Taoist Philosophy

[Marblehead]

[WhiteTiger]

Outstanding,

 

thanks for posting once again.

 

Best Regards, wtiger

[Oleg Galkin]

Marblehead,

 

Great idea to post all chapters of Tao Te here! Thank you!

[Marblehead]

Marblehead,

 

Great idea to post all chapters of Tao Te here! Thank you!

 

Thanks Oleg. Remember though, the "chapters" I am posting are not consistent with the chapters of the TTC even though all chapters of the TTC are included.

 

Peace & Love!

Edited May 22, 2010 by Marblehead

[~jK~]

Remember though, the "chapters" I am posting are not consistent with the chapters of the TTC even though all chapters of the TTC are included.

Intresting in that you think you can improve on one of the greatest philosophical works of a civilization based on philosophy- not religion.

 

This is not helping anyone understand TTC, it is helping them understand you.

[Marblehead]

Intresting in that you think you can improve on one of the greatest philosophical works of a civilization based on philosophy- not religion.

 

This is not helping anyone understand TTC, it is helping them understand you.

 

That is not true, you know.

 

What I am presenting are the words of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

I never claimed that what I am presenting is my thoughts or interpretation because it is not.

 

My only intention is to help others understand Philosophical Taoism more completely by presenting writings by Lao Tzu supported by comments from Chuang Tzu of the same concept.

 

How can you claim to speak for everyone on this forum? How do you know that what I am presenting is not helping anyone? I have had many people tell me that it has helped them understand a concept. Are you suggesting that these people are lying just so they can inflate my ego?

 

I always respond to comments made to the "chapters" I am presenting. I think it is very unfair to criticize my efforts to help others understand Taoist Philosophy.

 

In you assertion above against what I am doing is nothing less than suggesting that every one who has ever translated the TTC and Chuang Tzu are trying to improve on the writings. This is an obscene thought, IMO.

 

Please do not put on me something that I am not doing. I have not re-written anything. I have only re-order what is already written. That is all. What I am presenting does not include any of my own interpretations. They are the words of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

You and everyone else are more than welcome to comment on or question anything that is presented in any of the "chapters" I am presenting and I will make every effort to find the exact translation and where that passage can be found.

 

If what I am doing has helped only one person understand just one Taoist concept then I think my efforts have been of value. While what I am presenting my not be helping you please do not pretend to speak for every member on this forum.

 

Sincere Thanks,

Marbles

[Apech]

I have to say I find it very helpful to have extracts from original texts on here - there's a lot of debate, opinion and interpretation floating around but the clarity brought by these short extracts is exceptional.

 

I think to suggest that Marblehead is being anything other than helpful is ridiculous IMO.

[~jK~]

That is not true, you know.

 

What I am presenting are the words of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

I never claimed that what I am presenting is my thoughts or interpretation because it is not.

 

My only intention is to help others understand Philosophical Taoism more completely by presenting writings by Lao Tzu supported by comments from Chuang Tzu of the same concept.

 

How can you claim to speak for everyone on this forum? How do you know that what I am presenting is not helping anyone? I have had many people tell me that it has helped them understand a concept. Are you suggesting that these people are lying just so they can inflate my ego?

 

I always respond to comments made to the "chapters" I am presenting. I think it is very unfair to criticize my efforts to help others understand Taoist Philosophy.

 

In you assertion above against what I am doing is nothing less than suggesting that every one who has ever translated the TTC and Chuang Tzu are trying to improve on the writings. This is an obscene thought, IMO.

 

Please do not put on me something that I am not doing. I have not re-written anything. I have only re-order what is already written. That is all. What I am presenting does not include any of my own interpretations. They are the words of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

You and everyone else are more than welcome to comment on or question anything that is presented in any of the "chapters" I am presenting and I will make every effort to find the exact translation and where that passage can be found.

 

If what I am doing has helped only one person understand just one Taoist concept then I think my efforts have been of value. While what I am presenting my not be helping you please do not pretend to speak for every member on this forum.

