How does Taoist immortality work?

[gendao]

Immortality is about escaping the limitations of spacetime & transcending the duality between physical & spiritual. You become the "you" that is confined to neither, but can exist in either.

The realized Sage has mastered of matter of space and time so he is thrice great, like Hermes Trismegistus.

 

For such a one, the energy that was trapped in the matter of the body is now free. And this freed [energy] can be willed, at any time, to materialization, or back again into dematerialization. This is the highest aspect of the alchemical praxes of Solve et Coagula to manifest and to dissolve. Thus one who has attained the Immortal Body can appear and disappear at will, because s/he controls the processes of formation and dissolution, and is therefore a master of life and death. Each time s/he materializes, and takes on a from that physical senses can perceive, the entire process of incarnation is repeated in a few moments. Every time the Sage dissolves their body from physical vibratory rates, the whole process of dissolution that happens after death, is rapidly repeated in moments. The whole process of incarnation and evolution is a continual event for one whose consciousness is rooted in eternity.

Or so I guess...don't quote me on that.

Very informative post by Vortex. The age of 1200 may be an exaggeration but it could well be accurate or close to the truth. There are other immortals in other systems, both some mysterious ones, past and present, and at least one well documented Chinese one.

 

There are seven levels or types of immortal in Taoism, and they were spelled out on my forum, but I just deleted my forum yesterday.

 

Abandon beliefs, there are too many beliefs here.

 

As long as I'm here on Goldisheavy's thread I will mention that I have an opening for a new student as one of them just flunked/was kicked out, and since the primary function of this forum is for teachers to display their wares I could do it too.

Dammit, you tease!! You can't leave us hanging like that!

 

And what does being your student entail?

Edited June 3, 2010 by vortex

[Stigweard]

A well crafted inquiry Gold

 

This is no small subject as immortality lies at the heart of Taoist ontology, and I would even go as far as to say all Taoist discussion is synonymously about immortality.

 

Firstly, to say that there is no mention of immortality in 'the big 3' is very far from the truth. But to see its referencing you have to accept that Taoist immortality is much more subtle and mysterious then the crass idea of being able to physically live for 10,000 years. I will divulge more about this in a moment.

 

Also, the 'big three' are only 'big' because they are what all the various branches agree upon as a common belief. They cannot be regarded as represetative of 'all' Taoist ontology.

 

There are plenty of explicit references in the Daozhang about Hsien Hua, transformation into an immortal, for immortality to be regarded as central to the Taoist corpus (The Jade Emperor's Heart Seal Sutra [Daozhang 13] comes immediately to mind).

 

So what is Taoist immortality?

 

Like many branches of esoterica, Taoism endeavors to elucidate the mystery of birth and death and the possible evolution of the human soul.

 

Where does birth come from? Where does death go to? These are fundamental questions pondered by Zhuangzi and Laozi.

 

Life is the companion of death, and death is the beginning of life. Who knows how to disentangle4 them? When a man is born, it is due to the gathering of the life force. When it gathers, there is life; when it disperses, there is death. Since life and death are companions to each other, what worries do I have? Therefore ten thousand things are but one. What men praise is the wonder (of life), what they abhor is corruption (in death). But what has corrupted transforms itself into what is wonderful, and the wonderful again transforms itself into the corruptible. Zhuangzi chapter 22

 

Life is a going forth; death is a returning home

Of ten, three are seeking life, three are seeking death, and three are dying.

What is the reason? Because they live in life's experience.

Laozi chapter 50

 

It would appear that, on the surface, Taoism offers two options for immortality (though I personally believe they are one and the same).

 

The first is a 'philosophical immortality,' though perhaps 'immortal awareness' could be closer to the mark. It is where the sage aligns a view of the world that is universal and thus eternal.

 

The second could be referred to as 'alchemical immortality' where the sage has refined their being and elevated their soul so that their consciousness persists beyond death's usual dissolution.

 

The reason I believe they are one and the same is because alchemical immortality is not possible without first attaining immortal awareness, and one cannot truly align an immortal awareness without symbiotically initiating the process of alchemical immortality.

 

Immortal awareness is about an acceptance of the cyclic nature of life; life leads to death and death leads to life. Without trying to overly strengthen life or overly prevent death, the sage's awareness enters the 'slipstream' of Universal mindedness. By not attaching to the individualistic self the sage unites their awareness with the eternal Tao.

 

Heaven is long and earth is eternal.

The reason that heaven and earth are long and eternal

Is because they do not live for self.

Thus they live long.

 

Laozi chapter 7

 

All things are in process, rising and returning. Plants come to blossom, but only to return to the root. Returning to the root is like seeking tranquility; it is moving towards its destiny. To move toward destiny is like eternity. To know eternity is enlightenment, and not to recognize eternity brings disorder and evil.

 

Knowing eternity makes one comprehensive; comprehension makes one broadminded; breadth of vision brings nobility; nobility is like heaven.The heavenly is like Dao. Dao is the Eternal. The decay of the body is not to be feared.

 

Laozi chapter 16

 

So immortal awareness is about having an alignment of consciousness that is one with universal awareness and thus, whilst embracing the inevitability of physical death, exists beyond the limits of birth and death.

 

But what about alchemical immortality? Is it possible? Many schools of Taoism certainly believe so. But how is it possible? And how do you 'do it'?

 

Most of the Taoist immortality discussions revolve around this passage from chapter 33 in Laozi:

 

知足者富。強行者有志。

不失其所者久。死而不亡者壽。

 

Legge's Translation:

 

He who does not fail in the requirements of his position, continues long;

he who dies and yet does not perish, has longevity.

 

Susuki's Translation

 

One who loses not his place endures.

One who may die but will not perish, has life everlasting.

 

Goddard's Translation

 

He who dares to act has nerve; if he can maintain his position he will endure,

but he, who dying does not perish, is immortal.

 

My favorite of course is Hua Ching Ni's Translation:

 

One who does not divert his mind from

the realization of integral virtue is wisely willful.

One who preserves his natural integrity will endure.

One who embraces the subtle essence dies,

yet does not perish,

and thus enjoys true immortality.

 

The key phrase here is "He who dies without perishing". What does this mean?

 

Firstly it should be noted that Taoists aren't trying to avoid death; death in the immortal awareness world-view is embraced as a necessary part of life. There is the inference here though that he who can maintain and preserve their integral nature can endure beyond the cessation of physical life.

 

And so we are presented here with a type of spiritual immortality. That with the right practice the sage can be "born" into a new spiritual incarnation.

 

So how does it 'work'?

 

Without going through all the theory, Taoist ontology views the individual self as a composite of many souls. We have a group called Hun and another group called Po. Our Hun souls are heavenly or celestial in nature, whilst the Po souls are bodily, physical, and animalistic in nature.

 

At death it is said that all of our souls that were once working together dissipate and dissolve apart, the Hun returning to the heavens and the Po returning to the earth. This is what can be called 'normal' biological destiny.

 

However, many Taoists believe that, with the right instruction and with the right alchemical processes, this soul composite can be refined/elevated into a higher energy state so that they don't dissipate at death and instead form the 'body' of a new spiritual being. The physical body still dies but the energy of consciousness evolves into a new phase of existence.

 

Interestingly enough the success of the practitioner's endeavor is determined by how much of him or her is left over after they die. If only fingernails and hair is left then you have a right-hand seat beside the Jade Emperor

 

So how do you do it?

 

Here is Hua Ching Ni's translation of "The Jade Emperor's Heart Seal Sutra":

 

The precious immortal medicine is contained within you:

...shen as spirit and mind,

...chi as general vitality,

...and ching as sexual energy.

They are one energy manifested in different forms.

To maintain integrity, do not employ them in isolation.

Before manifestation, this high potency of life

...is whole and subtle.

In your cultivation, return to the subtle breath

...before you were born.

After a certain length of time, wholeness can be seen;

...it will become the foundation of your spiritual empire.

You then can have a personal audience with

...the Jade Emperor who sits firmly on the throne within.

With him, you ride on the natural cycle of universal energy

...and are able to ascend from the lower sphere of nature

...to the high Heavenly realms.

For the person of high intelligence,

...this is easy to fulfill;

...but for the ignorant it is difficult to accept.

In the early morning's dawn,

...inhale and exhale the clarity and purity.

Like the fetus,

...rest in the mysterious womb of the mother.

In this way you gather your own subtle essence

...and enjoy steady subtle growth.

As the integrity of your life is restored,

...you will find the true fulfillment of immortality:

...all things are only temporarily named.

The truth of immortality is dependent

...on your integrated new life of wholeness.

Your integrated new life of wholeness

...is able to penetrate the densest stones

...and soar freely in the ethereal sky.

This integrated new life cannot be drowned,

...nor can it be burned in the hottest fire.

In general, spirit must integrate with form,

...subtle essence depends on vital chi.

Once achieved it becomes undecaying and unwithering

...like an evergreen.

In the beginning these three are not separate;

...as one, their subtle power is beyond the mind's grasp.

Only when they are completely integrated

...do we have the precious Immortal Medicine.

When they are separated, there is no power.

For the achieved one,

...the seven orifices communicate with each other,

...each imparting its own subtle light.

Once you gain immortality,

...your body becomes light.

Your inner Sun and Moon will shine

...in the "Golden Court" of your life being.

You will glow with an auspicious light

...and be filled with the most precious harmony.

 

It is said that if you recite this sutra 10,000 times it's subtle truth will be revealed to you

[Dalan sa Kilat]

I am curious about the vision of Taoist immortality. First a small amount of background info on where I stand with Taoism: I prefer information that's been made available in translation of Lao Tzu (Laozi), Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi) and Lieh Tzu (Liezi). Upon reading all 3 authors in translation (in English), and in some cases reading 2 or more competing translations, I come out in complete agreement with the 3 big dudes of Taoism. I agree with them. I think they raise interesting questions and tell interesting stories. And I think one can extract a lot of very valuable and practical advice for both day to day life and for esoteric practice.

 

However! And this is a big however, not only is there no mention of immortality in the 3 key Taoist texts, but what's even worse for the seekers of immortality, they appear to advocate embracing the change! All 3 talk about the seasons, and how there is a season for everything. How things take their turns. Chuang Tzu specifically talks about death and asks something to the effect of, "Is death really as bad as we think? Why not embrace it?" This seems completely opposite of the attitude of the immortality seekers (More Pie Guy, and other serious neigong practitioners, can you hear me? ). So I don't think real Taoism has anything to do with immortality. At the same time, I admit I find all the stories of immortals to be interesting and I don't dismiss them out of hand either, but this brings me to my questions.

 

...

 

This is the grand question... I am not sure if someone who understands the way has actually answered it for you. Being one who is seeking understanding myself; I will offer you what I know.

....

This is a message to all that reads this... I have removed this answer... you can find it in another topic under my personal practice forum. As to why I deleted it; you will find that answer there too.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Dalan sa Kilat

[Tao99]

.

.

.

 

It is said that if you recite this sutra 10,000 times it's subtle truth will be revealed to you

 

 

You are a student of Master Ni Hua Ching right? What good fortune! That translation can last you a life time of study - beautiful. Your website is a good resource too.

 

PS I was wrong; sometimes the internet is awesome!

Edited June 10, 2010 by Tao99

[RongzomFan]

* A lower level immortal person has a human flesh body, but never becomes old, he can live in the human world for as long time as he like.

 

 

This is the type which I am interested in

 

 

and the method is?

Edited June 3, 2010 by alwayson

[yuanqi]

alot of great knowledge, some right out of the same books i have on my shelf. LOL nice discourses. now that we have philosophicalized it to the nth degree let start on how. the definition of immortal will vary or we can just say its one of the 7, who really cares. the alchemical technique is what i want to know. not that i will practice it since i have my own methods of practice now. but after 22 yrs of searching i would love to have someone not relay something else i have read or have thought of after reading the same books and give me the nitty gritty. not trying to be rude or brash. just stating the facts. we have discussed different beliefs, we all have opinions, there have been posts that were directly from the books, there have been others that were....well just there....and so back to how it works, whats the technique????????????? (and please dont copy something out of a book and say you have to fire the cauldron, taste the elixir of immortality, mount the dragon and ascend into heaven, after slaying the guardians. LOL) bueller, bueller......

Edited June 3, 2010 by yuanqi

[Lucky7Strikes]

These videos we speak of aren't what you think. I will make a DVD or two because my friend asked me to but they will only be offered within our family (kung fu family) and they will consist of a form consisting of beginner level movements of my chi kung practice (actually nei kung, but few appear to know what that actually is) for health. One may be of beginning/intermediate level practices. I don't think I should bother offering them for sale on the internet, there are already enough good chi kung videos out there.

 

There is no point in making videos of special abilities, there are also plenty of those already out there on the internet, some are real and some are tricks. Some 'believers' are fooled by the tricks but all the non believers will assure you that the real ones are tricks; so what's the point?

 

Concerning Gold, I find his frequent pontificating about the negative aspects of teachers to be misleading to others and it is annoying to me so I will not teach him anything, even if he could learn. While I agree with what he says about teachers who only teach with words, he goes too far. If he had asked what immortal means in Taoism he may well have gotten an answer from someone but instead he assumed it meant something that it doesn't and writes his lengthy diatribe about how it can't be, which I didn't read much of.

 

Same old shit, over and over and over.

 

AWWWWWWWWWWW HELL NOO!!!!

 

YOU AIN'T SPECIAL!!

 

TURN AROUND, ACT LIKE YOU KNO!!

[Lucky7Strikes]

It IS something you gain, it takes a lot of determination and hard work, both in this life and previous ones, it takes a golden attitude towards giving, and it takes a bunch of good luck.

YOU SOOO GOLDEN!!!

 

AWWWWW!!! SOO POWERFULLL

 

SOOOO SPECIALLLLL

 

SOOOO MUCH HARD WORK!!!

 

DID YOU BREAST FEED YOURSELF TOO???

 

 

[Lucky7Strikes]

Here are some of the types of immortals, and they can occur in any and probably all of the true spiritual systems.

 

* A lower level immortal person has a human flesh body, but never becomes old, he can live in the human world for as long time as he like.

 

* A higher level immortal person has matured his divine body so that he can abandon his flesh body;

 

* An even higher level immortal has not only matured his divine body, but also converted his flesh body into light (photons). he can transform himself to anything and can have many dividing bodies, so that he can appear as various forms synchronously at many places, or be invisible to human eyes.

 

* For an immortal of the level higher than the above, the whole universe is his body, all things in the universe are his manifestations. he can also appear as an individual being, but even heavenly gods cannot recognize him.

 

This information was written by my good friend, Alphone.

DUDE THAT'S, UM, YEA, LIKE...

 

SOOO AWESOMEE....COOOLL

 

YOU KNOW I DON'T LIKE GOING TO THE TOILET EVERYDAY

 

AND LIKE THIS PHYSICAL DECOMPSING THING TOTALLY SUCKS!!

[Tao99]

Edited June 10, 2010 by Tao99

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

It doesn't work Gold. We are all going to die.

 

 

What a golden ray of sunlight you are!

 

 

I have the answer to Golds question.

 

There is such a thing as immortality and I have seen it.

 

The specific techniques are as follows, all Gold has to do is simply kill Conner MacCleoud in Highlander. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

 

It also can't hurt if he's listening to Queen on his mp3 player at the time.

 

I hope this has helped clear the whole thing up.

 

[thelerner]

 

I have the answer to Golds question.

 

There is such a thing as immortality and I have seen it.

 

The specific techniques are as follows, all Gold has to do is simply kill Conner MacCleoud in Highlander. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

 

It also can't hurt if he's listening to Queen on his mp3 player at the time.

 

 

Don't listen to him. Taking MacCleoud's head will undo your immortality. Though you will be THE ONE, and thats got to be worth something.

 

 

 

Few, hopefully I've straightened that up and kept a few immortals from dying.

[Mal]

Few, hopefully I've straightened that up and kept a few immortals from dying.

 

You may have saved some immortals but I think this guy is already "The One"

 

[Starjumper]

Dammit, you tease!! You can't leave us hanging like that!

 

And what does being your student entail?

Well for starters it requires being in Seattle most every week for a few years, at least six is best. I only have room for one, so you want I should start a thread on it? Very few people have the right stuff so it would be best if they already lived in Seattle anyway.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Is this what your Buddha taught u? LOL

WHO DAT???

 

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT???

[Lucky7Strikes]

Don't listen to him. Taking MacCleoud's head will undo your immortality. Though you will be THE ONE, and thats got to be worth something.

 

 

 

Few, hopefully I've straightened that up and kept a few immortals from dying.

You know, Gold can probably like....

 

DECAPITATE THAT MOFO BY JUST THINKING ABOUT HIM GETTING DECAPITATED!!!

 

WHOOOOAAA

[Stigweard]

alot of great knowledge, some right out of the same books i have on my shelf. LOL nice discourses. now that we have philosophicalized it to the nth degree let start on how. the definition of immortal will vary or we can just say its one of the 7, who really cares. the alchemical technique is what i want to know. not that i will practice it since i have my own methods of practice now. but after 22 yrs of searching i would love to have someone not relay something else i have read or have thought of after reading the same books and give me the nitty gritty. not trying to be rude or brash. just stating the facts. we have discussed different beliefs, we all have opinions, there have been posts that were directly from the books, there have been others that were....well just there....and so back to how it works, whats the technique????????????? (and please dont copy something out of a book and say you have to fire the cauldron, taste the elixir of immortality, mount the dragon and ascend into heaven, after slaying the guardians. LOL) bueller, bueller......

 

Recite the sutra I shared 10,000 times as per the traditional instruction and report back when you are done.

 

[Apech]

Hi Apepch7,

 

 

 

I'm surprised you decided to jump into this pool of mud.

 

Yes, even Jesus (the body) died. What happened to what many people call the soul? Well, of course, it went back up to Heaven.

 

Yes, there is a great difference between physical immortality and spiritual immortality.

 

I can speak only to the physical aspect because I know nothing about spiritual immortality that preserves the identity of the individual.

 

So if Gold comes back to his thread maybe we can get him to define whether he was asking about the physical or the spiritual.

 

Your questions are all valid to this topic. But I'm staying mum for the moment. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Marblehead I like to foolishly rush in where angels fear to tread ... its just how I am.

 

Someone on here said the 'lowest level' of immortality is the physical one! As if that's quite easy!

 

I still think the question around immortality is not how can you do it ... but why do we grow old and die? For instance your body is made of cells which are constantly renewed and replaced ... completely every seven years ... so your cells are quite young even though you are quite old. Why do our bones get brittle, our muscles weak and our senses start failing? Why does our hair grow white and our teeth wobble when the cells comprising those things are less than seven years old. But it does happen ... so if its not the matter that makes up the body which is growing old then what is getting old? And since as you point out Marblehead we all die ... then why is this necessary? And if you know why it is happening, why it is necessary then why would you work against it? As a Taoist at one with nature why would you work against a natural process?

Edited June 3, 2010 by apepch7

[z00se]

It's known that time is not linear and that at some moments time passes very fast (like when you're doing something fun) and sometimes goes very slow (like when you're doing something you don't like).

 

When time moves fast it can seem like only a short passage of time but actually according to the external clock alot of time has passed. If you live 'in' each moment then the exists the possibility that each moment can become longer and longer, while seeming shorter and shorter. This could happen infinately. I heard on the news on the radio that reserch revealed that this percieved time does actually matter and that REAL time could be measured by it. (Of course the speed something travels effects time also ie. time stops while something moves at the speed of light so maybe this theory could have some place to play in my idea too.)

 

So then if each moment can become infinately long, those who perfect the art of living (by living each moment to the fullest) could prevent time passing for them, while time is still passing in the outside world. This would then give rise to the possibility of immortality.

 

Just another way immortality could be hypothesised.

