How does Taoist immortality work?

[Starjumper]

He was at a secret martial arts seminar held last weekend in the mountains where I taught some chi kung, he said watch out for dogma.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Starjumper7

[Starjumper]

The taoist practitioners have done great job in this thread, I'm impressed.

 

Still evidently "if they dont understand, you cant explain".

 

Cat, I love your avatar, as always. I prefer to speak form experience and I'm not there yet so I can't say for sure, but I've seen the writing on the wall. Where there's smoke there's fire and I've seen the smoke.

 

It's really pretty simple and common sensical - and yet these days we are surrounded by a toxic environment, making it more difficult.

 

Essentially it is all about maximizing your health by taking good care of yourself and by cultivating a lot of chi power, which you use on yourself ... in addition to a bunch of other related stuff.

[Marblehead]

A picture of Li Ching Yuen taken at approximately 250 years of age:

 

 

But even he died on May 6, 1933 at the supposed age of either 197 or 256. (His personal claim of his birth date would have made him 197 at death.) No documentation of his birth could ever be found so it is only his claim, undocumented. The longest documented lifespan is 122 years.

 

Peace & Love!

Edited June 3, 2010 by Marblehead

[suninmyeyes]

Here is Indian long lived yogi Devraha Baba also alegedlly lived up to 250 some say more..

http://www.indiadivine.org/articles/451/1/Rare-Footage-of-250-Year-Old-Devraha-Baba-in-Vrindavan/Page1.html

It seems that the general idea in some taoist and yogic practises is very similar(im more familiar with yogic ones).

Ive heard of other long lived and some still alive yogis whilst in India.Very interesting,still very sceptical though.

[RongzomFan]

Has anyone heard of Ben Abba?

[Aetherous]

Since cat seemed disappointed, and I probably unintentionally insulted Marblehead earlier on...

 

The best information I've found in order to understand Taoist immortality is in the introduction of Eva Wong's Tao of Health, Longevity and Immortality. The book is very good for learning a lot about Taoist alchemy and immortality.

 

My understanding after reading the text is that all distinctions (types of immortals, definitions of immortality, etc) are confusing for no good reason. It's like drawing a picture in the sand and labeling that sand as "one" then drawing another picture and labeling that as "2"...it's all sand.

 

I guess I approach it from too much of a "keep it simple stupid" point of view. It kind of seems like it's written in a way to keep people busy and distracted, instead of actually getting there...

 

So that is why I didn't care to comment earlier...I prefer to just practice and not deal with so much theory. What to practice (for those who don't already)? A simple thing anyone can do is get Yang Jwing Ming's Embryonic Breathing book, and you have the best introduction to one of the best practices around...natural and reverse breathing!

[Marblehead]

Thanks for posting Scotty.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

A brief journalistic account (4 pages only) of one man's (Carter Phipps) quest to interview a few individuals who subscribes to the Immortality view through their connection with the famous Immortal Yogi of India - Babaji: http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j21/babaji.asp?page=3

 

Babaji.com transmits a path towards divine union, which leads to attaining the deathless. Cute, i thought. http://www.babaji.com/

Edited June 4, 2010 by CowTao

[三江源]

.

Edited April 9, 2015 by 三江源

[C T]

 

My understanding after reading the text is that all distinctions (types of immortals, definitions of immortality, etc) are confusing for no good reason. It's like drawing a picture in the sand and labeling that sand as "one" then drawing another picture and labeling that as "2"...it's all sand.

 

I guess I approach it from too much of a "keep it simple stupid" point of view. It kind of seems like it's written in a way to keep people busy and distracted, instead of actually getting there...

 

So that is why I didn't care to comment earlier...I prefer to just practice and not deal with so much theory.

This is a great view to have Scott imo.