 

Sincere Thanks,

Marbles

 

 

Which translation are you quoting?

I've read several translations as well as made my own translation as well as worked with my Chinese friends that were studying TTC - None of them even come close to what you are writing.

 

"Taoist Philosophy Chapter 44 - The Way Of Tao Is Different But Easy #1 Marblehead

 

Tao Bum!

 

Group:

The Tao Bums Posts:

4,284 Joined:

08-July 09 Posted 21 May 2010 - 05:07 PM

 

My words are very easy to understand

And to put into practice,

Yet few in the world

Are capable of understanding them

And putting them into practice.

 

While the crowd is feasting at a great sacrifice

Or going up to the terraces

For the springtime festivities,

I remain alone in impassive immobility,

Like an infant who has not yet learned how to smile;

I am like a homeless wretch.

 

While others have more than enough,

I alone seem to have lost everything.

 

How stupid I look!

How boorish!

How brilliant the people are!

I alone am dull.

How self-assured they are!

I alone am vacillating.

 

Here is James Legge Translation # 44

"44

Cautions

 

Or fame or life,

Which do you hold more dear?

Or life or wealth,

To which would you adhere?

Keep life and lose those other things;

Keep them and lose your life:which brings

Sorrow and pain more near?

Thus we may see,

Who cleaves to fame

Rejects what is more great;

Who loves large stores

Gives up the richer state.

 

Who is content

Needs fear no shame.

Who knows to stop

Incurs no blame.

From danger free

Long live shall he."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

"The translator James Legge (1815-97) was a first professor of Chinese at Oxford University (1876-97), and took part in preparing the Sacred Books of the East series of 50 volumes between 1879 and 1891. "

http://oaks.nvg.org/tao-legge41-50.html#44

 

Another, more recent, Translation by D.C. Lau (Lau is a Chinese Sir Name)

44

Your name or your person,

Which is dearer?

Your person or your goods,

Which is worth more?

Gain or loss,

Which is a greater bane?

That is why excessive meanness

Is sure to lead to great expense;

Too much store

Is sure to end in immense loss.

Know contentment

And you will suffer no disgrace;

Know when to stop

And you will meet with no danger.

You can then endure.

http://www.terebess.hu/english/tao/lau.html#Kap44

Edited May 23, 2010 by ~jK~

[Marblehead]

I have to say I find it very helpful to have extracts from original texts on here - there's a lot of debate, opinion and interpretation floating around but the clarity brought by these short extracts is exceptional.

 

I think to suggest that Marblehead is being anything other than helpful is ridiculous IMO.

 

Thanks for the support.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Which translation are you quoting?

I've read several translations as well as made my own translation as well as worked with my Chinese friends that were studying TTC - None of them even come close to what you are writing.

 

Hi ~jk~,

 

If you go back to my introduction to this series you will note that I said that the "chapters' I am presenting have nothing to do with the chapter numberings of the TTC.

 

There is no "chapter" of my work that will correspond to any of the chapter numberings of the TTC.

 

This is because my compilation is broken down into concepts within the themes of the TTC.

 

Please do not try to find correspondance betweeen my "chpters and the chapters of the TTC. There are none.

 

There is, in my opinion, a natural flow of concepts within themes of my "chapters" that are being presented.

 

I am not re-writing anything. I am simply presenting what has already been written by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu in a different format.

 

Lin Yutang did the same thing in a limitted presentation and it was from Lin Yutang that I got the inspiration to do what I did.

 

The only thing else I will say to this is that if any reader feels that what I am doing is useless they should absolutely ignore all the posts. On the other hand, if anyone feels what I am presenting is helpful then I invite them to continue reading the posts.

 

If I had not recieved positive feedback when I first started posting the "Taoist Philosophy" threads I would have stopped doing so a long time ago.

 

As long as I continue to recieve positive feedback I will continue the posts until the end is reached.

 

Once again, and I have said this many times, my "chapters" are not the chapters of the TTC. My "chapters" are the concepts that are presented within the TTC. There are more than 81 concepts in the TTC. There are more than 81 "chapters" to what I am presenting.

