Questioning some thoughts on "God" and human progress towards enlightenment

[ralis]

I agree, even the gods fight in the heavens for who is the real form of the transcendent first cause. I guess all the theistic wars waged on Earth is just a reflection of that. "My God is the true God of all", "No mine is the one and only God of them all." Then there's the "My God is the god of all gods, the formless one that is the source of all other gods."...

 

Anyway... I'm just saying that I agree.

 

Is that any different than saying the Buddha is above it all? No different! Only in your mind is it different.

[Vajrahridaya]

Is that any different than saying the Buddha is above it all? No different! Only in your mind is it different.

 

Buddha isn't above it all, he just sees through it all. He doesn't need to start wars to prove that either. Ralis, your view and interpretation of everything I say is so skewed and really just a product of conditioning from hating Christianity.

[electric gravity]

ill say this and this is all i will say. In times of old before the tao was called the tao by taoist it was referred to as the truth or god. The ancient taoist were known as prophets and sages. Taoism and taoist practices should bring you closer to god. The merging of yin and yang is just part of the ascension process. Your training should give you a better respect and fear for god. There is a darkness that has crept into the taoist arts if you look hard enough you will see it. Ill just tell you what my sifu told me " if anyone or practice pulls you away from god then that person or practice is evil and you must stay away from it". Before training my sifu told that he really didnt even believe in god but after learning our taoist art he couldnt help but too believe in god. Even Jim said it in the mo pai that training helped him have a deeper relationship with god and thats good. Ill put it like this building and circulating chi doesnt make your aura holy it just makes it stronger. If you have ever been by a real taoist it is kind of like standing next to a powerful preacher you feel more moral, you watch what you say, and you feel in higher spirits afterwards. A taoist is the vessel for the supreme ultimate when you stand next to him you should feel blessed like your standing next to the center of creation (god) it self. People who say that neikung has no basis in religious theory or belief is just lying to you or they dont know the truth themselves.

 

It cant be called the supreme ultimate or the ascension path if it doesnt bring you closer to god.

 

God is real and thats just something that you have to come to terms with.

 

The movement of the tao and taoist practices is always back to the source think about that.

[Aaron]

Aaron - who taught you the Yoga of meditation ?

Do You do more damage than good with this subject?

 

There is No god - no jesus. Both are christian excuse for WAR. Read history of Roman Emperor Constantine year 300 AD - This is where christian religion began.

 

Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity

 

It's a very basic technique for calming the mind Alfred, you'll find it in many books (and one I used for nearly two decades). I think one who states emphatically "There is No god- no jesus" should examine history a bit more. Jesus was mentioned in numerous historical texts, so there actually was a Jesus. Also can you prove to me that there is no God? People have been trying to do this for several centuries now and no one seems to be able to convince one side or the other, so perhaps what you should say is, "I don't believe there is a God."

 

Aaron

[Vajrahridaya]

" if anyone or practice pulls you away from god then that person or practice is evil and you must stay away from it".

 

Kind of extreme... wouldn't you say? From this definition, one could then say that Buddhism is evil.

 

:lol:

[Vajrahridaya]

People have been trying to do this for several centuries now and no one seems to be able to convince one side or the other, so perhaps what you should say is, "I don't believe there is a God."

 

Aaron

 

It has not been proven either way empirically or scientifically. But, you can have the insight yourself, directly through meditative investigation.

[manitou]

I'm thinking Christ was a shaman or one who knew how to move energy, if in fact he was a historical figure. His folks were Essenes, I think I read? Weren't they the ones who utilized earth magic?

 

The whole concept of a God is such a migrating story in everyone's life, it seems. The concept most of us were handed as children is still alive and well in the part of the country I live in; the midwest. The refrains of "Onward Christian Soldiers" can almost be felt in the vibrations in the air. I find it curious that so many folks back here haven't evolved one iota from what they were taught in Sunday School. (Heck, they don't believe in evolution at all!)

 

But, the interesting thing is that in their simplicity they are so very sure that they are the ones that will be saved in the end; they congregate together knowing that they're God's special children and they are tremendously involved in their church affairs, healings, potlucks, picnics, whatever. I see it as delusional (including my own extended family) and yet there is no denying that there are happy, warm little peas in a pod. These are the same folks who will fight to the death to make sure you don't have an abortion, and then fight to the death to make sure they don't have to pay a penny of health care for that same baby. This is a really interesting part of the country in some respects; they cling like crazy to the mores of yesterday - many men around here drive the same cars they had as kids in the 60's - all fixed up and tricked out. These people are desperately wanting to return to the simplicity of the 60's, and because this is such an incestuous little area where nobody ever moves away from home, their heads are still stuck in the 60's. This is a Tea Party area, which really drives me up the wall; but the really scary thing is that as a voting bloc these folks really have it together and work in unison; the churches seem to be the drawing place for political discussion.

