxygen levels in the atmosphere will severely decline. It is obvious what that means.

 

 

ralis

Edited June 18, 2010 by ralis

[ralis]

Some facts about benzene which is one of the major ingredients in Corexit, which is the dispersant(solvent) being used to break up the oil into small globules.

 

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/benzene/basics/facts.asp

 

 

ralis

[joeblast]

Rachel Maddow gives the speech she wishes Obama had given.

 

My first reaction: give me a f'n break with positioning these companies as only existing so that the corporations themselves can make money. Why do these corporations exist? Because there is a niche in the market, there is a need for the product, the corporation fills it. The product they harvest has among the highest energy densities of any other remotely available material. It has benefited the lives of countless people worldwide - people dont need to hack down forests to burn the wood to stay warm, we arent keeping 100 million horses available to cart us around and plow fields - so this "highly compassionate" approach is not much more than a big bag of hot wind and plays fast and loose with many realities of the world. And before "obscene" profits are mentioned - take a look at the profit margin, only around 8% - not obscene in the least, its the volume that makes the overall number seem outrageous. This goop makes the world go round, that's why people invest in it.

 

And before a company can drill in 5000 feet of water, they somehow miraculously need to prove that they can fix any possible break that may happen, regardless of whether or not it has happened before, regardless of whether we've seen anything like this happen before - basically these companies need a contingency plan for any mishap within the realm of possibility? How realistic is that?

 

Yeah...now on to why they were drilling in five thousand feet of water in the first place - thank you environmentalists, there are a million places they could have been drilling that would have been vastly easier to manage, and vastly easier to manage a catastrophe as well. They were drilling where the feds said they could drill, because they've put just about everything else off limits.

 

The regulatory agencies involved utterly failed to do their job here - now them getting too cozy with the people in the industry is somehow the industry's fault? *cough*BS*cough*

 

Of course none of this exculpates BP from going on the cheap and not adding safety equipment or accelerating processes so fast to the point at which the entire process had the floor fall out from underneath it, just to save time and money.

 

Sorry Rachel, your anti-oil, anti-corporation stance is myopic, one sided and unrealistic. Do you honestly think that simply doubling, tripling subsidies for renewable energy is somehow going to supplant the vast amount of oil required to keep our society functioning? No, we are not beholden to the oil companies. We are beholden to the way of life we and our predecessors have built for us - so hate the game, not the playa - the oil companies exist so that we may heat our homes, drive our cars, and live life as it has progressed thus far.

 

Seriously, if you want to triple subsidies, do it for something that will actually be able to close that energy gap, not this nickel and dime crap. We need to develop a viable fusion reactor, that is the only thing that is going to be able to compete with oil on a large scale. Suggest a push for colleges to expand physics departments, let people intern as much as they want, let's get on the fusion project - wind and solar arent going to cut it, not even close. That's not to say that we shouldnt continue to develop better solar panels and cells, because solar absolutely has its applications - but as a replacement for oil? Its nothing more than lip service.

[idquest]

I agree that subsudies won't produce the desired effect; they are likely to increase corruption and lobby groups only. The real problem is that the price of oil/gasoline is unrealistically and artificially low. That skews price perception and distorts everyday decision making of all Joes in the North America.

 

Why the oil price is artificially low? Well we should probably include two Iraq wars expenses in the price. We probably should add current 100 bln of estimated damages on BP well and plenty of other hidden expenses that are financed through other budget lines. The easiest way to adjust gas prices is to introduce carbon tax and direct this tax revenue on financing alternative sources and infrastructure. It is done in Europe, in some Canadian provinces, so why it can't be done in the USA?

