Coming Soon: neigongforum.com

[Thunder_Gooch]

Hey guy's just a heads up, I will be launching neigongforum.com within a week or two.

 

This forum will be dedicated solely to the discussion of all things neigong related.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hey guy's just a heads up, I will be launching neigongforum.com within a week or two.

 

This forum will be dedicated solely to the discussion of all things neigong related.

 

Cool. Do you mind posting again when the forum launches? Just in case I forget

[TommyRyukyu]

looking forward to your new site as well more pie

[Thunder_Gooch]

Thanks guys, I had hoped Sean would make a separate forum only for neigong/qigong training discussion. TTB is cool but too much noise for my taste, I want an environment where people are actually discussing techniques and experiences and teachers that get real results. I figured I'd give hosting a forum for that sort of environment a try and see what happened. At worst it could fail.

[Martial Development]

Setting up a forum is easy. Creating an online community is difficult. Finding a large group of people who actually know something about neigong, and who are also interested in sharing their experiences online, in English, is nearly impossible. Good luck!

[Baguakid]

Yes, if you can devote it soley to true Neigong issues that would be great.

 

RumSoakedFist doesn't do too bad but they shut down when talking about Qi.

 

Also, they include MMA and BJJ which I don't see as internal at all.

 

Hope it works.!

[~jK~]

Why not just make it here? If you know what you are talking about, it will evolve, if you don't...

 

It seems to me that all you guys are doing is wishfull thinking in print .

Edited June 4, 2010 by ~jK~

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yes, if you can devote it soley to true Neigong issues that would be great.

 

RumSoakedFist doesn't do too bad but they shut down when talking about Qi.

 

Also, they include MMA and BJJ which I don't see as internal at all.

 

Hope it works.!

 

I've found that Brazilian Jujutsu develops many of the same skills that tai chi produces. Listening, leading your opponent into nothingness, not meeting yang with yang, but instead striking (or, grappling) where the opponent isn't.

 

Royce Gracie didn't out muscle his opponents in UFC 1! They didn't have weight classes back then, you know.

[Baguakid]

I've found that Brazilian Jujutsu develops many of the same skills that tai chi produces. Listening, leading your opponent into nothingness, not meeting yang with yang, but instead striking (or, grappling) where the opponent isn't.

 

Royce Gracie didn't out muscle his opponents in UFC 1! They didn't have weight classes back then, you know.

 

Perhaps, but I just about can't stand BJJ, or MMA. I'm a traditionalist with root development and theory in Qi production, accumulation and usage. If training doesn't include thought about Qi then it's nothing more than physical training, not internal, and it doesn't interest me.

 

One problem a Neigong site will have is Defining what Neigong is. I have my definition, others have theirs. So, it's going to be a little on the difficult side to find a main stream line of thought in such a site.

[Dreamingawake]

Should be very interesting though. Can't wait to check it out and hope it turns out awesome. Everyone cross their fingers, knock on wood and if you see a falling star, make a wish

[Thunder_Gooch]

Perhaps, but I just about can't stand BJJ, or MMA. I'm a traditionalist with root development and theory in Qi production, accumulation and usage. If training doesn't include thought about Qi then it's nothing more than physical training, not internal, and it doesn't interest me.

 

One problem a Neigong site will have is Defining what Neigong is. I have my definition, others have theirs. So, it's going to be a little on the difficult side to find a main stream line of thought in such a site.

 

Yes my definition of neigong is internal power, chi cultivation and refinement and other energetic systems.

[goldisheavy]

Setting up a forum is easy. Creating an online community is difficult. Finding a large group of people who actually know something about neigong, and who are also interested in sharing their experiences online, in English, is nearly impossible. Good luck!

 

I want to riff off this comment. Basically, neigong, for better or for worse, has a historical baggage of being shrouded in secrecy. This has a couple of problems. First problem, many teachers will (foolishly, in my opinion) advise and demand that their students do not discuss anything. But worse than this, because of secrecy, it's nearly impossible to verify any credential. What credential? All the clans are secret! What confirmation? For example, if someone claims to have a Ph.D. from Harvard, you can contact Harvard, which is not secret, but rather is a very public institution, and have them look up their alumni roster and get back to you. There is simply no such mechanism for much of neigong precisely due to the baggage of secrecy.

 

Because of this, it's very easy for two things to happen. First thing, someone can claim to be a real teacher, but have no lineage, and there is not much you can do to verify. Second, someone can be a real teacher, but look and sound stupid and untrustworthy, and there is no way this foolishly sounding person can convince you.