 

There's no denying that there's something inside us that wants to understand more than just what we see. I see this as the real proof of the central force, the God spirit. We're apparently hard-wired with the questions inside us and we're like moths to a flame trying to understand it. But people fashion in their own image what it is that they want to believe. If one is looking for nothing more than Comfort, then I guess Onward Christian Soldiers it is.....

 

There's another part of me that fully understands this too. We used to have a house in Mexico for a few years; the simplicity of the peasant's Catholicism down there was actually very heart-touching. Their icons, their child-like trust in the Virgin - there was something quite beautiful in that too. They had so very little in the way of comforts in this world - and yet their blind faith in the virgin Mary and their religious habits certainly gave them a comfort for living day to day that most of us are missing up in the States. Maybe all this says is that it can be anything you need it to be.

 

We who strive toward Enlightment find that we must walk away from the religions of our childhood and think for ourselves. But there's no denying that we're giving up something too, even if it's only the child-like assurance that everything will be wonderful in heaven once we get there. We must become realists; we must take responsibility for our own actions and our own problems. We must own them. However, the realization that everything is as it should be, once one truly internalizes that, is every bit as reassuring to me as it used to be when I thought about the rapture, back when I was a Krazy Kristian.

[tyler zambori]

mu

Edited February 21, 2011 by tyler zambori

[manitou]

I think there is a God and we're it.

[Otis]

There is no God. Period. People have made up the idea of God, but whatever people imagine as "God" is not real and doesn't exist, because the ideas people have for God are self-contradictory and logically inconsistent. Even if such a thing did somehow exist, you'd not be able to recognize it or sense it, as it would make no sense to you and you'd have nothing to connect with.

Yikes! I'm an atheist, but I would never make this claim. Epistemology alone keeps me from saying any "there is no" statements, because they're unknowable. How could anyone even have the experience of "there is no such thing as ____________".

 

Of course the concept of "God" points to something! Billions of people, throughout history, have had the felt experience of God. This does not mean that they felt some old guy in the clouds, but I think it is foolish to utterly dismiss what much of humanity insists they have experienced.

 

I don't see any easy answers to explain what God is, although I have my theories. Making categorical statements about God, however, just implies locked beliefs on the subject.

[Otis]

double post

Edited February 24, 2011 by Otis

[Otis]

I think there is a God and we're it.

You've mentioned this before. Can you explain more what you mean by it?

[manitou]

Hi Otis,

 

After a lot of years of thinking about this, and going through a self-realization process of my own, it occurs to me that life is all One. If life is all One, then there is no differentiation. If there is no differentiation, then the Intelligence is One. and aren't we the most logical place for it to dwell?

 

There certainly has to be an Intelligence; I don't think haphazard produced this. To believe in the same kind of God I was brought up with, the Santa Claus god, this doesn't make any sense to me at all. Someone living 'out there', someone who hears individual prayers of individual people - you know the mindset. When someone says they believe in God, I equate that to believing in Santa.

 

I have learned through my own inner voice that this is the same inner voice that you have inside you. That everyone has inside them, whether they can hear it or not. Even Gaddhafi. In order to hear the voice of the intelligence, we must go through the self-realization process, which is nothing more than finding out who Otis (or, in Gaddhafi's case, Gaddhafi) really is.

 

We are the spear of the intelligence on this particular plane. Who knows how many other myriad planes there are? But on this one at least, we are the combined voice of the Intelligence. It manifests everything from the inner to the outer. It dwells within, manifests to the outside. Even before man evolved, it was manifested as the Tao (or whatever you want to call it) through all sorts of life; man is just the most recent manifestation. I love the concept of the Tao because it is so unlimited and best fits with the 'god is everything' mindset.

 

Things at this point have to be communicated in word pictures. And analogy is a most useful tool.

 

Picture the earth; crust and mantle on the outside, molten lava on the inside. Picture man, the flame of the Intelligence on the inside, our skin on the outside.

Both things, both the flame in man and the fire within the earth, are a piece of the sun. The manifestations were originally fueled by the sun at the very beginning, no?