 

The thing is there will come a time when one can no longer separate practice and non-practice, in that the 'practice' gets to overflow into mundane activities.. that's when the fun begins! Then the 'being' is constantly infused with a kind 'bubbliness' (for want of a word) in the heart region, and there is simply a sense of surreal lightness all around. Of course this will not be possible if one is not ready to surrender some gross habitual patterns which keeps one mired in the gross body. Thru practice of transforming these habits, like gradually moving from meat to vegetarian to an eventual breatharian diet (just one vital example of habit-changing), in theory, it is said that the gross physical body can be alchemically tuned and refined to reverse the natural physical laws that govern 99.9 percent of us.

 

Keeping it simple is wisdom. Nothing silly about that. Its the intelligent ones that get cemented in things.

Edited June 4, 2010 by CowTao

[sabretooth]

This is the type which I am interested in

 

 

and the method is?

 

My understanding from what I have been taught is in circulating energy through the meridian's.

It is also important to remain celebate,reason being is because you lose a large amount of energy if your not.

The more energy you have in your body the stronger and healthier you will be.

I have noticed from my own practice a strengthening of my body even my skin seem's to be younger and my senses are sharper,whether I will become physically immortal or not,only time will tell.

 

 

 

sabretooth.

[Andrei]

I am curious about the vision of Taoist immortality. First a small amount of background info on where I stand with Taoism: I prefer information that's been made available in translation of Lao Tzu (Laozi), Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi) and Lieh Tzu (Liezi). Upon reading all 3 authors in translation (in English), and in some cases reading 2 or more competing translations, I come out in complete agreement with the 3 big dudes of Taoism. I agree with them. I think they raise interesting questions and tell interesting stories. And I think one can extract a lot of very valuable and practical advice for both day to day life and for esoteric practice.

 

It is not enough... just to read

 

Edited June 5, 2010 by steam

[RiverSnake]

 

PS: What I really want to say, is i don't know the answer to the question. And if i really did know, although i love you guys like i love my brothers, i wouldn't tell ya!

 

 

Lol.

[johndoe2012]

I guess I approach it from too much of a "keep it simple stupid" point of view. It kind of seems like it's written in a way to keep people busy and distracted, instead of actually getting there...

 

I think it is written that way so outsiders couldn't easily understand the practices and that oral transmissions were/are necessary. Sometimes I wonder how far Taoism would have gone if there were a "straight-forward" approach like the eight fold Buddhist path.

[~jK~]

I am curious about the vision of Taoist immortality. First a small amount of background info on where I stand with Taoism: I prefer information that's been made available in translation of Lao Tzu (Laozi), Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi) and Lieh Tzu (Liezi). Upon reading all 3 authors in translation (in English), and in some cases reading 2 or more competing translations, I come out in complete agreement with the 3 big dudes of Taoism. I agree with them. I think they raise interesting questions and tell interesting stories. And I think one can extract a lot of very valuable and practical advice for both day to day life and for esoteric practice.

 

However! And this is a big however, not only is there no mention of immortality in the 3 key Taoist texts, but what's even worse for the seekers of immortality, they appear to advocate embracing the change! All 3 talk about the seasons, and how there is a season for everything. How things take their turns. Chuang Tzu specifically talks about death and asks something to the effect of, "Is death really as bad as we think? Why not embrace it?" This seems completely opposite of the attitude of the immortality seekers (More Pie Guy, and other serious neigong practitioners, can you hear me? ). So I don't think real Taoism has anything to do with immortality. At the same time, I admit I find all the stories of immortals to be interesting and I don't dismiss them out of hand either, but this brings me to my questions.

 

So how does the whole thing work? First, do neigong practitioners really strive for immortality? It seems like many do, but I don't want to assume this. In particular, do any neigong practitioners on this forum want to become immortals?

 

When I look at this world, I think the worst part is not so much that the life is limited in duration or that we are vulnerable, but that things are bureaucratic and that fearful and insecure people take actions that are too extreme for the situation or are not strong enough for the situation (judgment errors), and all these judgment errors accumulate and create a lot of unnecessary suffering.