[gendao]

Well, this event really shines a light on the hard fact that corporations exist to make profits. Period. Social responsibility and moral behavior is only for show in order to keep business going to increase profits. So many of the so called tea party people are mad at the government entities, but they seem to not get that big business is the evil cancer that is raping our civilization. Interesting that the GOP still defends big business. Perhaps some Americans are slightly waking up to the realization that corporate culture has no regard for them, only themselves and their shareholders. This is actually built in to the actual structure and definition of a corporation, they disregard all Life in their quest for increased quarterly profits. And yet, they are awarded the legal definition of personhood. They are anti-Life. And that's why the Gulf Oil Spill Spew is unfolding as it is.

Lol, I guess you missed the part where OBAMA is the top recipient of BP PAC and individual money over the past 20 years & reversed a 29-year ban to approve new oil and gas drilling off U.S. coasts back in March?

 

And neither Democrats or Republicans imposed tighter regulations on offshore drilling here in the US. Deepwater wells already must be accompanied by relief wells in Canada and Norway (maybe other countries), for example. But not here.

 

Of course, Obama spent his whole time shoving the CFR's Socialized Healthcare down our throats against majority opinion...and then instead of imposing tougher safety regulations on offshore drilling - actually approved more! Oh yea, Democrats really CARE about our environment, as opposed to Republicans!

[ralis]

My first reaction: give me a f'n break with positioning these companies as only existing so that the corporations themselves can make money. Why do these corporations exist? Because there is a niche in the market, there is a need for the product, the corporation fills it. The product they harvest has among the highest energy densities of any other remotely available material. It has benefited the lives of countless people worldwide - people dont need to hack down forests to burn the wood to stay warm, we arent keeping 100 million horses available to cart us around and plow fields - so this "highly compassionate" approach is not much more than a big bag of hot wind and plays fast and loose with many realities of the world. And before "obscene" profits are mentioned - take a look at the profit margin, only around 8% - not obscene in the least, its the volume that makes the overall number seem outrageous. This goop makes the world go round, that's why people invest in it.

 

And before a company can drill in 5000 feet of water, they somehow miraculously need to prove that they can fix any possible break that may happen, regardless of whether or not it has happened before, regardless of whether we've seen anything like this happen before - basically these companies need a contingency plan for any mishap within the realm of possibility? How realistic is that?

 

Yeah...now on to why they were drilling in five thousand feet of water in the first place - thank you environmentalists, there are a million places they could have been drilling that would have been vastly easier to manage, and vastly easier to manage a catastrophe as well. They were drilling where the feds said they could drill, because they've put just about everything else off limits.

 

The regulatory agencies involved utterly failed to do their job here - now them getting too cozy with the people in the industry is somehow the industry's fault? *cough*BS*cough*

 

Of course none of this exculpates BP from going on the cheap and not adding safety equipment or accelerating processes so fast to the point at which the entire process had the floor fall out from underneath it, just to save time and money.

 

Sorry Rachel, your anti-oil, anti-corporation stance is myopic, one sided and unrealistic. Do you honestly think that simply doubling, tripling subsidies for renewable energy is somehow going to supplant the vast amount of oil required to keep our society functioning? No, we are not beholden to the oil companies. We are beholden to the way of life we and our predecessors have built for us - so hate the game, not the playa - the oil companies exist so that we may heat our homes, drive our cars, and live life as it has progressed thus far.

 

Seriously, if you want to triple subsidies, do it for something that will actually be able to close that energy gap, not this nickel and dime crap. We need to develop a viable fusion reactor, that is the only thing that is going to be able to compete with oil on a large scale. Suggest a push for colleges to expand physics departments, let people intern as much as they want, let's get on the fusion project - wind and solar arent going to cut it, not even close. That's not to say that we shouldnt continue to develop better solar panels and cells, because solar absolutely has its applications - but as a replacement for oil? Its nothing more than lip service.

 

 

You are so certain that you have all the facts. You posit many fallacious arguments that are untenable.

 

1. Environmentalists are to blame for drilling in 5000' of water! Therefor BP has no choice? BP is a private corporation and could drill off the coast of China or somewhere else.

