Vasectomies

[Ryan T.]

I understand the argument that MPG is saying. He says he is upfront with his not wanting children and that should be "enough" honesty. I just think it is only part of the psychology of the relationship.

 

I think most people would agree that when you get into a relationship even though you are told the way something "is" you still have a hope that it may change with that person in the future. Anyone who doesn't recognize every person's idea that eventually the other person will come around an idea has not looked at their relationships very closely.

 

So to say "Well I told her up front that I didn't want kids" is not enough if we honestly are looking at the situation and honestly care about the other person's feelings.

 

An argument can be made that says well it doesn't matter if she thought I would change my mind because I told her my stance on the issue. But she doesn't understand how made up your mind is until she knows that you physically altered yourself to make sure that it could NEVER happen.

 

The way this seems to keep getting stated is that MPG has had a woman/women leave him once they find/found out that he was sterilized so his rationale is that by not being forthright about his sterilization he is able to keep them in the relationship. Would not the flip of that being a woman who gets pregnant to keep the man in the relationship? Both situations seem self-serving at best.

 

I sense a fair amount of pain around the issue for MPG so I can't say that he is absolutely incorrect to take this stance. We tend to protect ourselves when we suffer these types of emotional traumas. But we also need to go back later and look at the situation and see if it is has at all altered our moral compass.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Ryan T.

[Enishi]

Avoiding getting trapped into several decades of indentured slavery by someone who might not even feel geuine attraction to me is a major reason that I'm considering the snippy snip option.

 

I do think though that it's better to be honest from the outset. Waiting until one is with a partner and she agrees to your choices might also be a good idea as well. If a woman feels less attraction to you as a result of the vasectomy, she probably wasn't all that interested in "you" (the beta ATM spermdoner) anyway.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Enishi

[Thunder_Gooch]

Dreaming,

 

I don't honestly expect to find a girl who shares my dreams, I'm not sure such a creature even exists. Even if I found her I doubt I would tell her I was sterile. Telling someone firmly "I don't ever want children", is plenty of info for them to make their own decisions. If they have decided to get pregnant irregardless of your wishes they have no reason to complain later when they can't. I cannot honestly think of a valid reason why it should matter unless they are planning not to respect your wishes anyway.

You say this equates to serious trust issues, but I say you are being naive and idealistic about relationships. You have some idealistic and romanticized notion of love, which as far as I can tell doesn't actually exist in this world. Wasn't it Pat Benatar that said love is a battlefield? She was right it is a battlefield.

 

I guess what I am seeking isn't love, it's a partner who's sole purpose for living is transcendence, someone who becomes a friend/companion and shares a common purpose. I'd like that person to be a pretty girl so we could share a fun sexual relationship as well, but honestly I'd settle for non sexual relationship with a male best friend as well.

 

Pie,

If you only want to get into a relationship with a woman who shares your dreams and aspirations, then wouldn't honesty be an easy way to find out? In fact it's the only way. If you say you're sterile and she bails then she's just shown that she's not a good enough match for you. If you choose to withhold such life-changing information, then you are showing that you don't really care if she's a good match and just want to get laid.

 

If a woman leaves because you've had a vasectomy then that means your wishes' were too different for your relationship to prosper. If you withhold that information because you think she'll leave you over it, then you're proving that you don't really care what she wants out of life as long as you get what you want from her.

 

You're now advising other people to disregard the deepest dreams and aspirations of the people they're supposed to care about most!? How can you claim to love someone when clearly you couldn't care less what they want or how they feel? And your excuse is basically that you'd rather get them before they get you! That is childish and selfish in the extreme. Assuming that all women will simply trick you rather than leave demonstrates some rather serious trust issues.

[Dreamingawake]

Pie I feel for your situation but what you're talking about isn't honesty no matter how many times you try to say it is. No matter how you try to pretty it up you've already said that your reason for withholding this information is because a woman will leave you if they find out. So you admit that you are hiding 'deal-breaker' level information in an attempt to keep a woman in a relationship that they would not want if they knew the truth and that isn't right for them.

 

If it's important enough for them to leave you over it then they SHOULDN'T be with you and need to leave. Your explanation still equates to 'it's better than getting tricked into a baby, well guess what? You've got a vasectomy and can't be tricked! It's already done. If she wants to trick you into a baby then WHY WOULD YOU WANT HER? If she wants to leave so she can have a baby then why would you want her to stay and give up what she wants most? This is clear evidence that you only want too keep a woman for sex and don't care what she want's in her life.

 

If you would only want a woman who is seeking only 'transcendence' then why wouldn't you tell her you got the snip? If she's fine with it then you've found the woman you're describing and if she leaves then she wasn't the one you were looking for anyway and you should be happy she's gone. Your stated goals and your actions don't line up. You SAY you only want a woman whose after transcendence, but you ACT like you just want to trick her into being your fuck-buddy, and calling me naive and idealistic wont change that.

 

The ONLY reason you would withhold info that would make them leave is to keep them. Why would you want to keep a woman in a relationship she doesn't really want? If you decide to keep you're women as prisoners of war then yes, love will ALWAYS be a battlefield for you. Any woman held in a relationship this way will eventually find the truth but how much of their lives will they have wasted on you first? How hurt and angry do you suppose they might be when they've clearly wasted a piece of their lives on a 'man' who doesn't have the balls to tell them they should leave if they really want a baby?