 

And again, I am not trying to make anything 'better'. All I am attempting is to enhance the understanding of anyone who reads my posts.

 

If what I am doing helps then that is good. If it helps not then that too is good.

 

If I get at least one read of any of the posts I will continue posting.

 

There are no arguements here. I am not arguing a position. I am only presenting, in a different format, what has already been presented by many others.

 

If it is the desire of the forum owner to save data-base space and I am requested to stop posting I will happily comply with the request.

 

And besides all that, I am not the only member here who is posting information who others feel is worthless so I suppose that if this criteria were ever to be used the forum would become silent.

 

Peace & Love!

Edited May 23, 2010 by Marblehead

[~jK~]

Please do not try to find correspondance betweeen my "chpters and the chapters of the TTC. There are none.

 

There is, in my opinion, a natural flow of concepts within themes of my "chapters" that are being presented.

 

I am not re-writing anything. I am simply presenting what has already been written by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu in a different format.

 

Once again, and I have said this many times, my "chapters" are not the chapters of the TTC. My "chapters" are the concepts that are presented within the TTC. There are more than 81 concepts in the TTC. There are more than 81 "chapters" to what I am presenting.

 

And again, I am not trying to make anything 'better'. All I am attempting is to enhance the understanding of anyone who reads my posts.

Peace & Love!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please do not try to find correspondance betweeen my "chpters and the chapters of the TTC. There are none.

I am not re-writing anything. I am simply presenting what has already been written by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu in a different format.

 

Do you read what you write? It seems total confusion between one paragraph and the next.

Have Fun !

I'm going to quit wasting time.

Edited May 23, 2010 by ~jK~

[Marblehead]

Do you read what you write? It seems total confusion between one paragraph and the next.

Have Fun !

I'm going to quit wasting time.

 

Yes, I read what I write.

 

Sad that it is confusing to you.

 

Yes, please stop wasting your time reading the paragraphs because all it is doing is causing you confusion.

 

They will never appear the way you want them to appear.

 

But don't stop talking with me. We have, after all, had a couple worthwhile discussions.

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

Marblehead,

 

It might be an idea to put the original reference (section no. or whatever) as a footnote so people can look up their own favorite translations as well.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead,

 

It might be an idea to put the original reference (section no. or whatever) as a footnote so people can look up their own favorite translations as well.

 

You don't know how many time I have kicked my own butt for not referencing all the credits. Sad thing is is that it would be impossible for me to do that now because many of the sources were from a number of different libraries that I checked out over twenty years ago. Yes, I put this thing together over twenty years ago.

 

My intention was that it was a personal undertaking for only myself and I had no intention of sharing it with anyone.

 

Prior to my posting it here there were only two or three people I had shared it with.

 

The reason I decided to share it here was because I felt there was a lack of discussions of Taoism considering this forum is named "Tao Bums".

 

So to all of those who wish I had done a better job, I apologize. In my next life I promise to do better.

 

Peace & Love!

[~jK~]

You don't know how many time I have kicked my own butt for not referencing all the credits. Sad thing is is that it would be impossible for me to do that now because many of the sources were from a number of different libraries that I checked out over twenty years ago. Yes, I put this thing together over twenty years ago.

 

My intention was that it was a personal undertaking for only myself and I had no intention of sharing it with anyone.

 

Prior to my posting it here there were only two or three people I had shared it with.

 

The reason I decided to share it here was because I felt there was a lack of discussions of Taoism considering this forum is named "Tao Bums".

 

So to all of those who wish I had done a better job, I apologize. In my next life I promise to do better.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

I repeat:

Marble one,

The Tao was created to make Order from Chaos.

Now - it is your turn - I am curious where you are going with it.

Source:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/14417-the-coming-war-of-words-aimed-at-recreating-a-new-dark-ages-for-humanity/page__p__188468entry188468

[Apech]

...