 

2. If you want to know who signed the executive order to stop offshore drilling, then read this. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/14/national/main4257757.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_4257757 Looks like President Bush by executive order in 1990.

 

3. You blame everyone except BP and their sloppy engineering.

 

4. There is evidence from survivors of the Deepwater Horizon, that BP cut corners. Insufficient concentric rings that hold the casing in place. Cheap casing that collapsed when the concrete was pumped into the well. The BOP gasket (o-ring was damaged) 1 month prior.

 

If these corporations are to serve the public good, then tighter regulations must exist, to protect life! Not more deregulation as you propose. The last 30 years since Reagen have shown this country what damage deregulation has done.

 

 

 

 

ralis

Edited June 18, 2010 by ralis

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Lol, I guess you missed the part where OBAMA is the top recipient of BP PAC and individual money over the past 20 years & reversed a 29-year ban to approve new oil and gas drilling off U.S. coasts back in March?

 

And neither Democrats or Republicans imposed tighter regulations on offshore drilling here in the US. Deepwater wells already must be accompanied by relief wells in Canada and Norway (maybe other countries), for example. But not here.

 

Of course, Obama spent his whole time shoving the CFR's Socialized Healthcare down our throats against majority opinion...and then instead of imposing tougher safety regulations on offshore drilling - actually approved more! Oh yea, Democrats really CARE about our environment, as opposed to Republicans!

 

 

Vortex, I am pointing out that big money is powering everything, Republican or Democrat. The way the works is that nobody can be elected president without being fully owned and indebted to the corporate machine.

 

Your thoughts about Obama are beside the point. He opened up modest amounts of new drilling mainly to appease the GOP, not because he 'owed' big oil per se.

 

And you sound like another reactive hysterical person shouting about 'socialized' healthcare. The point is, it's not socialized, and some change needed to happen in healthcare in this country. It was sure to sink our economy very soon, and it probably will just take longer now.

 

My comment was to point out the BIG PICTURE of how corporate money controls our country and the world, and that corporations by their very definition are anti-life (unless for them to act differently creates a profit). Do you have a response to this? You sidestep the big picture and just start sputtering out specific little objections rather than discussing the way corporations have their evil tentacles in every aspect of our lives.

Their decisions can mean life and death for millions of people (remember the 'rescissions' that the health insurance industry practices?).

 

And now, with the Supreme Courts decision earlier this year, corporations can now spend whatever they wish in political campaign contributions. Do you think this is a good step for democracy?

[ralis]

 

 

Of course, Obama spent his whole time shoving the CFR's Socialized Healthcare down our throats against majority opinion...and then instead of imposing tougher safety regulations on offshore drilling - actually approved more! Oh yea, Democrats really CARE about our environment, as opposed to Republicans!

 

CFR conspiracy? Quit believing everything you read! Get a life!

 

ralis

[gendao]

Vortex, I am pointing out that big money is powering everything, Republican or Democrat. The way the works is that nobody can be elected president without being fully owned and indebted to the corporate machine.

Agreed, but you had only singled out the GOP as defending big biz. That's another liberal myth. Big biz donates to both sides of the fence. The only ones they generally don't bribe are independents.

Your thoughts about Obama are beside the point. He opened up modest amounts of new drilling mainly to appease the GOP, not because he 'owed' big oil per se.

Riggghhtt, so he "had" to appease the GOP on oil...but not Socialized Healthcare? No, he DID owe big oil because he was their largest bribetaker. Let's get real here.

 

Anyhow, any more Obamacare debate should be posted back in that thread.

My comment was to point out the BIG PICTURE of how corporate money controls our country and the world, and that corporations by their very definition are anti-life (unless for them to act differently creates a profit). Do you have a response to this? You sidestep the big picture and just start sputtering out specific little objections rather than discussing the way corporations have their evil tentacles in every aspect of our lives.

Their decisions can mean life and death for millions of people (remember the 'rescissions' that the health insurance industry practices?).