 

You've already answered your own bold print but here, I'll spell it out for you. A valid reason why it should matter is because they might realize you're never going to change your mind and leave you to go get what they want I know LOTS of women who don't want children but many of them are open to the idea that they MIGHT change their minds later. If all you tell a woman is 'I don't want kids' then they might stay thinking you could change your mind too.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Dreaming,

 

I am just being pragmatic, realistic and sensible about the situation. This situation is this, most young healthy women who haven't had children, want them. They are more than happy to date men who don't want children because it doesn't really matter what the men want as it's the women that usually have control over reproduction. Being open about your sterility is going to limit your options severely in terms of potential mates, mostly down to women with children, and women past menopause. If you have ethical qualms with omitting your sterility status then don't have a vasectomy or be open about it and settle for older women with children or who have passed menopause. There is no sense in raking me over the coals for being brutally honest about the situation.

 

You say I just want sex, that's not the case. I am a hermit, and I keep to myself I am not even looking for sex just to be left alone. People and women in particular just annoy the piss out of me. I really just prefer being left alone. It would be nice to find a partner who's shares the same dreams, but I'm not optimistic about finding such a person. I am just giving advice based on my experiences. I was open about my sterility and it was instant rejection both times. I won't make that mistake again, if a situation like that arises in the future. If that makes me some unethical, evil, douche-bag, player as you suggest then I guess that's what I am.

 

Pie I feel for your situation but what you're talking about isn't honesty no matter how many times you try to say it is. No matter how you try to pretty it up you've already said that your reason for withholding this information is because a woman will leave you if they find out. So you admit that you are hiding 'deal-breaker' level information in an attempt to keep a woman in a relationship that they would not want if they knew the truth and that isn't right for them.

 

If it's important enough for them to leave you over it then they SHOULDN'T be with you and need to leave. Your explanation still equates to 'it's better than getting tricked into a baby, well guess what? You've got a vasectomy and can't be tricked! It's already done. If she wants to trick you into a baby then WHY WOULD YOU WANT HER? If she wants to leave so she can have a baby then why would you want her to stay and give up what she wants most? This is clear evidence that you only want too keep a woman for sex and don't care what she want's in her life.

 

If you would only want a woman who is seeking only 'transcendence' then why wouldn't you tell her you got the snip? If she's fine with it then you've found the woman you're describing and if she leaves then she wasn't the one you were looking for anyway and you should be happy she's gone. Your stated goals and your actions don't line up. You SAY you only want a woman whose after transcendence, but you ACT like you just want to trick her into being your fuck-buddy, and calling me naive and idealistic wont change that.

 

The ONLY reason you would withhold info that would make them leave is to keep them. Why would you want to keep a woman in a relationship she doesn't really want? If you decide to keep you're women as prisoners of war then yes, love will ALWAYS be a battlefield for you. Any woman held in a relationship this way will eventually find the truth but how much of their lives will they have wasted on you first? How hurt and angry do you suppose they might be when they've clearly wasted a piece of their lives on a 'man' who doesn't have the balls to tell them they should leave if they really want a baby?

 

You've already answered your own bold print but here, I'll spell it out for you. A valid reason why it should matter is because they might realize you're never going to change your mind and leave you to go get what they want I know LOTS of women who don't want children but many of them are open to the idea that they MIGHT change their minds later. If all you tell a woman is 'I don't want kids' then they might stay thinking you could change your mind too.

Edited May 29, 2010 by More_Pie_Guy

[Dreamingawake]

You're not being 'brutally honest' and you're not being pragmatic. Pragmatic would be only getting into relationships with women that want to be with you. Tricking a woman into a relationship that is other than what she is really looking for is not practical or pragmatic, nor is it in any way 'honest.' If you wanted kids and a big family then sterility would be a deal-breaker and you would go be with another woman.

 

You're saying to hide a huge detail about oneself because a woman may not like it. So maybe women should hide a huge detail about themselves too if they think men wont like it? Maybe if a woman already has kids she should omit that fact because she believes that EVERY guy is going to dump her when he finds out. Does this sound 'honest' to you? Your failing to tell a woman you're sterile is no more honest than a woman who fails to tell you she stopped taking birth control. But hey her medical info is none of your business right? That was your excuse a few posts back.

 

Ok so you admitted sterility twice and both times they left. That should tell you those two women wanted children and you don't. That is a perfect reason to end a relationship and you should be GLAD they left. But you don't really care what they want as long as you get what you want. How is that any different from the woman who stops taking the pill? She doesn't care that you don't want to be a father as long as she gets a baby from you. And you don't care that she wants to be a mother as long as you can get her to keep screwing you.

 

You can say it's not about sex all you want but you already said you're still close friends with the first girl. You're still close, you're just not having sex. If you don't care about sex then what's the problem? What have you lost exactly? I'm willing to bet the girl still loves you, she just wants kids and you don't. You didn't get rejected you just had different wishes. So again, what have you lost besides sex?

