An explanation of why one must keep one's own mystical state and intoxication hidden from the ignorant

[al.]

'Listen to what Hakim Sana'i said:

 

"Rest where you drank your wine your drunken head!"

 

For from the tavern if a drunk should stray

 

He'll seem a clown with whom the children play:

 

He'll tumble into puddles everywhere

 

And all the wretches will laugh, point, and stare;

 

They'll follow him because he's strange and new

 

Although of drunkenness they have no clue.

 

Except those drunk in God, men are just boys,

 

Mature men flee their passions and their toys:

 

God said, 'The world is just a toy, and you

 

Are merely children'- what God says is true!

 

You keep bringing toys down from the shelf-

 

You won't gain wisdom til you slay your self!

 

Lust here's like infants having sex, my friend,

 

Compared with what's there at the other end:

 

What's infant sex? Play-acting that brings laughter

 

Compared with sex by Rostam or a martyr;

 

The wars of men are like an infant's fight

 

Meaningless, senseless, base, without real might:

 

They brandish wooden swords and then take aim,

 

But there's no point or meaning to their game:

 

They ride a length of wood just like at school,

 

Saying, 'Here's Boraq, and here's the Prophet's mule!'

 

They carry it themselves, but stupidly

 

They think they're being borne majestically-

 

Wait til the day those borne by God should race

 

Beyond the nine-tiered heavens at great pace:

 

Spirits and angels to Him will ascend-

 

And make the heavens shake from end to end.

 

Children, you ride your skirts and run the course,

 

Clutching the hem to make it seem a horse,

 

Opinion does not free you from all need-

 

You won't reach heaven on your reasoning's steed:

 

Relying on the stronger point of view

 

Don't doubt the sun when it's in front of you!

 

It's time now to look down at your own steed-

 

You've made it from your own two feet, take heed!

 

Your every feeling, fancy, sense, and care

 

Is like the children's wooden horse, beware!

 

Knowledge of mystics was the steed they rode,

 

Knowledge of sensual men an extra load.

 

Heart knowledge helps you when it fills you there,

 

But other knowledge is a cross to bear:

 

'Like asses carrying their books,' God said,

 

Knowledge that's not from him wears down your head!

 

It has no meaning- shell without a core,

 

It doesn't last, like make-up on a whore!

 

But when you bear the burden well, it will

 

Be taken off and you'll feel such a thrill,

 

So don't bear knowledge for your own sake. friend,

 

And you'll find inner knowledge in the end-

 

Then you may ride on knowledge's fast steed

 

And watch the load fall off and your soul freed.

[sifusufi]

Right! Remember Shams.

 

I thought this is fun...

 

A detailed Summary of Ali

 

"I am the greatest!!! I'm young; I'm handsome; I'm fast. I can't possibly be beat. They all must fall in the round I call. I should be a postage stamp. That's the only way I'll ever get licked. The heavyweight champion of the world should be pretty like me. It ain't bragging if you can back it up. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. I'm so mean, I make medicine sick. I shook up the world.

 

Me! Whee!!!." *

 

"These words come from the mouth of Muhammad Ali. If you ever hear a man speak of himself in such a way, it makes you wonder. It makes you wonder if he has the right to speak the way he does. It makes you wonder if people accept him without any hostility. It makes you wonder what is so special about this person. If anybody, Muhammad Ali is the man that has the right to speak the way he does. In the boxing ring, he was feared and respected for his accomplishments. However, Muhammad Ali was known for his ego. It was an ego that people both loved and hated but also an ego which ended his career twice. Even with this ego of his, Ali always had a way of pulling in people with his sarcastic humor and charm. He was simply a man that had to be loved and respected by everybody. Ali loved life and everything about it."

 

 

*=Shortest poem!

 

Thought I'd borrow this as food for thought, just a thought.

 

WWTD (What would Tyson do?) Yea Right!??? How could you ever measure that?

[goldisheavy]

I don't agree with this anti-reason slant. Everything is interdependent. Mystery depends on reason. Reason on mystery. To reject one in order to reach the other is like to cut off your left hand in order to gain control of the right hand -- it is senseless maiming.