 

So my suggestion is this. Forget neigong. In other words, forget tradition. Open your own mind. Experiment. Meditate. Contemplate. Then share these experiences with others who are as open-minded and as dedicated as you are. This group of yours will be free of the old baggage. You might make some mistakes, but having a teacher is absolutely no guarantee that the teaching will be appropriate for you either. How many teachers are there that actually care about their students and take time to sync up with them to see what is best? Most Chinese take a very authoritarian approach. Do you understand the implication? The implication of authoritarian approach is that student is not important. Only what teacher thinks is important. Student is nothing. Teacher is everything. That's the mindset. And the teaching is strictly top-down. It is force-fed. You either accept it, or you do not accept it. There is no third option, no creativity, no circumstantial adjustment, not in traditional Chinese method. Traditional Chinese method is "You lick my ass for 3 years, and then, if I like you, I will maybe you show you something."

 

So get a group and dig in. You'll learn more than any teacher will ever teach you. Because you'll be free of baggage, you won't have arbitrary and idiotic constraints on your practice. Simply accept that you may make mistakes, but don't feel bad about it. If you make a mistake, be ready to admit it, and move on. It's worth it.

 

If you keep chasing other people's gold, you'll never be rich. Find your own goldmine and mine it. Teachers will for the most part do nothing more than disempower you and make you dependent on them. These teachers will, either directly or indirectly teach you "you need me" and "without me, you are nothing."

 

The downside of what I am suggesting is that you'll be unable to easily capitalize on your knowledge. If you have some kind of formal lineage backing you up, later on you can charge people for training, even if you're a total idiot. People will buy it on the strength of that credential (which is of course, dubious -- just try to follow up some of these credentials and see how well you do... it's not like Harvard or Yale, which are old public institutions that operate transparently and thus trustworthily). So if you want to become a money-charging Guru, you might be better served by looking for a lineage to hijack for your profit motive. If you just want wisdom, forget teachers and learn on your own. And if you can get a group of likeminded individuals, so much the better.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Setting up a forum is easy. Creating an online community is difficult. Finding a large group of people who actually know something about neigong, and who are also interested in sharing their experiences online, in English, is nearly impossible. Good luck!

 

I agree MD. At the very least I'd like to try to build a community of people who want to learn the most effective systems and methods of energetic development, even if those methods are never found. TTB doesn't really cut it, this place is more like 4chan meets tai chi.

 

I know how to meditate to fill a dan tein, and I know some basics of longmen pai. I know surely I can't be the only person in this world that gives a crap, surely there must be others, that's kind of my inspiration the hope that maybe I can find them and as a community with overlapping goals we all are able progress further than if we were operating individually, or so my theory goes.

 

I don't really know if the forum will amount to anything or not, I plan on keeping registration open but not publicly accessible for search engine indexing, as well as a non-enforceable "on your honor" NDA among members.

Edited May 30, 2010 by More_Pie_Guy

[Moonbar]

No MPG you are not the only person who gives a crap about these things there are many of us.

 

I understand what your doing & why, I wish you only the best of luck & i will definately frequent your pages

[markern]

I want to riff off this comment. Basically, neigong, for better or for worse, has a historical baggage of being shrouded in secrecy. This has a couple of problems. First problem, many teachers will (foolishly, in my opinion) advise and demand that their students do not discuss anything. But worse than this, because of secrecy, it's nearly impossible to verify any credential. What credential? All the clans are secret! What confirmation? For example, if someone claims to have a Ph.D. from Harvard, you can contact Harvard, which is not secret, but rather is a very public institution, and have them look up their alumni roster and get back to you. There is simply no such mechanism for much of neigong precisely due to the baggage of secrecy.

 

Because of this, it's very easy for two things to happen. First thing, someone can claim to be a real teacher, but have no lineage, and there is not much you can do to verify. Second, someone can be a real teacher, but look and sound stupid and untrustworthy, and there is no way this foolishly sounding person can convince you.

 

So my suggestion is this. Forget neigong. In other words, forget tradition. Open your own mind. Experiment. Meditate. Contemplate. Then share these experiences with others who are as open-minded and as dedicated as you are. This group of yours will be free of the old baggage. You might make some mistakes, but having a teacher is absolutely no guarantee that the teaching will be appropriate for you either. How many teachers are there that actually care about their students and take time to sync up with them to see what is best? Most Chinese take a very authoritarian approach. Do you understand the implication? The implication of authoritarian approach is that student is not important. Only what teacher thinks is important. Student is nothing. Teacher is everything. That's the mindset. And the teaching is strictly top-down. It is force-fed. You either accept it, or you do not accept it. There is no third option, no creativity, no circumstantial adjustment, not in traditional Chinese method. Traditional Chinese method is "You lick my ass for 3 years, and then, if I like you, I will maybe you show you something."