[Thunder_Gooch]

Dreaming,

 

Everything has consequences, I was giving my advice on the consequences of a vasectomy. If you have a vasectomy and feel obligated to be open about it, be prepared to be unlovable by young healthy women who want children. You will most likely be limited to singles mothers with children, and post menopausal women. Maybe you will be able to find someone who can accept your sterility, but I am certain it's going to make your job of finding a mate a lot harder being open about it.

 

 

It's my opinion that my sterility is my business, no one else's. Telling a female firmly that "I never want children" should in theory be sufficient, unless it's her goal to get pregnant anyway. You seem to have some moral disagreement with me on this issue, fine. I don't have any moral qualms with keeping my vasectomy a personal affair. If that makes me a selfish immoral bastard so be it.

 

 

I'm still friends with the girl, but not closely. My family and my teacher are the only people I am truly close to.

 

 

All of this arguing however seems to be rather moot as I personally am not looking for any type of relationship, sexual or otherwise. I highly doubt there is any female on this earth that I could truly love. I want a training partner, someone who's psyche mirrors mine. As far as I know that person doesn't exist. The whole reason I got a vasectomy to begin with was I do not ever want children, and I was forced to make a choice between sterilization and fatherhood.

 

 

 

You're not being 'brutally honest' and you're not being pragmatic. Pragmatic would be only getting into relationships with women that want to be with you. Tricking a woman into a relationship that is other than what she is really looking for is not practical or pragmatic, nor is it in any way 'honest.' If you wanted kids and a big family then sterility would be a deal-breaker and you would go be with another woman.

 

You're saying to hide a huge detail about oneself because a woman may not like it. So maybe women should hide a huge detail about themselves too if they think men wont like it? Maybe if a woman already has kids she should omit that fact because she believes that EVERY guy is going to dump her when he finds out. Does this sound 'honest' to you? Your failing to tell a woman you're sterile is no more honest than a woman who fails to tell you she stopped taking birth control. But hey her medical info is none of your business right? That was your excuse a few posts back.

 

Ok so you admitted sterility twice and both times they left. That should tell you those two women wanted children and you don't. That is a perfect reason to end a relationship and you should be GLAD they left. But you don't really care what they want as long as you get what you want. How is that any different from the woman who stops taking the pill? She doesn't care that you don't want to be a father as long as she gets a baby from you. And you don't care that she wants to be a mother as long as you can get her to keep screwing you.

 

You can say it's not about sex all you want but you already said you're still close friends with the first girl. You're still close, you're just not having sex. If you don't care about sex then what's the problem? What have you lost exactly? I'm willing to bet the girl still loves you, she just wants kids and you don't. You didn't get rejected you just had different wishes. So again, what have you lost besides sex?

[Dreamingawake]

You do realize babies can happen when you have sex right? I assume that's why you got the vasectomy. If you don't want a sexual relationship then why get snipped? If you don't have sex you can't be a father. If you're not in a sexual relationship and your woman would be just a training partner then why would she leave you if she found out? Again, your actions and choices do not line up with your stated reasons and excuses. Transcendent masters throughout history have been know for their compassion, not for their selfish deceit.

 

Furthermore, your understanding of women seems to be extremely naive, narrow and limited. I know many women who do not want kids and my girlfriend works with at least a dozen women who wish their boyfriends/husbands would get a vasectomy so they could get off birth control. (Birth control can have some rather nasty/fatal side effects with very long term use)

 

I'll ask again: How is your failing to tell a woman you're sterile any more honest than a woman who fails to tell you she stopped taking birth control?. You saying that it's trickery and lying when a woman omits her lack of birth control but it's total honesty when you omit your vasectomy is total hypocrisy. How many transcendent masters were known to be blatant hypocrites?

 

If you want to lie and hurt women to get laid, you certainly wont be the first. Just please don't try to pretend like there is any justification for it and please don't try to convince other people to do the same. Your stated decisions have a huge potential to emotionally damage another human being, and aren't even close to practical for keeping anything more than a short-term f**kbuddy.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

A relationship is about relating. Lack of honesty in such a matter as this basically means you're using her. Same deal if she's trying to trap you into becoming pregnant. If you can't be honest, there is no trust, the "relationship" is built on a lie, and more lies are soon to follow. A spiritual being should tell her the truth and then move on if she wants to have children.

[Guest paul walter]

paul,

 

I had my vasectomy because my girlfriend at the time was talking about babies non stop, her clock had started ticking and I knew it. I don't want children, so I opted to have a vasectomy and removed the possibility of having them. It's not about screwing without consequence, it's more due diligence.

 

I think it's more of a power struggle issue, deciding when a child is conceived is usually up to the female and the male has no say in the matter whether he wants to have a child or not. When a male has a vasectomy he takes back control over when or if children are born. I don't think many women much like that shift in power in the relationship.

 

I've been single since my last girlfriend and am I am not really looking for any sort of relationship sexual or otherwise. I'd like to find my soul mate, but I've never met a woman who shares my dreams.