[vsaluki]

I don't agree with this anti-reason slant. Everything is interdependent. Mystery depends on reason. Reason on mystery. To reject one in order to reach the other is like to cut off your left hand in order to gain control of the right hand -- it is senseless maiming.

 

It's important to understand that you can't find god through reason. This is an important theme in both Tao and Zen. The point of the koan is to teach you that reason has limits. Reason is abstract and symbolic. Tao or the experience of god is not at all sybolic. It is direct. For example, try to explain the feeling of love using reason. No explanation will ever help you get the insight that you get from the experience. Furthermore, if you try to reason about love - how you should find it, what it should be like, what you can expect - you are likely to prevent it from happening.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I don't agree with this anti-reason slant. Everything is interdependent. Mystery depends on reason. Reason on mystery. To reject one in order to reach the other is like to cut off your left hand in order to gain control of the right hand -- it is senseless maiming.

 

Sorry, Mystery is that in the universe which cannot be known or explained. It is the opposite of this statement: "Given enough time, everything in the Universe can be known and understood through Reason (Science, Logic, etc.)."

 

An example of Mystery in modern life is that of synchronicity and serendipitous co-incidental events.

[3bob]

not sure of definitions going around with this string....

 

but I'd say that the universe as all that is created, maintained, and destroyed (thus aspects of "mind") can be known with purity of mind, although its source can not be known in the same way because it's not of mind - pure or otherwise.

 

Om

[~jK~]

No need to repeat

Edited May 27, 2010 by ~jK~

[~jK~]

'Listen to what Hakim Sana'i said:

 

"Rest where you drank your wine your drunken head!"

 

For from the tavern if a drunk should stray

 

He'll seem a clown with whom the children play:

 

He'll tumble into puddles everywhere

 

And all the wretches will laugh, point, and stare;

 

They'll follow him because he's strange and new

 

Although of drunkenness they have no clue.

 

Except those drunk in God, men are just boys,

 

Mature men flee their passions and their toys:

 

God said, 'The world is just a toy, and you

 

Are merely children'- what God says is true!

 

You keep bringing toys down from the shelf-

 

You won't gain wisdom til you slay your self!

 

Lust here's like infants having sex, my friend,

 

Compared with what's there at the other end:

 

What's infant sex? Play-acting that brings laughter

 

Compared with sex by Rostam or a martyr;

 

The wars of men are like an infant's fight

 

Meaningless, senseless, base, without real might:

 

They brandish wooden swords and then take aim,

 

But there's no point or meaning to their game:

 

They ride a length of wood just like at school,

 

Saying, 'Here's Boraq, and here's the Prophet's mule!'

 

They carry it themselves, but stupidly

 

They think they're being borne majestically-

 

Wait til the day those borne by God should race

 

Beyond the nine-tiered heavens at great pace:

 

Spirits and angels to Him will ascend-

 

And make the heavens shake from end to end.

 

Children, you ride your skirts and run the course,

 

Clutching the hem to make it seem a horse,

 

Opinion does not free you from all need-

 

You won't reach heaven on your reasoning's steed:

 

Relying on the stronger point of view

 

Don't doubt the sun when it's in front of you!

 

It's time now to look down at your own steed-

 

You've made it from your own two feet, take heed!

 

Your every feeling, fancy, sense, and care

 

Is like the children's wooden horse, beware!

 

Knowledge of mystics was the steed they rode,

 

Knowledge of sensual men an extra load.

 

Heart knowledge helps you when it fills you there,

 

But other knowledge is a cross to bear:

 

'Like asses carrying their books,' God said,

 

Knowledge that's not from him wears down your head!

 

It has no meaning- shell without a core,

 

It doesn't last, like make-up on a whore!

 

But when you bear the burden well, it will

 

Be taken off and you'll feel such a thrill,

 

So don't bear knowledge for your own sake. friend,

 

And you'll find inner knowledge in the end-

 

Then you may ride on knowledge's fast steed

 

And watch the load fall off and your soul freed.

Preaching Religion?