 

So get a group and dig in. You'll learn more than any teacher will ever teach you. Because you'll be free of baggage, you won't have arbitrary and idiotic constraints on your practice. Simply accept that you may make mistakes, but don't feel bad about it. If you make a mistake, be ready to admit it, and move on. It's worth it.

 

If you keep chasing other people's gold, you'll never be rich. Find your own goldmine and mine it. Teachers will for the most part do nothing more than disempower you and make you dependent on them. These teachers will, either directly or indirectly teach you "you need me" and "without me, you are nothing."

 

The downside of what I am suggesting is that you'll be unable to easily capitalize on your knowledge. If you have some kind of formal lineage backing you up, later on you can charge people for training, even if you're a total idiot. People will buy it on the strength of that credential (which is of course, dubious -- just try to follow up some of these credentials and see how well you do... it's not like Harvard or Yale, which are old public institutions that operate transparently and thus trustworthily). So if you want to become a money-charging Guru, you might be better served by looking for a lineage to hijack for your profit motive. If you just want wisdom, forget teachers and learn on your own. And if you can get a group of likeminded individuals, so much the better.

 

I think you would love dharmaoverground and Daniel Ingram. AYPsite.org should also be in your taste. THere are also several other "rational dharma" blogs and sites that have open discussions about teachings and try to foster development through sharing experiences and critically discussing everything.

[~jK~]

Why not just make it here? If you know what you are talking about, it will evolve, if you don't...

 

It seems to me that all you guys are doing is wishfull thinking in print .

Edited June 4, 2010 by ~jK~

[Martial Development]

I want to riff off this comment. Basically, neigong, for better or for worse, has a historical baggage of being shrouded in secrecy...

 

You know, someone on a martial arts forum recently asked what a dantian is. A dozen replies explained that it is a synonym for center of gravity, and that past generations of Chinese people didn't or couldn't state this simple fact, because they are superstitious, secretive, and poetically inclined.

 

I posted an image of the nei jing tu, which is hardly a secret these days. It's on the Internet, along with English translations of its literal text, and some interpretations of the subtext.

 

The text reads, "...The fundamental reason (for the obscurity of this chart) is that the Way of the Elixir is subtle, and there are obtuse people who do not have the ability to grasp it...In truth, I did not dare to keep this for myself alone. Therefore, I had it engraved on a printing block to be widely disseminated."

 

Naturally, this chart was ignored by the rest of the forum, and the circle jerking about gravitational alignment continued.

 

How many teachers are there that actually care about their students and take time to sync up with them to see what is best? Most Chinese take a very authoritarian approach. Do you understand the implication? The implication of authoritarian approach is that student is not important. Only what teacher thinks is important. Student is nothing. Teacher is everything. That's the mindset. And the teaching is strictly top-down. It is force-fed. You either accept it, or you do not accept it. There is no third option, no creativity, no circumstantial adjustment, not in traditional Chinese method. Traditional Chinese method is "You lick my ass for 3 years, and then, if I like you, I will maybe you show you something."

 

 

The customer is always right. So everybody wants to be a customer, nobody wants to be a student. Few people are willing to be reformed, but everyone fancies themselves a reformer.

 

Learning neigong is not like earning a degree from the University of Phoenix! IMO, it is closer to becoming a Navy SEAL. SEALs accept reform too, I am told, but they certainly don't cater to the demands of those who washed out early.

 

Tradition is technology.

 

I don't really care who accepts and who rejects the traditional teaching methods. But when people rationalize their distaste for these methods, and then externalize the villains who thwart their desire to possess the technology......that drives me up the wall!

 

One has to wonder how these past generations of Asian masters, with all their alleged hatred for innovation and creativity, ever managed to learn anything at all?!

 

...So get a group and dig in. You'll learn more than any teacher will ever teach you. Because you'll be free of baggage, you won't have arbitrary and idiotic constraints on your practice.

 

One of my Taiji instructors, who has been teaching for fifty years, says quite openly that that most other "masters" are frauds. They don't know what they are doing, or what they aren't doing. When they write books to share their negligible expertise, they put their own ideas in the front of the book, and relegate the Taiji Classics to an appendix, or omit them completely. I invite you to consider whether that is a mere coincidence.