 

 

 

Of course my comments were directed at Einshi. One of the 'hidden' problems in your post reveals the power disparity between men and women which is essentially something that can't be worked out til society in its present form disappears. The truth of the matter is that women hold ultimate power because they are often the ones (victims?) who rely on and flaunt the moral system that a society is based on--there's no honour (or self-regulation/responsibility) in this, only the oppurtunity for power dynamics. It's a given that the one who perceives themselves as victims (in this society it's women, children aren't yet allowed that 'right') have carte blanche over how they act with little regard for the effect it has on others because of the perceived power imbalance that gave rise to it in the first place and the 'redressing' of the balance the 'victim' thinks is their right to act upon. Personally, i don't see how any relationship involving sex or need is possible these days (if ever?). Paul

[Thunder_Gooch]

You do realize babies can happen when you have sex right?

 

Yes, but thanks for the reminder.

 

 

 

I assume that's why you got the vasectomy.

 

Your powers of deduction astound me.

 

 

 

If you don't want a sexual relationship then why get snipped?

 

It's not that I don't want a sexual relationship so much as I'm not actively seeking one. Life seems easier alone. I am really not looking for anything serious unless I stumble upon someone who has the same burning passions inside that I do. Sex with some gorgeous intelligent 20's something would be totally awesome though. I probably wouldn't turn it down if was offered on a no strings basis. That however is certainly not something I am actively looking for.

 

Onto why I got "snipped"; I had found a girl I thought was my soul mate, she claimed to share my dreams and goals in life, when we moved in together it became clear that that really wasn't the case. Talk of babies and her aversion to all methods of birth control save for withdrawl soon followed. I took matters into my own hands and had a vasectomy to insure I didn't become a father. She left before I had even had time to heal from my operation.

 

 

If you don't have sex you can't be a father.

 

Usually that's the way it works, sperm banking and artificial insemination logically invalidate this statement however. True story and semi relevant, in high-school at a party where multiple couples were having sex. I went to the bathroom to flush my condom, a girl that was infatuated with me went to the bathroom thinking I had thrown it away and mistakenly grabbed another persons condom in the garbage to try to inseminate herself with it. As far as I know no child came of it it but it's just testament to how far a woman who wants your child will go.

 

 

 

Transcendent masters throughout history have been know for their compassion, not for their selfish deceit.

 

Hogwash! Transcendence has absolutely nothing to do with morality or lack there of, it is purely a measure of your energetic development. You could slaughter hundreds of people, women and children in cold blood and it have no bearing whatsoever on your level of developmental. Read the magus of java page 61 if you don't believe me.

 

 

If you're not in a sexual relationship and your woman would be just a training partner then why would she leave you if she found out?

 

I'm not in any type of relationship and I'm not seeking one, sexual or otherwise. However If I found a training partner it would be nice if "she" were a young attractive and healthy female and we shared an awesome sex life. Sex isn't mission critical, though it would be a nice addition. I could deal with a non sexual relationship with a fellow male friend who feels the same calling as I do. A companion, training partner and someone who fervently shares my dreams is mostly what I would want if I were to be in a relationship even if it was just a platonic friendship.

 

To answer your question as to why she "might" leave, is that on a biological level all women have a hardwired innate and incredibly strong drive to reproduce. I would go as far to say their drive for reproduction exceeds the sex drive of men. Whether a woman is aware of it on a conscious level or not is irrelevant, telling her you are sterile fundamentally changes the way she is going to feel about you at a subconscious level.

 

It's never the same after that, I'd venture to guess it would be something on the level of confiding you had a heroine abuse problem many years ago but have since been sober, or that you had a schizophrenic break from reality in your early teens, but no subsequent relapses. Things like that I'd assume you wouldn't share with other people no matter how much you loved them, or at least I sure as hell wouldn't. If you feel morally obligated though to emotionally regurgitate all your skeletons onto your significant other to be absolutely sure they won't leave you as a result then have at it man.... have at it. I'd say you were pretty stupid myself but hey what do I know, I'm just some old cynical selfish bastard.

 

I also would like to flip the question back on you, why would you tell someone you are only in a platonic friendship with your medical history as there is no valid reason for them to know. Yo ted, I just had had a colonoscopy and they cut out all these hundreds of polyps with a laser, smelled like burn't flesh and man I must have farted 100 cubic meters worth of air WOO HOO! These sort of things, you just don't share with people, well unless you are just retarded.

 

 

Furthermore, your understanding of women seems to be extremely naive, narrow and limited.

 

Funny your quaint notions of true love, and your quixotic quest for absolute love, trust and openness seem to indicate the same. My understanding comes solely from my observations, and I've observed quite a bit.

 

 

How is your failing to tell a woman you're sterile any more honest than a woman who fails to tell you she stopped taking birth control?

 

Dating a man who you know does not want kids, then consciously and deliberately becoming impregnated is absolutely pure evil, plain and simple. I can honestly say I get sick to my stomach to imagine this scenario playing out for some poor sod. There is something fundamentally sick about this. I've had the I'm having your baby card pulled on me a few times, those feelings of utter horror, entrapment and impending doom aren't something I'd wish on even my worst enemy.

 

Sitting your loved one down and explaining in a firm and thorough manner that you never ever want children, and she needs to be with someone else if she wants them, but omitting the fact you can't have children is a non issue. You've done nothing wrong. There is absolutely nothing immoral about that. She knows you don't want kids, if your sterility would factor in it means she had ulterior motives to begin with.

 

I honestly can't believe you are even equating these scenarios as being on the same level, they are orders of magnitude apart. I think my eye just popped out of my socket at the sheer stupidity. Please feel free to keep arguing this point ad nauseum though, it's not going to change my mind, but I am finding it highly entertaining trying to understand your crazy twisted logic and excuses on this issue.