 

Does anyone consider that if you could live forever on this planet, life would be boring? Are you planning to be am immortal on this planet or will you fly away? Does anyone think that having a lot of personal history is as much a disadvantage as it is an advantage? On the plus side, you remember a lot of lessons, let's say, but on the minus side, as an immortal you carry a lot of historical baggage that prevents you from seeing in new ways. Try to imagine someone with a 1,000,000 year history. Is that helpful?

 

As a way of a small example, when I dream, on most occasions I do not remember who I am in the waking world (unless I am lucid, in which case I cam remember everything about the body being in bed, about who I am in the waking world, and so on). For the most part, not remembering who I am outside the context of a dream is not necessarily a hindrance or something bad. I've not really been inconvenienced by it. There are some things I do want to remember, but they tend to be more of a principle than remembering all the actual life events. So for example, I want to remember in all of my dreams that I am not controlled by my dreams. But I don't necessarily care to remember that in my waking life, 4 hours before I went to sleep, I drank a glass of water. That seems silly and useless. I think most life events are useless to remember. When I die, I don't necessarily want to remember all of this life, but I do want to remember some "takeaway points" if you will. Some useful transcendent principles. I actually would like to forget all the other fluff. But as an immortal, it seems like you'd have a very long (infinite?) personal history with lots of useless junk in it.

 

I also wonder about this: where do troubles come from? For example, why do people form insane bureaucracies? Is it because I am a mortal? So if I become an immortal, suppose I go to the Jade Palace, the land of the immortals. How can I be sure it won't be a yet another crappy bureaucracy? Why does everyone seem to be assuming that every other world out there, especially the ones immortals depart to, are really nice places to be, and so nice in fact, that one would wish to stay there forever in an eternal body? I think it's kind of funny, but imagine you arrive at the Jade Palace where everyone is an immortal, and so, first of all, you're no longer special. You're not an immortal among mortals. Now you are an average Joe in this new world. They tell you to take a number. You see a big line and start waiting. Eventually you reach a little window and they hand you out a little ID card and so on.

 

If these immortals live as a society, surely they'll have conflicting interests. And if that's the case, surely they'll have bureaucracies or worse to manage all the conflicts. On the other hand, maybe immortals are not really social. Maybe immortals are like lone cats that wonder through the universe(s) alone? But then I have to ask this: if you accept a departure from society in your psyche, surely you can be very resplendently happy right here and right now without going anywhere? Social conflicts only have meaning if you really care about society, are interested in it, want to be a social participant and so forth.

 

Then, let's say you are not bothered by any social concerns. Let's say the thing that bothers you is your bodily frailty. Now, suppose you practice neigong to refine your body, or give birth to a new body. This represent a change from one body to another, through effort. If you can accomplish a change in body through effort, doesn't it make sense that you'll need to continue to expend further effort to maintain this body in good shape, and that as soon as you stop expending effort, the body will collapse and die? In other words, if the body is not already and inherently immortal, and if it is your effort that made it immortal, what makes you think the body won't require further effort to stay immortal? This also means constantly worrying about the onset of mortality. So even if you're an immortal, you will still have constant worry and concern that if you're not vigilant, you can revert to mortal condition at any time. Isn't this kind of life as much hassle as being a mortal in the first place? What if you learn to accept bodily modifications, including any and all disease, pain, and so on, and learn to transcend it internally without requiring that your body itself be made immortal? How does that option sound?