 

One of my Wing Chun instructors, who has taught for over forty years, liked to say that "If you can really figure all this stuff out just by reading a few books and watching a few videos, then I'll sweep the floor to welcome you." I'm sure he hasn't used that broom yet.

[Aetherous]

I look forward to seeing what develops!

[goldisheavy]

One of my Taiji instructors, who has been teaching for fifty years, says quite openly that that most other "masters" are frauds. They don't know what they are doing, or what they aren't doing. When they write books to share their negligible expertise, they put their own ideas in the front of the book, and relegate the Taiji Classics to an appendix, or omit them completely. I invite you to consider whether that is a mere coincidence.

 

It's not a coincidence. Because all the clans operated in secret, the side-effect was that there was not much interdisciplinary testing. And because of that, every clan could regard every other clan as amateurs and frauds. It's only natural. Everyone is proud of their own skill and clan. Martial arts history is rife with people touting their own horns.

 

One of my Wing Chun instructors, who has taught for over forty years, liked to say that "If you can really figure all this stuff out just by reading a few books and watching a few videos, then I'll sweep the floor to welcome you." I'm sure he hasn't used that broom yet.

 

Wait, so your teacher is cocky and arrogant? I am so shocked and surprised. That's truly new and unheard of in the field.

 

If I understand correctly, More Pie Guy wants to become a Taoist immortal. That's quite different from martial arts. While it's obvious how the secrecy has harmed the martial arts community, at least martial artists can meet sometimes, if only rarely, and test their skill. When it comes to immortality, you won't be meeting anyone and you won't be testing your skill. Immortality is not a contest.

 

As the Taoist sages said, "A sage doesn't contend with anyone, and therefore no one contends with the sage."

 

I think that More Pie Guy should by all means start that forum. It sounds good. I just don't think his expectations will lead to anything other than crushed hopes, so I am trying to save some pain. But maybe I am too cynical and wrong. That's possible.

Edited May 30, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Martial Development]

If I understand correctly, More Pie Guy wants to become a Taoist immortal. That's quite different from martial arts. While it's obvious how the secrecy has harmed the martial arts community, at least martial artists can meet sometimes, if only rarely, and test their skill. When it comes to immortality, you won't be meeting anyone and you won't be testing your skill.

 

Is this your experience, or your speculative theory?

[Martial Development]

I don't really know if the forum will amount to anything or not, I plan on keeping registration open but not publicly accessible for search engine indexing, as well as a non-enforceable "on your honor" NDA among members.

 

Actually, I heard about a group in Seattle doing this, 5-7 years ago. I'd love to tell you more about them...but their activities were a secret.

[goldisheavy]

Is this your experience, or your speculative theory?

 

Both.

[gendao]

Most Chinese take a very authoritarian approach. Do you understand the implication? The implication of authoritarian approach is that student is not important. Only what teacher thinks is important. Student is nothing. Teacher is everything. That's the mindset. And the teaching is strictly top-down. It is force-fed. You either accept it, or you do not accept it. There is no third option, no creativity, no circumstantial adjustment, not in traditional Chinese method. Traditional Chinese method is "You lick my ass for 3 years, and then, if I like you, I will maybe you show you something."

Actually, there is an operational hierarchy in Chinese martial arts. You are paying* the instructor to...actually instruct you. You may bounce ideas off your peers. And you might even be expected to help teach your "younger brothers." But, you are not paying your laoshi to merely be your training partner on an equal footing. His skills and know-how should be superior to yours.

 

Now, if you don't think your laoshi is worthy of coaching you...then you shouldn't be paying him to be your coach in the first place. You should find another one. Or, if you don't feel you need one, then by all means learn on your own. Nobody forces you to learn from any teacher. In fact, it was usually a great honor to be accepted by a legit one.

 

BTW, I don't think this is much different in the West, either. Try taking a boxing class and telling your coach how YOU want to train (vs everyone else). Try taking ANY class & don't follow along with all the rest of the students in the class routines. See how well your "liberated" Western coaches cotton to that..

 

Don't get me wrong - I don't think robotically mimicking anyone else will ever get you to realize your full potential. If you keep following the finger, you will never glimpse the moon for yourself. Hence, I myself seek the Middle Path between qualified instruction & self-practice.