 

 

How many transcendent masters were known to be blatant hypocrites?

 

 

If striving to be moral and just and then slaughtering your rival village in a raging fit of madness counts as hypocrisy, I'd say at least one that I am aware of. Morality and hypocrisy or lack thereof don't seem to factor into the transcendence equation, as it's more of a physical transformation determined only by your dedication to your training.

 

 

If you want to lie and hurt women to get laid, you certainly wont be the first.

 

Yeah that's totally not my goal at all dude. I am not even looking for any relationship whatsoever sexual or otherwise. I am a hermit, a loner, a solo act. More than anything I just like being left the hell alone. I don't want to lie to or hurt anyone, I try to be a good person in my every day life. I don't want to cause anyone problems, I just want to live my life and be left in peace. I do charity computer work for people who need it. I like helping people, and I like feeling good about myself for helping people. Mostly I live as a quiet old man, and I never go out of my hermit cave, I work all the time and I save all the money I can and right now that's my life.

 

However I will lie, hurt or even beat the ever loving F*** out someone if circumstances warrant such action. I don't have to sit and have a moral debate on the subject.

 

Not discussing your sterility status isn't lying, unless you claim to be fertile when your not.

 

 

Just please don't try to pretend like there is any justification for it and please don't try to convince other people to do the same.

 

I don't even know what your going off on, your arguments don't even make sense. You come across to me as some super holier than thou, self righteous, super christian, 16 year old, surfer dude. Here to impose your morals upon others who obviously don't share them.

 

You have some romanticized idealistic notion of what true love means, what you're describing doesn't even exist in our world.

 

Just please quit being a pussy, Jesus man. You aren't required to barf up every little irrelevant and unimportant factoid you think might possibly cause problems with your mate, all in the name of an absolute honest foundation, no body does that, and if they do they're f*****g retarded.

 

 

 

Your stated decisions have a huge potential to emotionally damage another human being, and aren't even close to practical for keeping anything more than a short-term f**kbuddy.

 

If a woman gets "seriously emotionally damaged" because she couldn't get pregnant by a man who sat her down and told her he never wanted kids, and she'd best find another man to have kids with if that was her goal she deserves it. A man being trapped in a loveless marriage caring for children he never wanted is far worse a fate, orders of magnitude worse.

 

Grow up dude.

Edited May 30, 2010 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

A relationship is about relating. Lack of honesty in such a matter as this basically means you're using her. Same deal if she's trying to trap you into becoming pregnant. If you can't be honest, there is no trust, the "relationship" is built on a lie, and more lies are soon to follow. A spiritual being should tell her the truth and then move on if she wants to have children.

 

The problem here is I see no lack of honesty. I also see no dishonesty. If you sit your partner down and explain you don't want kids, you will never want kids, and she'd be better off finding another man to have kids with if that was her end goal for the relationship. You haven't lied by not stating you can't have kids. There is absolutely no scenario where the fact of your sterility would be relevant to her, unless of course there are ulterior motives at play. We can split hairs all day, but I see nothing deceptive, dishonest or immoral about not discussing such an irrelevant issue.

Edited May 30, 2010 by More_Pie_Guy

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

More Pie, I hate to break this to you, but you are not capable of a mature, healthy adult relationship if you are consciously concealing information from your mate. Withholding information that you know she would actually be interested in actually binds your own energy flow much in the same way that lying does. When she finds out some day down the line that you had a vasectomy, she will feel betrayed. In my relationships I don't keep secrets like this, it is liberating and empowering to have a mate with whom you share everything and don't intentionally hide something. Yes, and it is dishonest. If you don't think so, it's no wonder you're a loner. You apparently don't have any idea how to relate in a healthy way. You seem like someone who has been burned and damaged by some relationship, and now you've hardened into this selfish view of relationships.

 

Also sorry to inform you that a transcendent or realized being does have to do with morality and not harming others. It's just "truly a measure of energetic development"?? Man, where do you get these screwy ideas? Perhaps the Magus of Java can indeed send energy and set paper aflame by just pointing his finger, but these are just parlor tricks. Does he get angry or revengeful? Does he lose his equanimity if someone laughs at him and then punishes them with his 'magic'? Is he desirous of money and power, or beds his female disciples?

 

But I can see you're set in stone about all this, so I'm done trying to convince you.

 

Good luck with your desires for energetic powers.

Edited May 30, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Dreamingawake]

Ahhh, see it seems I completely misunderstood you. When you said transcendence I thought you were actually trying to become a better human (or possibly something more). You just want to be powerful. This puts you and everything you said into a whole new light. my mistake

 

I never said anything about 'true love' and if you consider honesty to be 'a quaint notion' then I feel sorry for you and anyone stupid or unlucky enough to have dealings with you in any way. Thats not holier-than-thou, it's a practical, honest assessment. Honesty is not as much a moral issue IMO as much as a practical one.

 

I think thesongsofdistantearth has put it the best and most concisely so far and if you can't see the reason in his statement and how it applies to you or ditto from anyone else in the last four pages (myself included) then it would seem unlikely that you are able or willing to. Since you're now resulting to personal attacks I guess that's further evidence that you're not really interested in meaningful communication anyway.