I don't demonize big corporations. I am against any corrupt coporations that sacrifice consumers' health & our environment in favor of quick profits. These could be large or small companies. It's about their conduct, not size.

 

Although all else aside, large companies can actually be good due to economy of scale. There is also no way in h*ll a "mom & pop" company could run massive oil rigs & refineries. Or build autos. The problem here was insufficient regulation because of all their political bribes. And where does all that bribe money come from? Consumers who choose to buy these corporations' products. And until we develop better alternatives & people shop more consciously, this won't change.

 

I buy 100% wind-generated electricity. How many other people do?

And now, with the Supreme Courts decision earlier this year, corporations can now spend whatever they wish in political campaign contributions. Do you think this is a good step for democracy?

Nope. That's why I always try to vote INDEPENDENT. Unfortunately, our POTUS & SCOTUS are all stacked entirely by R or D - with zero Indys.

[thelerner]

Why so much whining?? You all see the cup as half empty, when you should see it half full... w/ a little oil on top.

 

You're only seeing the bad and none of the good. For example I was walking along the beach yesterday and saw an oil covered pelican struggling in the surf. I pulled it out and tried to decide what to do with the thing.

 

I decided flambe; and threw a match at it. It went up like a fire ball, then sizzled nicely. The feathers and skin burnt away leaving a nice, slightly oily chickeny taste. Sea gull and Sea bass were similarly delicious. Sea turtles ended up gently steamed in the shell.

 

People think its a bad time for fisherman. They're wrong, its the best. They don't even need a boat; they can just walk along the shore with a garbage bag. The fish will fry themselves, its like getting a twofer.

 

So people, don't consider it a minor ecological apocalypse, rather think of it as the world's biggest fish fry.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

 

[gendao]

BP is also very resistant to using green clean-up technology.

one of the company's V20 machines can clean up to 210,000 gallons of oily water per day. There are 3 V20 centrifuge machines currently operational in the Gulf. Ten more should become operational within weeks.

 

centrifuge machines are sophisticated centrifuge devices that can handle a huge volume of water and separate oil at unprecedented rates. Costner has been funding a team of scientists for the last 15 years to develop a technology which could be used for massive oil spills.

 

The machines are taken out into the spill area via barges, where they can separate the oil and water. The machines come in different sizes, the largest of which, the V20, can clean water at a rate of 200 gallons per minute. Depending on the oil to water ratio, the machine has the ability to extract 2,000 barrels of oil a day from the Gulf. Once separation has occurred, the oil is stored in tanks. The water is then more than 99% clean of crude.

A company Kevin Costner founded worked for 17 years on a technological innovation now being used to help clean up the Gulf oil spill -- and it took almost as long to get Big Oil to pay any attention.

 

"The whole world is watching as America fumbles its way through the greatest environmental disaster in history," Costner told the Senate Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship at a hearing Thursday in Washington. "I believe there are other small companies out there in the private sector just like us. You should know that negotiating your way through the bureaucratic maze that currently exists is like trying to play a video game that nobody can master."

 

BP said Monday that it has ordered 32 of the 4,000-pound machines that Ocean Therapy Solutions, a company Costner funds, invented to separate oil from water. But getting the machine on BP's radar took a Herculean effort -- even for a rich, high-profile movie star like Costner.

 

Fellow witness Heather Baird testified about just how impossible that bureaucratic video game can be. Baird is the vice president of communications for Microsorb Environmental Products, a Massachusetts company that uses non-toxic, oil-eating microbes to clean up spills.

 

BP (BP) has used Microsorb on past spills, and the technology is on the Environmental Protection Agency's approved product list for emergencies like this one. But Microsorb can't get its little microbes into the Gulf of Mexico. The company's executives have spent thousands of dollars traveling to the Gulf, pitching every BP executive and official they can reach on the efficacy and safety of their product.

 

But "BP holds the checkbook," and until Microsorb manages to hack through to the executive with the ability to green-light the project, its oil-eating organisms will remain sidelined.