 

 

 

The other thing is that Westerners can sometimes get too stuck in our heads and ask endless theoretical questions...which are ultimately irrelevant or would be answered with continued practice. I think that's another reason why students may be encouraged to simply practice more & think less. (The other reason being that many teachers today are less accomplished and don't know the answers either, lol.)

 

 

* Actually, in the traditional ways, you didn't even pay for lessons. The servitude was a token form of payment...but more a way to weed out the uncommitted students unworthy of wasting instruction on.

Edited May 31, 2010 by vortex

[goldisheavy]

I don't really know if the forum will amount to anything or not, I plan on keeping registration open but not publicly accessible for search engine indexing, as well as a non-enforceable "on your honor" NDA among members.

 

Oh the irony. So you suffer from these policies yourself, and as a result, you'll make your own secret group. Great! Just great.

 

I guess if you're a victim of abuse, the answer is not to fight the abuse, but to switch sides from victim to the abuser. Makes sense.

 

And you're about to make more lemons for yourself. Make more of that which has hurt you in the past. Keep the cycle going.

[goldisheavy]

Now, if you don't think your laoshi is worthy of coaching you...then you shouldn't be paying him to be your coach in the first place. You should find another one. Or, if you don't feel you need one, then by all means learn on your own. Nobody forces you to learn from any teacher. In fact, it was usually a great honor to be accepted by a legit one.

 

It's a great honor to have a student who can learn too. The sifu should be flattered and stuttering and getting red cheeks as much as the student. This good student can go to another good sifu, unless you think you are the only good sifu in existence. So this whole dynamic of flattery and honor really has to go both ways, if it is sincere.

 

When a worthy student walks into the room, it's as if God walked into the room. The sifu should immediately drop on the floor and kiss the student's feet. Without this kind of grace, the sifu's lineage is destined to die out.

 

See? This logic works in reverse too.

 

BTW, I don't think this is much different in the West, either. Try taking a boxing class and telling your coach how YOU want to train (vs everyone else). Try taking ANY class & don't follow along with all the rest of the students in the class routines. See how well your "liberated" Western coaches cotton to that..

 

As a rule, when you sign up, you place yourself in a bad position. Namely, by an act of sign-up, it's like you acknowledge that you have no right to give constructive criticism and so on. That's unfortunate, but that's how it is in a lot of places. It's not a big deal where you have many competing places you can sign up to for cheap. So if you don't like this place, you go to another one. But this kind of social dynamic becomes a huge problem when there is only one or two of expensive and unavoidable groups that you must sign up for (for example dominant gangs, or dominant corporations, etc.) "if you know what's good for you."

 

In martial arts, this is less of a problem, because frankly you can just beat your teacher to the head if you don't like your teacher. It happens all the time too. So if you have a pansy teacher you can knock your teacher out and teach him a good lesson.

 

But keep in mind that More Pie Guy is not seeking martial arts instruction. He wants to become an immortal. It's a totally different thing. Your martial arts experience simply does not apply here. Punching your teacher in the context of immortality is simply irrelevant and demonstrates nothing. Immortality is not a skill of ass kicking, like martial arts is.

 

Don't get me wrong - I don't think robotically mimicking anyone else will ever get you to realize your full potential. If you keep following the finger, you will never glimpse the moon for yourself. Hence, I myself seek the Middle Path between qualified instruction & self-practice.

 

That's fine for martial arts. That doesn't cut it if you want to transcend convention. You can't rely on convention to transcend convention. It just doesn't work like that. It's like eating more salt in an attempt to reduce the amount of salt you eat. Some things work well within convention. Some things do not. Mysticism is by its very nature convention-transcending. Mystics do not arise by conventional practice. When you use reason as a mystic, you don't use it precisely in a conventionally accepted manner.

 

The other thing is that Westerners can sometimes get too stuck in our heads and ask endless theoretical questions...

 

Never seen it happen. What I do see is that most people don't want to know or understand anything, but instead they want to be given a 1-2-3 step by step instruction so they can jump ignorantly and mindlessly into doing. I see this everywhere, especially at work. No one gives a fuck why something happens a certain way. They just want to be told how to get it not to happen now. They don't care that their non-understanding of the problem will result in this problem recurring in the near future. That's the attitude I see the most. Westerners are not thinkers. They are doers. Worse than that, they tend to be mindless zombie doers.

 

"Just do microcosmic orbit?" "OK!!! Let's do it 1000 times now!" No one says "why?" Everyone is saying "how many times? when?" etc.

Edited May 31, 2010 by goldisheavy