 

I wish you the best, seriously I really do. I hope that one day you get to have a healthy relationship with a beautiful, wonderful woman but first you'll have learn what that is.

[Thunder_Gooch]

You live in some idealistic fantasy world which doesn't exist outside of your own delusions. Relationships don't work that way in the real world, and if you think they do you are grossly naive.

 

Achieving some peaced out hippy attitude doesn't mean you've transcended your biological limitations as an organism. It doesn't mean you can exist without a body, and exist without death or decay. Were talking about two fundamentally different things that aren't even related. Morality isn't linked to transcendence in the slightest.

 

I hate showing my ass and being bitter and cynical, but if you guys want a debate you'll have it. I'll stand my ground on this issue.

 

 

More Pie, I hate to break this to you, but you are not capable of a mature, healthy adult relationship if you are consciously concealing information from your mate. When she finds out some day down the line that you had a vasectomy, she will feel betrayed. In my relationships I don't keep secrets like this, it is liberating and empowering to have a mate with whom you share everything and don't intentionally hide something. Yes, and it is dishonest. If you don't think so, it's no wonder you're a loner. You apparently don't have any idea how to relate in a healthy way. You seem like someone who has been burned and damaged by some relationship, and now you've hardened into this selfish view of relationships.

 

Also sorry to inform you that a transcendent or realized being does have to do with morality and not harming others. It's just "truly a measure of energetic development"?? Man, where do you get these screwy ideas? Perhaps the Magus of Java can send energy and set paper aflame by just pointing his finger, but these are just parlor tricks. Does he get angry or revengeful? Does he lose his equanimity if someone laughs at him and then punishes them with his 'magic'? Is he desirous of money and power, or beds his female disciples?

 

But I can see you're set in stone about all this, so I'm done trying to convince you.

 

Good luck with your desires for energetic powers.

Edited May 30, 2010 by More_Pie_Guy

[Dreamingawake]

More Pie, I hate to break this to you, but you are not capable of a mature, healthy adult relationship if you are consciously concealing information from your mate. Withholding information that you know she would actually be interested in actually binds your own energy flow much in the same way that lying does. When she finds out some day down the line that you had a vasectomy, she will feel betrayed. In my relationships I don't keep secrets like this, it is liberating and empowering to have a mate with whom you share everything and don't intentionally hide something. Yes, and it is dishonest. If you don't think so, it's no wonder you're a loner. You apparently don't have any idea how to relate in a healthy way. You seem like someone who has been burned and damaged by some relationship, and now you've hardened into this selfish view of relationships.

 

Also sorry to inform you that a transcendent or realized being does have to do with morality and not harming others. It's just "truly a measure of energetic development"?? Man, where do you get these screwy ideas? Perhaps the Magus of Java can indeed send energy and set paper aflame by just pointing his finger, but these are just parlor tricks. Does he get angry or revengeful? Does he lose his equanimity if someone laughs at him and then punishes them with his 'magic'? Is he desirous of money and power, or beds his female disciples?

 

But I can see you're set in stone about all this, so I'm done trying to convince you.

 

Good luck with your desires for energetic powers.

 

Well said again. How come there's no smily for clapping on this board?

[Thunder_Gooch]

No I don't want to become a better human, I want to become a better spirit being. I want to become free of death and decay and rebirth. I want to leave this planet and exist for eternity in solitude somewhere I can be alone, or with like minded beings.

 

When you say I want power, I don't want power to control or manipulate other people. I don't really much care for them. I don't want money, wealth, fame or political clout, I just want to leave this cycle of death and rebirth and this ignorant little back woods planet.

 

 

Ahhh, see it seems I completely misunderstood you. When you said transcendence I thought you were actually trying to become a better human (or possibly something more). You just want to be powerful. This puts you and everything you said into a whole new light. my mistake

 

I never said anything about 'true love' and if you consider honesty to be 'a quaint notion' then I feel sorry for you and anyone stupid or unlucky enough to have dealings with you in any way. Thats not holier-than-thou, it's a practical, honest assessment. Honesty is not as much a moral issue IMO as much as a practical one.

 

I think thesongsofdistantearth has put it the best and most concisely so far and if you can't see the reason in his statement and how it applies to you or ditto from anyone else in the last four pages (myself included) then it would seem unlikely that you are able or willing to. Since you're now resulting to personal attacks I guess that's further evidence that you're not really interested in meaningful communication anyway.

 

I wish you the best, seriously I really do. I hope that one day you get to have a healthy relationship with a beautiful, wonderful woman but first you'll have learn what that is.

Edited May 30, 2010 by More_Pie_Guy

[Dreamingawake]

You live in some idealistic fantasy world which doesn't exist outside of your own delusions. Relationships don't work that way in the real world, and if you think they do your grossly naive.

 

Achieving some peaced out hippy attitude doesn't you've transcended your biological limitations as an organism. It doesn't mean you can exist without a body, and exist without death or decay. Were talking about to fundamentally different things that aren't even related. Morality isn't linked to transcendence in the slightest.

 

I hate showing my ass and being bitter and cynical, but if you guys want a debate you'll have it. I'll stand my ground on this issue.