Hell, if BP won't pay for these devices...why can't the Feds step in and bill them for it later?

 

We have no problem blowing $80 billion/month in Iraq, nearly a trillion on Bailouts, another trillion on Pelosicare...but now when we have the environmental disaster of the century here at home, suddenly can't find any funds???

 

I just love all the great help we've kept turning away! From more advanced European/Asian countries & homegrown green tech!

[joeblast]

You are so certain that you have all the facts. You posit many fallacious arguments that are untenable.

 

1. Environmentalists are to blame for drilling in 5000' of water! Therefor BP has no choice? BP is a private corporation and could drill off the coast of China or somewhere else.

 

2. If you want to know who signed the executive order to stop offshore drilling, then read this. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/14/national/main4257757.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_4257757 Looks like President Bush by executive order in 1990.

 

3. You blame everyone except BP and their sloppy engineering.

 

4. There is evidence from survivors of the Deepwater Horizon, that BP cut corners. Insufficient concentric rings that hold the casing in place. Cheap casing that collapsed when the concrete was pumped into the well. The BOP gasket (o-ring was damaged) 1 month prior.

 

If these corporations are to serve the public good, then tighter regulations must exist, to protect life! Not more deregulation as you propose. The last 30 years since Reagen have shown this country what damage deregulation has done.

 

 

ralis

You gotta slow down and read everything I'm posting instead of getting ~30% of it and railing off on that.

 

1-yes, environmental lobbying is the root cause of that. So push it foreign? Arent our policies already pushing people to go foreign way too much? Sure, we dont need those jobs in the US...

2-does it matter who caved in?

3-this is where you're missing some reading, already stated the contrary 2, 3 times over.

4-I already stated that plus details; secondary: redundant.

5-you're taking my deregulation statements out of context and applying it in a manner I either have not stated or is contrary to what I have stated. regulation is like subsidies, a little bit done appropriately helps, but when it's half the book, you have but a severe impediment and increased likelihood of corrupt activities going on in the background.

[NeiChuan]

How many have stopped to think of the far reaching implications of the USA gulf coast oil situation? At the very minimum, a possible devastation of a multi-billion dollar industry. At the maximum, a possible change of economics that could put the nation over the edge economically and possible endangerment to world's food supply? What do you think? Do you think the actual amount of oil coming out is reported or censored? Why can't the officials be told the ingredients in the "dispersant"? Is it going to prove to be extremely harmful? Is BP done for economically or do they make enough money that a weeks operation will pay for everything so far? How will that effect the world? No more deep well drilling? Effect on nation due to peak oil production has already come & gone? Why will they (BP & coast guard) not allow alternative means of cleanup to be used?

And what about economic refugees from the gulf states - where are they going to go?

 

Considering how similar has happened in the past, aswell as how similar its dealt with nearly every time. I think its a great example, of how corporations can run amok and still get into very little trouble for it.

 

And ofcourse the media always panders too them "Ohh poor corporation.. Do you need a shoulder to cry on? cause were here".

 

Things like this happen because they want a few more bucks, thats it.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

You gotta slow down and read everything I'm posting instead of getting ~30% of it and railing off on that.

 

1-yes, environmental lobbying is the root cause of that. So push it foreign? Arent our policies already pushing people to go foreign way too much? Sure, we dont need those jobs in the US...

2-does it matter who caved in?

3-this is where you're missing some reading, already stated the contrary 2, 3 times over.

4-I already stated that plus details; secondary: redundant.

5-you're taking my deregulation statements out of context and applying it in a manner I either have not stated or is contrary to what I have stated. regulation is like subsidies, a little bit done appropriately helps, but when it's half the book, you have but a severe impediment and increased likelihood of corrupt activities going on in the background.

 

Dang, Joeblast- you are such a smartypants!! Why do we bother trying to argue with you, you smoke us every time! I just wonder how you get to post things in the workday with your mid-level corporate position. Don't they monitor y'alls computers? You are my hero. Resistance is futile. We should all be like you, sir!