A return of the dark ages where there is no Science?

Very Sad but expected

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/14417-the-coming-war-of-words-aimed-at-recreating-a-new-dark-ages-for-humanity/page__st__20

[/size]

[~jK~]

Right! Remember Shams.

 

I thought this is fun...

 

A detailed Summary of Ali

 

"I am the greatest!!! I'm young; I'm handsome; I'm fast. I can't possibly be beat. They all must fall in the round I call. I should be a postage stamp. That's the only way I'll ever get licked. The heavyweight champion of the world should be pretty like me. It ain't bragging if you can back it up. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. I'm so mean, I make medicine sick. I shook up the world.

 

Me! Whee!!!." *

 

"These words come from the mouth of Muhammad Ali. If you ever hear a man speak of himself in such a way, it makes you wonder. It makes you wonder if he has the right to speak the way he does. It makes you wonder if people accept him without any hostility. It makes you wonder what is so special about this person. If anybody, Muhammad Ali is the man that has the right to speak the way he does. In the boxing ring, he was feared and respected for his accomplishments. However, Muhammad Ali was known for his ego. It was an ego that people both loved and hated but also an ego which ended his career twice. Even with this ego of his, Ali always had a way of pulling in people with his sarcastic humor and charm. He was simply a man that had to be loved and respected by everybody. Ali loved life and everything about it."

 

 

*=Shortest poem!

 

Thought I'd borrow this as food for thought, just a thought.

 

WWTD (What would Tyson do?) Yea Right!??? How could you ever measure that?

Preaching Religion?

A return of the dark ages where there is no Science?

Very Sad but expected

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/14417-the-coming-war-of-words-aimed-at-recreating-a-new-dark-ages-for-humanity/page__st__20

[/size]

[goldisheavy]

It's important to understand that you can't find god through reason.

 

Reason is what we use to understand, for one. Two, yes, you can find a spiritual truth through reason.

 

This is an important theme in both Tao and Zen. The point of the koan is to teach you that reason has limits. Reason is abstract and symbolic. Tao or the experience of god is not at all sybolic.

 

Wrong. All experiences are symbolic. You just don't understand the nature of symbols yet.

 

It is direct.

 

Wrong again. There is no such thing as an indirect experience. All experiences are direct.

 

For example, try to explain the feeling of love using reason. No explanation will ever help you get the insight that you get from the experience. Furthermore, if you try to reason about love - how you should find it, what it should be like, what you can expect - you are likely to prevent it from happening.

 

You have to know how to employ reason. Reason is not something that generates stories. Reason is that which, through analysis, can dissolve stories.

Edited May 27, 2010 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Sorry, Mystery is that in the universe which cannot be known or explained. It is the opposite of this statement: "Given enough time, everything in the Universe can be known and understood through Reason (Science, Logic, etc.)."

 

An example of Mystery in modern life is that of synchronicity and serendipitous co-incidental events.

 

That's how I understand mystery as well.

[~jK~]

It's important to understand that you can't find god through reason. This is an important theme in both Tao and Zen. The point of the koan is to teach you that reason has limits. Reason is abstract and symbolic. Tao or the experience of god is not at all sybolic. It is direct. For example, try to explain the feeling of love using reason. No explanation will ever help you get the insight that you get from the experience. Furthermore, if you try to reason about love - how you should find it, what it should be like, what you can expect - you are likely to prevent it from happening.

The answer for why you cannot find god is that there is no supernatural, mythical being.

AKA:

There is No God

Preaching Religion?

A return of the dark ages where there is no Science?

Very Sad but expected

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/14417-the-coming-war-of-words-aimed-at-recreating-a-new-dark-ages-for-humanity/page__st__20

[/size]

[fizix]

God is just another name of Tao. Many know of "God" but very few know of Tao. JK knows only himself as god.

[sifusufi]

"What really raises one's indignation against suffering is not suffering intrinsically, but the senselessness of suffering."

Friedrich Nietzsche

(1844 - 1900)

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jES5EUQMppY

 

[sifusufi]

[sifusufi]

[goldisheavy]

sifusufi, you need to stop spamming.