 

A debate isn't being a hard-ass and 'standing your ground.' It's a meaningful exchange of ideas. But you've backed yourself into a corner and chosen to turn it into some kind of a fight further proving exactly what songs is saying...

[Dreamingawake]

No I don't want to become a better human, I want to become a better spirit being. I want to become free of death and decay and rebirth. I want to leave this planet and exist for eternity in solitude somewhere I can be alone, or with like minded beings.

 

When you say I want power, I don't want power to control or manipulate other people. I don't really much care for them. I don't want money or wealth, political clout, I just want to leave this cycle of death and rebirth and this ignorant little back woods planet.

 

This might be too personal a question so I wont take any offense if you don't answer, but how did you get to be so bitter?

[Thunder_Gooch]

This might be too personal a question so I wont take any offense if you don't answer, but how did you get to be so bitter?

 

Wake up every morning and realize you are a walking sack of rotting hamburger, you are soon approaching your expiration date, and when it's all said and done, you get thrown back in the meat grinder for another round as perhaps a sausage, or hotdog, or something. Over and over. Repeat this daily realization for a few decades and you'll have me. More than death I fear rebirth, I just want out of this world and out of this cyclic existence. To me it's the ultimate cosmic joke that no one dares to talk about. It's too taboo of a subject, as is evidenced by your reactions.

 

I'm not a sith and I don't want to harm, or control others, or cause anyone problems. I just have something I have to accomplish before my death, and I intend to give it everything I can before I die. I am driven by that, it is my sole purpose for living. I seek transcendence.

 

Say whatever you like, judge me however you wish. We are each given our time here to use as we see fit, to live our own lives as we see fit, I am exercising that freedom and I suggest you do the same.

Edited May 30, 2010 by More_Pie_Guy

[Dreamingawake]

Wake up every morning and realize you are a walking sack of rotting hamburger, you are soon approaching your expiration date, and when it's all said and done, you get thrown back in the meat grinder for another round as perhaps a sausage, or hotdog, something. Over and over. Repeat this daily realization for a few decades and you'll have me. More than death I fear rebirth, I just want out of this world and out of this cyclic existence. To me it's the ultimate cosmic joke that no one dares to talk about. It's too taboo of a subject, as is evidenced by your reactions.

 

I'm not a sith and I don't want to harm, or control others, or cause anyone problems. I just have something I have to accomplish before my death, and I intend to give it everything I can before I die. I am driven by that, it is my sole purpose for living. I seek transcendence.

 

Say whatever you like, judge me however you wish. We are each given our time here to use as we see fit, to live our own lives as we see fit, I am exercising that freedom and I suggest you do the same.

 

But what is it about life that is so horrible? What is it you hate so much that you're afraid you might be born here again? And how do you know that's even the case? I have seen terrible things in this world and experienced many things I would never dare wish on anyone yet I still see so much wonder and beauty in this life that it can be literally overwhelming. Your view to me seems the saddest, most unhealthy view I can imagine right now. If you don't love life then this world will take it from you.

[Thunder_Gooch]

But what is it about life that is so horrible? What is it you hate so much that you're afraid you might be born here again? And how do you know that's even the case? I have seen terrible things in this world and experienced many things I would never dare wish on anyone yet I still see so much wonder and beauty in this life that it can be literally overwhelming. Your view to me seems the saddest, most unhealthy view I can imagine right now. If you don't love life then this world will take it from you.

 

What's wrong with it?

 

As if decay, pain, death, erasure of mind, memory and personality and uncertain rebirth in an indefinite, never ending cycle weren't enough?

 

It seems to me like were falling of a cliff waiting to impact the ground, and all everyone can do is talk about how lovely the weather and scenery is today, completely ignoring the reality of the situation.

 

 

 

There is that in thee, poor lad, which I feel too curing to my malady. Like cures like; and for this hunt, my malady becomes my most desired health. Herman Melville - Moby Dick

 

No one ever escaped from prison by being content, and complacent with their imprisonment. Moreover I don't think you see your situation as imprisonment, you enjoy it as is your prerogative. I don't, this world has never felt real or true or meaningful to me, only some prison in which I am trapped. I love and value my life only insofar as represents the amount of time I have to train to escape this cyclic existence.

Edited May 30, 2010 by More_Pie_Guy

[That Guy]

What's wrong with it?

 

As if decay, pain, death, erasure of mind, memory and personality and uncertain rebirth in an indefinite, never ending cycle weren't enough?

 

It seems to me like were falling of a cliff waiting to impact the ground, and all everyone can do is talk about how lovely the weather and scenery is today, completely ignoring the reality of the situation.

 

 

 

There is that in thee, poor lad, which I feel too curing to my malady. Like cures like; and for this hunt, my malady becomes my most desired health. Herman Melville - Moby Dick

 

No one ever escaped from prison by being content, and complacent with their imprisonment. Moreover I don't think you see your situation as imprisonment, you enjoy it as is your prerogative. I don't, this world has never felt real or true or meaningful to me, only some prison in which I am trapped. I love and value my life only insofar as represents the amount of time I have to train to escape this cyclic existence.

Maybe you wanna have a child to cheer you up?

[Thunder_Gooch]

Maybe you wanna have a child to cheer you up?