 

Another thing is belief in substance. Do you, neigong practitioners, believe in substance? In other words, do you believe you are transmuting and dealing with subtle substances in the body when you practice neigong? In my opinion, if you believe that all phenomena are backed by some universal objectively existent substance, the best way to manipulate and study such substance is with the scientific method. On the other hand, let's say you reject the idea of an ultimate universal objective substance. This would mean you believe all phenomena are manifestations of the primordial objectless awareness, like a blind man seeing rainbows and like a deaf man hearing music, etc., just visions without any substance or objects behind them. This means you can learn to control and to orchestrate these visions, but then, why bother with such substance-tied ideas as energy and energy meridians? You have so much freedom if you believe everything is just mind. So why not use that freedom? Why make up a vision of energy channels that mimic the body's shape? What is the point of that? I can understand if you believe those channels are inherently there because that's how the universal objective substance is arranged, you have to follow what's been given to you at birth. But if you don't believe there's anything objective that's been "given" to you, and if you realize your own body is just a vision, why make another vision on top of it? Why create a vision of energy meridians on top of this already visionary body? Why not, for example, simply dissolve the body, or depart from it? Why tinker with it?

 

So it seems, if you set out to tinker with the body, you must really believe in substance, but if you really believe in substance, then science is the much better way to study and to manipulate substance. But if you don't believe in substance, practices like MCO make very little sense.

 

Is it because MCO is traditional and thus, safe? Is there safety in tradition? Safety in numbers? So if you made up your own practice, you'd feel you are crazy, right? But if you follow what thousands of others have followed, you feel much safer, more sane, right? But if you are that attached to society and social conventions, then how do you expect to live a happy life as an immortal? Please refer to immortal bureaucracy above.

 

Please understand that I am not a doubting Thomas. I believe almost anything is possible. I believe you can go through walls if you want, and leave your footprints in the rock. None of this requires one to be an immortal or to practice MCO. I just think that the idea immortality and the idea that energy practice leads to immortality is... how shall I say it... not consistent with itself. It hides a lot of contradictions and it betrays a lot of hidden weakness. So for example, immortal should be fearless, but how can you develop fearlessness by attaching yourself to an old tradition for safety sake? Big contradiction there.

 

I don't want to inhibit anyone. I am not trying to convince anyone to be like me. I like the different things that people do and like I said, I do believe a lot of strange things are possible. I hope someone can respond to some of the questions I raise for my own enjoyment and elucidation, and hopefully it will be fun for other people as well.

IMMORTALITY IS REINCARNATION

The literature can only hint into the reality.

The rest must come from either experience or reasoning.

(A Hint)It helps tremendously to be immersed in the culture.

Being told about it, etc, is nothing compared to understanding it.

You got to walk the walk before you can talk the talk of INDUCTANCE.

[Martial Development]

I think it is written that way so outsiders couldn't easily understand the practices and that oral transmissions were/are necessary. Sometimes I wonder how far Taoism would have gone if there were a "straight-forward" approach like the eight fold Buddhist path.

 

Wonder no more.

 

If people are required to make a sacrifice in order to inherit the deepest and subtlest practices, that isn't such a bad thing, is it? Or would you prefer that, when inquiring about neidan, you are offered a gift bag of moisturizer and second-rate Starbucks tea?

[~jK~]

I think it is written that way so outsiders couldn't easily understand the practices and that oral transmissions were/are necessary. Sometimes I wonder how far Taoism would have gone if there were a "straight-forward" approach like the eight fold Buddhist path.

 

To me, it has been like a puzzle - once the pattern emerges, it kinda just all falls into place.

Beyond the shadow of a doubt -Meditation is the key to the door of understanding.

As it was happening, I saw it as a phaze of enlightenment - but it was only a step 1. Since, there has been steps 2,3,4,5,6,7,8, ... and by now I'm hoping they never end.

 

One thing about Hong Kong is I can go places and not need to drive - there are Busses, trains etc to take you everywhere you want to go. A few of the phases could have been bad news if I was driving... Also I meditate a lot where I am in one city when beginning and ZAPO - I just lost an hour... Or maybe I just gained an hour... ?

[Sunya]

Zen student says, "So, master, is the soul immortal or not? Do we survive our bodily death or do we get annihilated? Do we really reincarnate? Does our soul split up into component parts which get recycled, or do we as a single unit enter the body of a biological organism? And do we retain our memories or not? Or is the doctrine of reincarnation false? Is perhaps the Christian notion of survival more correct? And if so, do we get bodily resurrected, or does our soul enter a purely Platonic spiritual realm?