 

The reason I decided to share it here was because I felt there was a lack of discussions of Taoism considering this forum is named "Tao Bums".

 

So to all of those who wish I had done a better job, I apologize. In my next life I promise to do better.

 

Peace & Love!

 

No need to apologize. You are right ... the amount of discussion about Taoism on here is limited ... most of it is about Qi Gong or alchemical techniques as well. Otherwise it seems to be endless threads about Buddhism.

 

Who knows what we will be in our next lives ... I think I know where I'm heading and you must promise not to swat me when I'm buzzing round the room.

[Marblehead]

Who knows what we will be in our next lives ... I think I know where I'm heading and you must promise not to swat me when I'm buzzing round the room.

 

Hehehe. Funny.

 

I promise to cause no harm. Afterall, how much harm can a butterfly do?

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

I repeat:

Marble one,

The Tao was created to make Order from Chaos.

Now - it is your turn - I am curious where you are going with it.

Source:

http://www.thetaobum...68entry188468

 

The Tao was created was it? By what or whom?

[Marblehead]

I repeat:

Marble one,

The Tao was created to make Order from Chaos.

Now - it is your turn - I am curious where you are going with it.

Source:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/14417-the-coming-war-of-words-aimed-at-recreating-a-new-dark-ages-for-humanity/page__p__188468entry188468

 

Your last posts to your thread were made while I was on break from this forum and I did not see them. I will respond to them over there.

 

However, to the "Toaist Philosophy" threads I am posting, where I am going with them is nowhere. I have no goal or destination. I am only presenting something that helped me further understand Taoist philosophy. If it helps others that would be great.

 

There are a total of 119 chapters plus the imaginary conversations between Lao Tzu and Confucius so we still have a way to go.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

The Tao was created was it? By what or whom?

 

Hehehe. Shame on you. I was able to resist making a similar remark.

 

Peace & Love!

[WhiteTiger]

No need to apologize. You are right ... the amount of discussion about Taoism on here is limited ... most of it is about Qi Gong or alchemical techniques as well. Otherwise it seems to be endless threads about Buddhism.

 

Who knows what we will be in our next lives ... I think I know where I'm heading and you must promise not to swat me when I'm buzzing round the room.

 

I don't mean to take this subject totally off topic although it has ran a different course then the original subject. It does seem however that often times good subjects or interesting ones definately go in this direction of running off its original course. I am however interested in peoples views/understandings of how Tai Chi is appart from Internal Alchemy as a seating practice and more importantly how is Internal Alchemical processes apart from Taoism itself?

 

Sincerely, wtiger

 

P.S. I am really hoping to get an answer from apepch7, Marblehead and ~jK~.

 

P.P.S. I have been really enjoying the conversations so far with Marblehead and ~jK~ and can't wait to read more.

Edited May 24, 2010 by WhiteTiger

[Marblehead]

I don't mean to take this subject totally off topic ...

 

Well, from my understanding All is Tao and All things run their natural course even though we sometimes do not understand the whys and hows of everything. So for this thread to include discussion of the questions you have asked are a result of natural processes.

 

I won't attempt to answer your questions because I do not have the proper knowledge to do so. There are many members here who are very qualified to speak to the questions. (Although the discussion might be better dealt with in a thread of its own.)

 

But back to Taoist Philosophy for a moment:

 

The word Tao is used as both a noun and a verb.

 

In the noun form we talk about all that is; Chi, Mystery, and Manifest. So here All is Tao.

 

However, in the verb form we talk about the Way (the processes) of All things and non-things. When we limit the discussion the the Way of man, we are talking about the Way man should live his/her life in order to live to his/her full potential. It has been said that we can loose the Tao (the Way). This thought immediately leads to a discussion of Te (Virtue) in that if we do not live according to good virtue we will loose the Way.

 

But a beautiful concept of Taoist philosophy is that we are never condemned. We may loose the Way but we can always return because Tao is ever present and always available to everyone. All we need do is change course.

 

Peace & Love!

[~jK~]

The Tao was created was it? By what or whom?

Read the book.