 

I actually got a chuckle out of that

[Enishi]

This whole debate reminded me of an anecdotal story I saw on craigslist awhile back:

 

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sea/274495936.html

 

'll try to sum up a funny story that happened a few years ago:

 

I got a vasectomy.

 

I met a girl soon afterwards. She was nice and attractive but with a selfish streak that raised a big red flag. She was 32 at the time and I could practically HEAR her biological clock ticking. Regardless, she was a good lay, easy on the eyes, and reasonably good company.

 

I did NOT tell her about my vasectomy and I always used a condom with her to protect against STDs. She assumed, obviously, that the condom was only used for birth control. Silly girl.

 

We date for a few months. I never made any move towards commitment but she brought it up ocassionally. For me, this was a casual but pleasant relationship. For her - as I was to find out - it was part of life-changing series of events that she was planning very carefully.

 

Four months into dating, I get the "I'm pregnant" talk. She's going on and on about how the condom must have broke and now we really need to think about getting married "for the baby". She's positively giddy. She has a baby in her and she thinks she's gonna have a good meal ticket (me) to go along with her new 7lb annuity.

 

At this point, I'm just as giddy. I get to pull the reverse "oops" on her. I figured that she slept with some bad boy and got knocked up. Good thing I was using condoms! Better still that I have a serious mistrust of women who can't think beyond their own uteri.

 

So I wait a couple of days to "think about all this." I meet her again. I say I don't want kids and that she should have an abortion. I know where this is going and sure enough it goes there. She goes completely batshit insane on me. There were the usual insults about my manhood. There were threats of legal action. It was all very ugly and I was loving every minute of it.

 

Well, I let her stew for a few days. She leaves me nasty messages on my phone. She sends awful emails. I'm laughing hysterically.

 

It was time to drop the hammer. While she was stewing I was busy. First I get a notarized copy from the urologist who performed the vasectomy. Next I get a notarized copy of the TWO test results indicating a "negative test result for sperm" to show I'm sterile and shooting blanks. Finally, I get a letter from a shark attorney stating he has seen the other documents and is prepared to litigate against this woman if she continues to communicate with me in such an unpleasant manner. Also, the letter states that we will insist on DNA testing to show that the baby is not mine. I'm ready.

 

I meet with this woman at her place. I bring flowers and a small bit of jewelry to show I am willing to reconcile and assume my responsibilities as a new father. I also have stuck in my pocket the documents I have prepared.

 

She's all giddy again. Her plan is going perfectly - or so she thinks. We talk about our future. We have some pretty good sex. Then, as I am about to walk out the door, I ask her the $64,000 question. "Are you sure that this baby is mine?"

 

Well, she goes batshit insane again. Hell, she ought to. Her plan could completely unravel if there is ANY question about my paternity. Oh, she's really screaming now. How dare I question her morals. Do I think she's a slut. I'm just trying to weasel out of my responsibilities... blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

I'm not really mad. I'm kind of embarrassed for her. But since she won't shut up and the neighbors can hear all of this, I ask her to step back inside and sit down. She sits on the sofa and calms down a bit. She is glaring at me with all the moral self-righteousness that only a woman can muster up. She thinks she has me trapped. She is 100% convinced her plan has worked. Oh, the tangled web of lies and deceit she has wrought around herself and I am about to hack through them with a few pieces of paper.

 

I reach into my pocket slowly. I extract the three pieces of paper and unfold them slowly and deliberately.

 

I tell her simply, "You're screwed".

 

Her look doesn't change. There is no way she can fathom what I have prepared.

 

I continue. "I am sterile"

 

Her look changes just a bit. Something is beginning to sink in. Naturally, she reverts to women's logic. "You're full of shit. You're trapped and you know it."

 

I hold up the letter and the test results. "Three months before we met, I had a vasectomy. Here is a notarized letter from him stating what I had done. Here are two test results showing that I tested negative for the presence of sperm. Blanks. I am shooting blanks. That baby inside you is simply not mine."

 

This woman is not to be swayed by logic and clear documentation. "Bullshit, those are fakes."

 

I was ready for that. "No, they are real. This last piece of paper is from my attorney. It's a simple letter to you that states if you pursue any kind of legal action against me for child support that I will insist on a DNA test to prove paternity, that is, to prove that your baby is not mine."

 

I give the woman all the documents. She reads them slowly, deliberately. With each passing second she can feel in her soul that she has made a very bad mistake. With denial swept away, she started to cry. It's a small cry at first. Then it becomes deeper and more painful. By the time she gets to the letter from the lawyer she is sobbing.

 

I had no sympathy for her. I turned and walked out the door. Even after I closed the door I could still hear her sobbing.

 

Epilogue -

 

I never heard directly from this woman again. I did hear through my friends that she did indeed have the baby. I also heard that the real father was some guy in a band she had met. I assumed that after 30, women stopped going after musicians, bikers, criminals, and thugs. Silly me for thinking the best of American women.

 

The Moral of the Story -

 

Get a vasectomy but keep it a secret.

 

Although I believe the woman's actions in this case were 1000 times worse, I do think the guy should have been more honest.

 

If he had, the woman might not have had unprotected sex with the bad boy. One's actions can have indirect negative effects as well as the more direct ones.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Enishi