 

It is like the blueprint of the oak tree being contained within the acorn. It is the same with us; the god blueprint is inside us; our personality and our acquired traits are the things that warp the presence; in its original nature, it is pure. It sits there, waiting for you to find It.

 

It seems to me that the Intelligence has been tending toward Oneness since the day it started. It has wanted to experience self, and personally, I think that's all it wants to do. We are now approaching Oneness in our voice; look at the world around us, what's happening. The trend is now for all of man to dictate how he is ruled; our voices now merge together as One on the internet. On this forum in particular! They talk about the Singularity usually in terms of the ability of machines to duplicate the antics of humans; but I'm guessing there's a type of Singularity that happens with mankind too. A type of Singularity that has to do with man discovering who he is and standing up to his full height.

 

Do you remember the story of the Tower of Babel? How languages were separated, how man could no longer communicate with one another? It may be an analogy for the onset of the differences in man; those differences are now being eliminated. We can even speak to each other on our computers and have it automatically translate for us! It seems to be reaching a culmination of sorts; what is beyond the culmination is anybody's guess.

 

YOU are the presence you've always looked for. It is inside YOU, not out there. When we can get down to it (here's that ugly inner cultivation thing again) we can hear it, we can feel it, and we know what to do in each and every situation.

 

It's merely a process that has to start somewhere, with each one of us. I actually consider myself fortunate that I was an alcoholic and had to do inner work to keep from drinking any more. It was this very misfortune that kicked this process off, totally unbeknownst to me at the time.

 

To start the process for yourself, just look at what made you angry or irritated today. Throw any defensiveness away and try to step to the side of yourself; assume you have every character flaw there is. Try to see exactly what part you played in an argument, what you were defending, why you were angry. Find out what your selfishnesses are, where your jealousies lie, where you are less than honest. Look and see if you are obsessive in some ways; if you are, it's covering up something you don't want to look at. Do this cleansing process daily - look for your part in these events always. Do not be afraid to see that you are less than you actually are. In reality, you are More than you actually think you are. But you must find this out for yourself. Figure out your memories; they are there for a reason, becuase you had some emotional reaction to an event. Our lives are the very mirror that we need, the compass that shows us what direction we are heading toward.

 

Know yourself. That's where it lives. This is also the road that must be taken for enlightenment, which is, essentially, knowing who you Are. Enlightened people don't need to pray to something out there, they know that communally we are It. They take ultimate responsibility for their lives, don't look for excuses to avoid blame.

 

Have you ever heard that when a person finally reaches enlightenment, he laughs? This is why. It turns out God is exactly opposite where we were originally taught he was.

 

But isn't that perfect in a yin-yang sort of way?

[surfingbudda]

Hi Otis,

 

After a lot of years of thinking about this, and going through a self-realization process of my own, it occurs to me that life is all One. If life is all One, then there is no differentiation. If there is no differentiation, then the Intelligence is One. and aren't we the most logical place for it to dwell?

 

There certainly has to be an Intelligence; I don't think haphazard produced this. To believe in the same kind of God I was brought up with, the Santa Claus god, this doesn't make any sense to me at all. Someone living 'out there', someone who hears individual prayers of individual people - you know the mindset. When someone says they believe in God, I equate that to believing in Santa.

 

I have learned through my own inner voice that this is the same inner voice that you have inside you. That everyone has inside them, whether they can hear it or not. Even Gaddhafi. In order to hear the voice of the intelligence, we must go through the self-realization process, which is nothing more than finding out who Otis (or, in Gaddhafi's case, Gaddhafi) really is.

 

We are the spear of the intelligence on this particular plane. Who knows how many other myriad planes there are? But on this one at least, we are the combined voice of the Intelligence. It manifests everything from the inner to the outer. It dwells within, manifests to the outside. Even before man evolved, it was manifested as the Tao (or whatever you want to call it) through all sorts of life; man is just the most recent manifestation. I love the concept of the Tao because it is so unlimited and best fits with the 'god is everything' mindset.

 

Things at this point have to be communicated in word pictures. And analogy is a most useful tool.

 

Picture the earth; crust and mantle on the outside, molten lava on the inside. Picture man, the flame of the Intelligence on the inside, our skin on the outside.

Both things, both the flame in man and the fire within the earth, are a piece of the sun. The manifestations were originally fueled by the sun at the very beginning, no?