[Encephalon]

Dang, Joeblast- you are such a smartypants!! Why do we bother trying to argue with you, you smoke us every time! I just wonder how you get to post things in the workday with your mid-level corporate position. Don't they monitor y'alls computers? You are my hero. Resistance is futile. We should all be like you, sir!

 

Well hell, now I'm feelin' sorry for 'em. But seriously, Joe, I've not been in agreement with anything you've said since I signed on a little over a year ago, but I'll give you credit for being consistent, and I'm willing to concede that there are corners of your mental universe that remain uncharted by the rest of us, particularly, RightWingLand. With a little work I could dust off what I read about Edmund Burke and conservative intellectual history and would still fall short of the post-Adam Smith capitalists and their ilk which you seem so adept at channeling.

 

(Of course, I could trip up the peasants by leaving behind a puddle of regurgitated postmodern globalization esoterica from my urban studies grad program, but that gets old too!)

 

But I have to ask; What is the appeal of Taoism? It is a fundamentally ecological philosophy that can reveal itself in a number of ways, certainly through the body, but it is also radically consistent with ecology and general systems theory. It would be No Great Leap to argue that market fundamentalism, as it has manifested within the conservative and capitalist tradition, really doesn't have a hell of a lot in common with ecological and environmental models. Treatises on economic development, the Laffer Curve, revolving credit, not to mention extractive industries, do not make a bit of sense within a closed system of finite resources (and even Adam Smith, one of the darlings of the capitalists, new this and wrote about it unequivocally).

 

So what's the appeal? Is it just about learning how to become a better fighter, a more efficient soldier? This is like Sting and his legion of adoring fans practicing Tantra and power yoga in order to achieve better orgasms. Yoga is so much more than this. Are you not at risk of missing out on the bigger picture?

 

What a blast.

[Ya Mu]

Is this the birth of the "Family Farm Party"?? How many members do we need to get going

I don't know about your neck of the woods but here in the USA we have been in desperate need of a 3rd sensible (one that actually makes sense) party. After 8 years of thieves I think led by not even average intelligence selling our country down river and financially breaking us then another by a smart person who I think is acting extremely dumb, if something does not change we don't have a hope or prayer.

[Ya Mu]

My first reaction: give me a f'n break with positioning these companies as only existing so that the corporations themselves can make money. Why do these corporations exist? Because there is a niche in the market, there is a need for the product, the corporation fills it. The product they harvest has among the highest energy densities of any other remotely available material. It has benefited the lives of countless people worldwide - people dont need to hack down forests to burn the wood to stay warm, we arent keeping 100 million horses available to cart us around and plow fields - so this "highly compassionate" approach is not much more than a big bag of hot wind and plays fast and loose with many realities of the world. And before "obscene" profits are mentioned - take a look at the profit margin, only around 8% - not obscene in the least, its the volume that makes the overall number seem outrageous. This goop makes the world go round, that's why people invest in it.

 

And before a company can drill in 5000 feet of water, they somehow miraculously need to prove that they can fix any possible break that may happen, regardless of whether or not it has happened before, regardless of whether we've seen anything like this happen before - basically these companies need a contingency plan for any mishap within the realm of possibility? How realistic is that?

 

Yeah...now on to why they were drilling in five thousand feet of water in the first place - thank you environmentalists, there are a million places they could have been drilling that would have been vastly easier to manage, and vastly easier to manage a catastrophe as well. They were drilling where the feds said they could drill, because they've put just about everything else off limits.

 

The regulatory agencies involved utterly failed to do their job here - now them getting too cozy with the people in the industry is somehow the industry's fault? *cough*BS*cough*

 

Of course none of this exculpates BP from going on the cheap and not adding safety equipment or accelerating processes so fast to the point at which the entire process had the floor fall out from underneath it, just to save time and money.