[the latest freed]

Hey, just now joining the conversation. I personally like the idea of presenting concepts of Taoist philosophy by juxtaposing sections from the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang Tzu that have similar meanings/subjects. It categorizes the philosophy in an easier-to-swallow way, and I completely agree that there just isn't enough discussion in other threads on Taoist philosophical ideas and texts. While the practices are important and good to discuss, I think there should be a solid strain of philosophical talk to guide the practical discussions so they don't veer off course. Anyway, I, like apepch7, wish the translations/chapters from each text were cited, but I recognize the ideas enough to know that the text Marblehead refers to are there somewhere.

 

Marblehead, I'm wondering if you'd mind me doing some research now and then to cite those texts that you refer to, just to give it more textual authority (whatever that's worth)? It wouldn't be a full-time or complete endeavor, but if I'm able to find what you're referring to now and then, I'd be happy to help. I, strangely, enjoy research. But if my effort isn't wanted or would belabor the discussion, I'll be happy to just discuss the ideas and leave well-enough alone.

 

Read the book.

By "book," are you referring to the Tao Te Ching or the Chuang Tzu or both? If you could find the section(s) where it says that the Tao was created by/from something, I think that would clarify the discussion. I'll see if I can find anything. I seem to have a vague recollection of something that says that the Tao--that is, the Way (as a path, a guide to life, a general presence/force)--manifested from Chaos or the Nothing, though I can't claim that with any conviction at the moment. But I think that any claim requires narrowing down what is meant by Tao--as a guide, as nature; or as the Nothing that resides behind the veil of creation, of the myriad things. If it's both, then the Tao wasn't created, unless you consider self-creation a form of creation by/from something; if it's the Nothing, then it wasn't created; if it's the observable Way or "the Force" (to borrow from Star Wars terminology), then it may be. I'm all about citing text to validate a statement, so if it can be found and posted, then that would be good. If not, then it's hard to argue that the claim is Taoist and not a particular personal belief. Either way, citing some text would be good to contextualize what is being said. And, as I said, I'll see if what I remember can be found anywhere or if I'm just making things up.

Edited May 24, 2010 by the latest freed

[the latest freed]

I figured I'd go ahead and cite these for the sake of discussion in this thread. Hope no one minds. I couldn't find the exact translations, but Marblehead's wording is similar enough to the various translations I own and others I found online.

 

My words are very easy to understand

And to put into practice,

Yet few in the world

Are capable of understanding them

And putting them into practice.

--TTC, Ch. 70 (beginning of the chapter)

 

While the crowd is feasting at a great sacrifice

Or going up to the terraces

For the springtime festivities,

I remain alone in impassive immobility,

Like an infant who has not yet learned how to smile;

I am like a homeless wretch.

 

While others have more than enough,

I alone seem to have lost everything.

 

How stupid I look!

How boorish!

How brilliant the people are!

I alone am dull.

How self-assured they are!

I alone am vacillating.

 

They all have some particular talent,

I alone am as ignorant as a churl.

 

Different from the others,

I alone prefer to suck my Mother’s breast.

--TTC, Ch. 20 (middle-ish to the end)

 

Therefore the Holy Man dresses in homespun

But hides a jade within his bosom.

--TTC, Ch. 70 (last two lines)

 

My Master said, “That which acts on all and meddles in none; that is Heaven. The Kingly Man realizes this, hides it in his heart, grows boundless, wide-minded, drawing all to himself. And so he lets the gold lie hidden in the mountain, leaves the pearl lying in the deep. Goods and possessions are no gain in his eyes, he stays far from wealth and honor. Long life is no ground for joy, nor early death for sorrow. Success is not for him to be proud of, failure is no shame. Had he all the world’s power he would not hold it as his own, if he conquered everything he would not take it to himself. His glory is in knowing all things come together in One and life and death are equal.”

--Chuang Tzu, Ch. 12 (see: "Wandering on the Way...", and 2. in another Chuang Tzu link)

Edited May 24, 2010 by the latest freed