 

It is like the blueprint of the oak tree being contained within the acorn. It is the same with us; the god blueprint is inside us; our personality and our acquired traits are the things that warp the presence; in its original nature, it is pure. It sits there, waiting for you to find It.

 

It seems to me that the Intelligence has been tending toward Oneness since the day it started. It has wanted to experience self, and personally, I think that's all it wants to do. We are now approaching Oneness in our voice; look at the world around us, what's happening. The trend is now for all of man to dictate how he is ruled; our voices now merge together as One on the internet. On this forum in particular! They talk about the Singularity usually in terms of the ability of machines to duplicate the antics of humans; but I'm guessing there's a type of Singularity that happens with mankind too. A type of Singularity that has to do with man discovering who he is and standing up to his full height.

 

Do you remember the story of the Tower of Babel? How languages were separated, how man could no longer communicate with one another? It may be an analogy for the onset of the differences in man; those differences are now being eliminated. We can even speak to each other on our computers and have it automatically translate for us! It seems to be reaching a culmination of sorts; what is beyond the culmination is anybody's guess.

 

YOU are the presence you've always looked for. It is inside YOU, not out there. When we can get down to it (here's that ugly inner cultivation thing again) we can hear it, we can feel it, and we know what to do in each and every situation.

 

It's merely a process that has to start somewhere, with each one of us. I actually consider myself fortunate that I was an alcoholic and had to do inner work to keep from drinking any more. It was this very misfortune that kicked this process off, totally unbeknownst to me at the time.

 

To start the process for yourself, just look at what made you angry or irritated today. Throw any defensiveness away and try to step to the side of yourself; assume you have every character flaw there is. Try to see exactly what part you played in an argument, what you were defending, why you were angry. Find out what your selfishnesses are, where your jealousies lie, where you are less than honest. Look and see if you are obsessive in some ways; if you are, it's covering up something you don't want to look at. Do this cleansing process daily - look for your part in these events always. Do not be afraid to see that you are less than you actually are. In reality, you are More than you actually think you are. But you must find this out for yourself. Figure out your memories; they are there for a reason, becuase you had some emotional reaction to an event. Our lives are the very mirror that we need, the compass that shows us what direction we are heading toward.

 

Know yourself. That's where it lives. This is also the road that must be taken for enlightenment, which is, essentially, knowing who you Are. Enlightened people don't need to pray to something out there, they know that communally we are It. They take ultimate responsibility for their lives, don't look for excuses to avoid blame.

 

Have you ever heard that when a person finally reaches enlightenment, he laughs? This is why. It turns out God is exactly opposite where we were originally taught he was.

 

But isn't that perfect in a yin-yang sort of way?

 

Very enjoyable read .

 

"It's merely a process that has to start somewhere, with each one of us. I actually consider myself fortunate that I was an alcoholic and had to do inner work to keep from drinking any more. It was this very misfortune that kicked this process off, totally unbeknownst to me at the time."

 

Isn't that the truth. I've spiritually progressed more in these last few months of suffering than from my entire lifetime combined. I think I read a quote once that said something like you never change until you hit rock bottom; makes perfect sense though, why bother changing yourself if things are going perfectly. Suffering is like our personal wake-up call from the universe that something is out of balance and needs to change.

[Otis]

To start the process for yourself, just look at what made you angry or irritated today. Throw any defensiveness away and try to step to the side of yourself; assume you have every character flaw there is. Try to see exactly what part you played in an argument, what you were defending, why you were angry. Find out what your selfishnesses are, where your jealousies lie, where you are less than honest. Look and see if you are obsessive in some ways; if you are, it's covering up something you don't want to look at. Do this cleansing process daily - look for your part in these events always. Do not be afraid to see that you are less than you actually are. In reality, you are More than you actually think you are. But you must find this out for yourself. Figure out your memories; they are there for a reason, becuase you had some emotional reaction to an event. Our lives are the very mirror that we need, the compass that shows us what direction we are heading toward.

This is very good advice, Manitou.

 

I fully appreciate your view on "God is within us". I have seen the world with a very similar model, and it makes more sense to me than any hierarchical or alienated theology. I also appreciate the growing and suffering you've had to go through, in order to see things the way you do.

 

I am an agnostic when it comes to matters of the actual world; it's too far removed from my immediate experiences, which is all of my inner world. But the theology that makes the most sense to me, is the view that you described above.

[manitou]

I'm sort of an atheist myself. I see it more as an Intelligence than anything.