 

Zen master responds, "Your breakfast is getting cold".

(*The Tao is Silent*, p194).

[adept]

Zen student says, "So, master, is the soul immortal or not? Do we survive our bodily death or do we get annihilated? Do we really reincarnate? Does our soul split up into component parts which get recycled, or do we as a single unit enter the body of a biological organism? And do we retain our memories or not? Or is the doctrine of reincarnation false? Is perhaps the Christian notion of survival more correct? And if so, do we get bodily resurrected, or does our soul enter a purely Platonic spiritual realm?

 

Zen master responds, "Your breakfast is getting cold".

(*The Tao is Silent*, p194).

 

Excellent !

[Marblehead]

Zen master responds, "Your breakfast is getting cold".

(*The Tao is Silent*, p194).

 

I love it!

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Peace & Love!

[goldisheavy]

Zen student says, "So, master, is the soul immortal or not? Do we survive our bodily death or do we get annihilated? Do we really reincarnate? Does our soul split up into component parts which get recycled, or do we as a single unit enter the body of a biological organism? And do we retain our memories or not? Or is the doctrine of reincarnation false? Is perhaps the Christian notion of survival more correct? And if so, do we get bodily resurrected, or does our soul enter a purely Platonic spiritual realm?

 

Zen master responds, "Your breakfast is getting cold".

(*The Tao is Silent*, p194).

 

This is why Zen sometimes sucks major donkey balls. I'd slap this Zen "master" silly for such a bullshit answer.

[Apech]

This is why Zen sometimes sucks major donkey balls. I'd slap this Zen "master" silly for such a bullshit answer.

 

Seconded.

 

Nothing against Zen though!

Edited June 7, 2010 by apepch7

[goldisheavy]

I wanted to give my overall impression of this thread. First, I'd like to say thanks to everyone who answered, regardless of what I will say next.

 

Second, for the most part, everyone was busy dodging the questions in one way or another. Most people took it upon themselves to answer simpler questions, such as "Is Immortality possible?" And "What would be my first steps in attaining immortality?" I think these questions did get answered. Is it possible? Most people answer "yes". What are the first steps? "Still the mind" and other naive newbie methods like that.

 

How about some of the more difficult questions? Those remained untouched. I asked a lot of questions. Someone could, for fun, pick the more difficult ones, and answer them. Of course no one did.

 

I asked how Immortality works in the sense of, "What is day to day life of an Immortal like?" Not "how does attaining Immortality work," which is a much easier question.

 

Third thing I noticed is that a lot of people prefer to quote other people. I can understand this. These folks feel they're nobody special to offer their own opinions. Of course what these people don't know is that I precisely wanted to hear real opinions and not quotes of some "illustrious" master. I wanted to know what the real forum denizens here thought in their own words. I've already read more than my fair share of the past masters' words and don't really need a "yet another quote from a yet another master." I want to know what you, real life people think, not what some legendary master thought.

 

It seems that everyone here is busy just following the steps outlined to them. Hardly anyone here has bothered to face the contradictions inherent in the idea of immortality. Hardly anyone has bothered to face their own true desires and wishes. My guess is that everyone is mostly busy pretending not to have many desires, eh? You all forgot about honesty being the foremost spiritual quality of a person. Instead many of you pretend to be something you are not, eh? These are just impressions I have. They are not final or conclusive judgments, and besides, it's just little ol' me, so there is nothing to worry about. It's not like you just got criticized by a very important Master or Immortal, sheesh! You are all quite safe.

 

Once again, thank you everyone for replying.

Edited June 7, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Marblehead]

 

Once again, thank you everyone for replying.

 

 

Okay. So is it fair for me to ask you what your understanding and beliefs are concerning the subject of immortality?

 

Peace & Love!

[三江源]

.

Edited April 9, 2015 by 三江源