[sifusufi]

sifusufi, you need to stop spamming.

But of course

[Sunya]

It's important to understand that you can't find god through reason. This is an important theme in both Tao and Zen. The point of the koan is to teach you that reason has limits. Reason is abstract and symbolic. Tao or the experience of god is not at all sybolic. It is direct. For example, try to explain the feeling of love using reason. No explanation will ever help you get the insight that you get from the experience. Furthermore, if you try to reason about love - how you should find it, what it should be like, what you can expect - you are likely to prevent it from happening.

 

Zen is not anti-reason, at least it shouldn't be, but Taoism might be... depends on who you ask.

 

Anyway, your argument is flawed. Not being able to explain love through words doesn't mean that love is beyond reason, or better than reason. I'll argue that without reason you wouldn't know what love is. It would be just a pleasure sensation to you. Thanks to reason, you know that love is an incredible thing. We fantasize about love, romanticize, write poetry etc. all using reason. All of this makes love much more special than it actually is. And selfless compassion, not just obsession or attachment (not romantic love) , requires reason. What separates us from animals is reason. Do animals love? Not selflessly. They only love their own kin.

 

Humans are able to selflessly love and be compassionate because, thanks to reason, we are able to analyze experience. I see reason as a necessity. It is the doorway between feelings, sensations, pleasures (all which animals possess) on the one hand and non-conceptual experience on the other (what you might call Tao). To surrender to Tao requires the thought 'I will let go because Tao is my true nature.' Without that intention there is no experience of Tao.

Edited May 27, 2010 by mikaelz

[al.]

ah, i think you might all be right, each point is valid from the angle it is given.

sifusufi seems to be rolling with ecstatic fervour! i bow to you, roll on!

 

the talk of reason, love and God seems to be chewing on the words. the verses could easily be taken out of context, for indeed they are out of context, and could therefore been misconstrued if one's definitions are too fixed.

 

the discussion is apt though, for this is the theme!

 

once thoroughly drunk and intoxicated, we forget what intelligence we might of thought we had and coming to a knowing that is not our own...

 

 

 

as a side thought, is there an aspect of qi that has an innate intelligence?

[thelerner]

Seems to me you need both, reasoning and sacred emptiness. Reasoning is easy, especially when poor, its second nature to us, we live in our heads. Emptiness can be easy, turn on the TV, listen to music, space out.. but there is a sacred emptiness that's hard; thoughts and reasoning impede it. Within it the questions of God and Philosophy are answered because they don't exist.

 

Emptiness, emptiness m t n e s whack whack whack

 

 

my 2 cents

 

Michael

[RyanO]

Mysticism isn't irrational. It's non-rational.

[vsaluki]

The answer for why you cannot find god is that there is no supernatural, mythical being.

AKA: [size="3

 

I'm not using the term "god" in the Judeo Christian sense.

[vsaluki]

I'll argue that without reason you wouldn't know what love is. It would be just a pleasure sensation to you.

 

I take that to mean that you believe that you don't know what something is unless you know the symbol or word for it. I would disagree. And the sensation is a sensation that I could distinguish from other sensations without knowing the symbol for the sensation. I would argue that poetry does nothing to enhance love. It only romanticises it to be other than what it really is. Such poetry is simply food for the ego.

 

Another important thing to consider is that reason demands that you parse the world into things that you can identify. Things that you can reduce to simpler things and make generalizations about. Items that you can transfer information about or mentally manipulate information about. This all goes against actually experiencing the world as a unity.

 

Tao Teh Ching #19

 

Hua-Ching Ni translation

 

End the endless search

for segmented, intellectual knowledge,

and set your mind above worry and vexation.

Edited May 28, 2010 by vsaluki

[vsaluki]

Tao Teh Ching #71

 

Hua-Ching Ni Translation:

 

"He who regards his intellectual knowledge

as ignorance has deep insight.

He who overrates his intellectual achievement

as definite truth is deeply sick.

Only when one is sick of this sickness

can one cease to be sick.

One who returns his mind to the simplicity

of the subtle truth

is not sick"