 

Sorry Rachel, your anti-oil, anti-corporation stance is myopic, one sided and unrealistic. Do you honestly think that simply doubling, tripling subsidies for renewable energy is somehow going to supplant the vast amount of oil required to keep our society functioning? No, we are not beholden to the oil companies. We are beholden to the way of life we and our predecessors have built for us - so hate the game, not the playa - the oil companies exist so that we may heat our homes, drive our cars, and live life as it has progressed thus far.

 

Seriously, if you want to triple subsidies, do it for something that will actually be able to close that energy gap, not this nickel and dime crap. We need to develop a viable fusion reactor, that is the only thing that is going to be able to compete with oil on a large scale. Suggest a push for colleges to expand physics departments, let people intern as much as they want, let's get on the fusion project - wind and solar arent going to cut it, not even close. That's not to say that we shouldnt continue to develop better solar panels and cells, because solar absolutely has its applications - but as a replacement for oil? Its nothing more than lip service.

"Nickle and dime crap." I seriously disagree here. Ar you saying oil, coal, and nuclear have not been HEAVILY subsidized in our country? How could you think that? If just solar hot water was implemented by everyone then there would be an approximate 30% reduction in utility usage. ALL that coal you see being transported from one end of the country at every hour of every day uses OIL to do so. This usage would be cut SIGNIFICANTLY. Do you think the automotive industry has not been HEAVILY subsidized? How could you think so? Just think - 70% of the population drives under 40 miles to work. Electric powered vehicles, the technology we have NOW, would do that. Say 50% of the population adopted electric cars with solar powered charging stations. 50% reduction of need for oil.

 

Do you wonder why Germany, Japan, and other countries are so far ahead of the USA in adopting solar? (oh yes they are) It is because of folks who think like you, quite specifically 8 years of oil buddy buddy hell caused by GREED of the previous administration (closed door oil bigshots with huge GREED SETTING energy policy! Still can't believe the American people stood for this!) and the backers of said administration. And the current administration is not really doing anything to pull us out of this oil oil oil addiction either.

 

I was around when solar tax credits existed late 70's early 80's. A HUGE industry sprang up, making great strides in solar efficiency and implementation. Then BAM, oil interests were successful in getting the subsidies pulled, and the industry crashed like a brick. Just think what could be if that hadn't happened.

 

Have you ever SEEN a solar hot water heater?

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

 

And before a company can drill in 5000 feet of water, they somehow miraculously need to prove that they can fix any possible break that may happen, regardless of whether or not it has happened before, regardless of whether we've seen anything like this happen before - basically these companies need a contingency plan for any mishap within the realm of possibility? How realistic is that?

 

 

 

Miraculously?? How about having real safeguards at every point in the deep water system, with real plans for action if there is failure? Obviously BP was cutting costs and actually did not much care. They got lazy. What if the FAA gets lazy about safeguards and back up plans for the aviation industry, and the inspectors were getting favors and kick backs from the airlines? Isn't the government supposed to 'miraculously' try to foresee any event that might happen, regardless if we've seen anything like certain possible scenarios before? The stakes are enormous, so yes, you must have legitimate plans in place to protect the safety of many people. Same for deep water drilling. They can't just 'blow it off'.

 

When the stakes are so supremely high, it is like what Rachel Maddow said in the video cited already in this thread:

 

 

"...Never again will any company, anyone, be allowed to drill in a location where they are incapable of dealing with the potential consequences of that drilling. When the benefits of drilling accrue to a private company, but the risks of that drilling accrue to We, the American People, whose waters and shoreline are savaged when things go wrong...I, as 'President', stand on the side of the American People and say to the industry, 'from this day forward, if you cannot handle the risk, you no longer will take chances with our fate to reap the rewards'..."

 

We must demand that the oil companies have these plans and safeguards in place, with many back ups and cross checks, so we can avoid despoiling our waters and smashing the lives of hundreds of thousands of people.

Edited June 19, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth