How does Taoist immortality work?

[Marblehead]

alot of great knowledge, some right out of the same books i have on my shelf.

 

I had to laugh at your closing. I can't offer anything regarding your basic question but I wish you well with your quest.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

What a golden ray of sunlight you are!

 

 

I have the answer to Golds question.

 

There is such a thing as immortality and I have seen it.

 

The specific techniques are as follows, all Gold has to do is simply kill Conner MacCleoud in Highlander. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

 

It also can't hurt if he's listening to Queen on his mp3 player at the time.

 

I hope this has helped clear the whole thing up.

 

 

 

Thanks Ninpo, you are an inspiration to all of us, I sure. Hehehe. (See how much I know?)

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Marblehead I like to foolishly rush in where angels fear to tread ... its just how I am.

 

Someone on here said the 'lowest level' of immortality is the physical one! As if that's quite easy!

 

I still think the question around immortality is not how can you do it ... but why do we grow old and die? For instance your body is made of cells which are constantly renewed and replaced ... completely every seven years ... so your cells are quite young even though you are quite old. Why do our bones get brittle, our muscles weak and our senses start failing? Why does our hair grow white and our teeth wobble when the cells comprising those things are less than seven years old. But it does happen ... so if its not the matter that makes up the body which is growing old then what is getting old? And since as you point out Marblehead we all die ... then why is this necessary? And if you know why it is happening, why it is necessary then why would you work against it? As a Taoist at one with nature why would you work against a natural process?

 

Yes, I think I know you well enough to know that you would join this discussion.

 

On getting physicaly old, I agree with what you said but have no answers for your questions. I look to nature and see the exact same process in all living things. Why would not the same processes apply to the human species?

 

The processes of nature (laws of physics) rule the physical realm. The spiritual realm is, IMO, ruled by a different set of processes. No, I do not know what they are.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

 

Just another way immortality could be hypothesised.

 

 

Very interesting consideration to this discussion. Thanks for sharing.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

I think when you can truely realise and understand that you ARE the tao and that the tao IS you you don't live your life anymore, you live as the tao, organising it and changing it as you would wish. This is the only way to true immortality... by merging with the only thing that remains forever - TAO/GOD.

 

And another valuable consideration.

 

Thanks.

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

Yes, I think I know you well enough to know that you would join this discussion.

 

On getting physicaly old, I agree with what you said but have no answers for your questions. I look to nature and see the exact same process in all living things. Why would not the same processes apply to the human species?

 

The processes of nature (laws of physics) rule the physical realm. The spiritual realm is, IMO, ruled by a different set of processes. No, I do not know what they are.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Exactly! The natural world requires (if I can put it that way) that beings grow old and die. There is something in us that does this. Its natural. Like the riddle of the Sphinx : what has four legs in the morning, two at midday and three in the evening - answer 'man'.

 

Where I'm going with this ... if there is an alchemical Taoist process which stops aging and overcomes death then it must act on what makes us die. What makes us die is not fundamental to the physical matter that makes us up because that does not die it just changes from being organized as a body to not being organized as a body .... so what does the organizing?

 

Answer that and you will have the answer.

[Marblehead]

This is how i see it:

 

Very nice CowTao. It's worth the 2 pennies, IMO.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Where I'm going with this ... if there is an alchemical Taoist process which stops aging and overcomes death then it must act on what makes us die. What makes us die is not fundamental to the physical matter that makes us up because that does not die it just changes from being organized as a body to not being organized as a body .... so what does the organizing?

 

Answer that and you will have the answer.

 

I have no answer. In fact, I don't even believe it can be done. I just don't see how the eternal processes of nature can be manipulated.

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

I have no answer. In fact, I don't even believe it can be done. I just don't see how the eternal processes of nature can be manipulated.

 

Peace & Love!

 

No I don't think I do either but my question is still the one to answer.

[C T]

No I don't think I do either but my question is still the one to answer.

The attempt will burst my head wide open i think. One big koan... its contemplation leads to 'No Mind', and 'No Mind' is 'Free Mind'!

 

The purpose is in the finding out, not in finding 'it' - look for it in the spaces between concepts, is what i say. When the looking becomes so concentrated, the self, the creator of concepts, simply dissolves. In that dissolution only the starkness of becoming, a prevalent state of resting simply in pure potential remains infinitely. What does life and death mean to one who abides in the unborn and undying realm of pure potentiality? All forms of cultivation, IMO, are merely attempts at stabilizing and lengthening one's connection to this realm. It can become habit. When it does, all cares can be thrown to the winds of change. "A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving..." So true.

 

Easy to say... hard to do.

Edited June 3, 2010 by CowTao

[C T]

Very nice CowTao.

Well so are you, MH... thanks

[3bob]

Nice understanding 3bob. Prettier than mine, I must admit.

 

We come out of the Mystery into life and upon death we go back into the Mystery. (We were nothing [no thing] until born and become [no thing] at death.)

 

So yes, one could attach the concept of immortality to this but I don't because "I" no longer exist at death.

 

And I agree that the line: Because there is in him no place of death. could easily be understood that this person has gone, in his/her mind, beyond the self and has become one with the All. But isn't that just saying that they no longer fear death because, in their mind, their spiritual essence is as eternal as Tao?

 

Peace & Love!

 

"But isn't that just saying that they no longer fear death because, in their mind, their spiritual essence is as eternal as Tao?" MH. I feel that this sentence of yours is getting close...

 

Then again your earlier sentence of, "We were nothing [no thing] until born and become [no thing] at death."

 

...sounds like it is missing a key point to me, specifically that until no-thing realizes it is no-thing it is veiled to its own reality and is thus identified with the ups and downs and ins and outs of what is commonly called our lives and deaths. Thus it is not from becoming or not from unbecoming (as in before birth and after death) that determines or returns us to our original truth which btw we never really left, but an unveiling from and or realization beyond both of those states that delivers us to -no-thing -right now-, right where we've always been, yet without rejection or denial of the 10,000.

 

Om

Edited June 3, 2010 by 3bob

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I postulate that every single one of you posting on this thread is immortal!

 

Where is my evidence?

 

Where is yours that I'm wrong?

 

Prove it!

[宁]

It doesn't work Gold. We are all going to die.

Peace & Love!

Marbles, GIH,

 

I've looked thru all of the answers given here hoping to find one to relate to, and your answer was the most adequate to my feelings about this process...

 

It doesn't work... of course.

When we were little, we couldn't do many things: we can't poop or pee when we want to, we can't walk, we can't even express with words how we really feel etc.

To me, the process of dying is something that I feel it must be an option we do have control of, just as we can control our sphincters.

And even though many sacred taoist texts reffer to immortality as a possible goal, I think they achieve it as a by-product, the ones that matter, they don't care about life and death.

'Don't fear the bitternes of life, or the horror of death.'

To them these don't matter.

Daoist practice is a metaphysical cure for a metaphysical condition.

Trying to cure day-to-day conditions with a metaphysical cure is like trying to kill a musquito with a huge cannon.

I agree that much of the symbolic meaning has been taken too literal.

 

What is the condition?

What is the cure?

These are questions that have significant answer only when you are inside a lineage.

 

 

 

 

 

PS: What I really want to say, is i don't know the answer to the question. And if i really did know, although i love you guys like i love my brothers, i wouldn't tell ya!

[Apech]

I postulate that every single one of you posting on this thread is immortal!

 

Where is my evidence?

 

Where is yours that I'm wrong?

 

Prove it!

 

I'm dieing to prove you wrong.

[Marblehead]

"But isn't that just saying that they no longer fear death because, in their mind, their spiritual essence is as eternal as Tao?" MH. I feel that this sentence of yours is getting close...

 

Then again your earlier sentence of, "We were nothing [no thing] until born and become [no thing] at death."

 

...sounds like it is missing a key point to me, specifically that until no-thing realizes it is no-thing it is veiled to its own reality and is thus identified with the ups and downs and ins and outs of what is commonly called our lives and deaths. Thus it is not from becoming or not from unbecoming (as in before birth and after death) that determines or returns us to our original truth which btw we never really left, but an unveiling from and or realization beyond both of those states that delivers us to -no-thing -right now-, right where we've always been, yet without rejection or denial of the 10,000.

 

Om

 

Hi 3bob,

 

I wish I could carry this further but I cannot. If I expanded on what I have already said I would only be making stuff up that I probably do not hold as a valid consideration. I wish I had more answers than I have but life is that way sometimes.

 

I agree that from many others' point of view my beliefs are missing something. All I can say is that I am at peace with the answers I have. Maybe one day I will be afforded more answers. That's one of the reasons I am here on this board. But then, on the other hand, I don't feel I am in urgent need of more answers at this point in time.

 

Where's my answer book?!?!?!?

 

Peace & Love!

[gendao]

Here are some of the types of immortals, and they can occur in any and probably all of the true spiritual systems.

 

* A lower level immortal person has a human flesh body, but never becomes old, he can live in the human world for as long time as he like.

 

* A higher level immortal person has matured his divine body so that he can abandon his flesh body;

 

* An even higher level immortal has not only matured his divine body, but also converted his flesh body into light (photons). he can transform himself to anything and can have many dividing bodies, so that he can appear as various forms synchronously at many places, or be invisible to human eyes.

 

* For an immortal of the level higher than the above, the whole universe is his body, all things in the universe are his manifestations. he can also appear as an individual being, but even heavenly gods cannot recognize him.

 

This information was written by my good friend, Alphone.

Ahh, coool...

 

Now, does anybody actually personally KNOW any immortals, of any level???

Well for starters it requires being in Seattle most every week for a few years, at least six is best. I only have room for one, so you want I should start a thread on it? Very few people have the right stuff so it would be best if they already lived in Seattle anyway.

Well, dang, that basically rules me out for now...

 

But yea, start a new thread! I'd love to hear your curriculum & prerequisites. I'd also love to see someone here learn from you and give some feedback.

[Marblehead]

I postulate that every single one of you posting on this thread is immortal!

 

Where is my evidence?

 

Where is yours that I'm wrong?

 

Prove it!

 

Okay. So you are messing with us. Hehehe.

 

There are some things that are beyond proving or disproving. You just presented one of them.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

 

PS: What I really want to say, is i don't know the answer to the question. And if i really did know, although i love you guys like i love my brothers, i wouldn't tell ya!

 

 

Thanks a lot, buddy. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Okay. So you are messing with us. Hehehe.

 

There are some things that are beyond proving or disproving. You just presented one of them.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Actually........ there is more evidence to suggest that you, Marblehead, are immortal, much more evidence to the positive than to the negative.

 

To the best of my knowledge you have survived two wars, now you gotta admit.... that's a bit suspect! You must be doin' something right! That's fairly immortal so far.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I'm dieing to prove you wrong.

 

Whatta' card!

[Marblehead]

To the best of my knowledge you have survived two wars, now you gotta admit.... that's a bit suspect! You must be doin' something right! That's fairly immortal so far.

 

 

Hehehe. Yeah, yesterday my friend and I went out for lunch and the subject of death came up and I said, "I plan to live forever. So far I am doing pretty good."

 

There have been three times I know of where I was knocking on Death's door but she wasn't ready for me.

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

There have been three times I know of where I was knocking on Death's door but she wasn't ready for me.

 

Peace & Love!

 

She probably looked through the peep hole and decided it was best not to answer!!! :lol:

[Starjumper]

A picture of Li Ching Yuen taken at approximately 250 years of age:

[sabretooth]

wtm, good point. After stillness-movement sitting meditation the other day, I felt solidly rooted. I do see the importance of cultivating an energetic practice if it is effective.

 

Marblehead, yes we are all going to die. Our physical bodies will go kaput after some time. (75? 100? 150? 250 years?) But, what about our soul and its development? Its refinement?

 

 

Thank you for posting this good question.

 

 

Much of what I have been taught is very similar to what Kosta put in his book's.

I was taught that the soul does eventually run out of energy and dies,it may take thousand's of year's but die it will,unless you put time into some of the energy practices as described by Kosta,for instance.

I was also told that it is perfectly possible to become physically immortal and when you achieve that the body become's indestructable.

 

 

sabretooth.