[z00se]

The Fred Hollows foundation keeps Fred Hollows immortal in a way also. The saints are immortal too because they are remembered forever. Michael Jackson could just as well be immortal too.

 

But your memory living forever... i don't know. I'm sure there would have been "immortals" that died before anyone in recorded history that are forgotten of now. So their memory doesn't live on FOREVER. Nothing lasts forever in it's original form, not even the sun. Only the Tao remains forever in constant change.

 

I think when you can truely realise and understand that you ARE the tao and that the tao IS you you don't live your life anymore, you live as the tao, organising it and changing it as you would wish. This is the only way to true immortality... by merging with the only thing that remains forever - TAO/GOD.

[C T]

It's known that time is not linear and that at some moments time passes very fast (like when you're doing something fun) and sometimes goes very slow (like when you're doing something you don't like).

 

When time moves fast it can seem like only a short passage of time but actually according to the external clock alot of time has passed. If you live 'in' each moment then the exists the possibility that each moment can become longer and longer, while seeming shorter and shorter. This could happen infinately. I heard on the news on the radio that reserch revealed that this percieved time does actually matter and that REAL time could be measured by it. (Of course the speed something travels effects time also ie. time stops while something moves at the speed of light so maybe this theory could have some place to play in my idea too.)

 

So then if each moment can become infinately long, those who perfect the art of living (by living each moment to the fullest) could prevent time passing for them, while time is still passing in the outside world. This would then give rise to the possibility of immortality.

 

Just another way immortality could be hypothesised.

Mmm i like this hypothesis. I reckon you almost got the full implication of the subject.

 

This is how i see it: I think that in the perfection of the art of living, the aliveness aspect comes from living in the spaces between moments, and not the actual moment itself. In that gap, there is absolutely no recognition of the dualities that bind the mind. In other words, there is no now, no then, no coming, no going, no here, no there, no mortality nor immortality... what remains is only the expansion of becoming. So some 'becomings' are very short, so short in fact that they are often missed, but as a person who practice correctly and for long enough, what may happen is that s/he gets to the stage where the awareness of the 'becoming' becomes more acute, and then eventually the recognition of it expands pervasively.

 

Immortality ought not to be the goal. If it becomes a goal, that itself creates anxiety, wishful thinking and attracts dual perception. Where we want to be is in a space where its pure unadulterated potential, thats all. Just like when people think that sex is wonderful. It is wonderful in fact, only towards the peak of reaching the big O. During that phase of almost getting there, what is present then? Think about it deeply - what is that feeling? Even the word feeling is so lacking because its so much more than that isnt it? In truth, there is no word fit enough to describe it. Right then, we lose time, we lose the world, we lose our thoughts, we lose our 'self', we lose everything, but do we care? So what is it that remains? Only the becoming... At that point, we are MORE than immortals, we arrive beyond the dual notions of mortality and immortality. The big question is how do we practice to sustain a similar sense of becomingness in our daily activities?

 

The emphasis, i conjecture, is in the going. The cream is found in The Way, and the Way is found in the travelling towards it (emphasis put on the journey and not the 'it'). If there was an arrival, it would hardly be appropriate to label it the Way, true? As the saying goes, "There is no way to happiness; Happiness is the way".

 

My 2 pennies...

Edited June 3, 2010 by CowTao

[三江源]

.

Edited March 3, 2015 by 三江源

[Marblehead]

A well crafted inquiry Gold

 

This is no small subject as immortality lies at the heart of Taoist ontology, and I would even go as far as to say all Taoist discussion is synonymously about immortality.

 

Hi Stig,

 

Great post and references!

 

Of course, I am of the belief that 'immortal awareness' and 'alchemic immortality' need not necessarily be linked, in that, 'immortal awareness' can be 'the final destination'.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

This is the grand question... I am not sure if someone who understands the way has actually answered it for you. Being one who is seeking understanding myself; I will offer you what I know.

 

What a wonderful post!!!

 

Thanks for sharing and taking part in this discussion.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

PS I was wrong; sometimes the internet is awesome!

 

And remember, you wanted me to stop badgering for responses to the OP.

 

 

Peace & Love!