Lifeboat ethics

[Cameron]

I am going to agree with Max. Intellectually deciding what you think you may or may not do in this situation is mostly not realistic.

 

But, by doing spiritual or meditative practices and ideally having an enlightenment experience, you can be sure you will end up doing the right thing.

 

IMO and all that..

[Lozen]

M.A.

 

You have asked me some questions about things that are pretty intensely personal, and I would probably be open to responding if I didn't feel like you were directing such hostility in my general direction. I hope you find the answers you need in some other way.

 

I hold up the mirror.

[Mushtaq Ali]

M.A.

 

You have asked me some questions about things that are pretty intensely personal, and I would probably be open to responding if I didn't feel like you were directing such hostility in my general direction. I hope you find the answers you need in some other way.

 

I hold up the mirror.

 

 

Then you better take a quick look in it. There is no hostility on my part. As a matter of fact I am feeling pretty mellow, having spent the day being reminded of plesent memories of home.

[sean]

Pietro, I knew you'd dig this question. Incredibly intriguing response you've given. What a fascinating reframe with throwing a bodhisattva before a rapist, because the boddhisatva can easily reincarnate more seamlessly whereas the rapist would go into an afterlife without a chance to release his terrible karma. This suggests to me that you have a strong enough belief in an afterlife and reincarnation cosmology to base a life or death decision on it, would you agree?

 

Mushtaq, I also feel like you are coming across fairly acerbically toward Lozen. It could be that tone of voice is not being conveyed properly. But I think coming onto this forum and within three posts basically interrogating another long time member of this community is not the way to win friends and influence people. Let's concentrate more on our own responses to the question, and less to nitpicking people we don't know yet. Especially in such a sensitive topic as I've already mentioned.

 

Max and Cameron, I wholeheartedly agree that you can not arrive at a definitive intellectual answer from this question. The idea isn't to create some codified ethics that you can write down and refer to if ever you are in a situation like this. A real situation like this, first off, would not be so contrived and second off would call upon all of your heart wisdom and intuition to arrive at an answer that was true for you in that moment only. This is just a thought experiment to help you tease out and contemplate how you already structure your values. You already have a network of values and this is a practice to shine a light on them IMO.

 

Sean

[affenbrot]

This is just a thought experiment to help you tease out and contemplate how you already structure your values. You already have a network of values and this is a practice to shine a light on them IMO.

Sean

 

I still would say it is not a good thought experiment to find out how you structure your values, because:

I have the idea that this situation is one of life and death. In a life and death situation my reptilian brain parts would gear in. There is no reptile with ethics and values beyond eat /not eat, live/ die. Reptile and moral don't go together. Acting from this part of the brain I probably would throw out just the first three without thinking much. Which does not show my kind of values but just my kind of survival instinct and panic.

 

A question like -you have a certain amount of money at hand you have to donate to people, how would you decide? - would allow more contemplation of ethics, imho.

 

affenbrot

[BobD]

Wow, seriously difficult question!

 

I've been trying to think what I would do and have been unable to come up with anything more than a somewhat wishy-washy "let the group try to decide" answer.

 

Partly because I dont think I would be able to enforce any decision that I made anyway (I dont have too much faith in my own authority, and even less in my physical stature/ability!)

 

Partly because I very much agree that you really cannot judge someone to the extent that a decision like this requires without knowing them a whole lot more that you possibly could under these circumstances

 

Partly because it is only through an open discussion with everyone that you might discover ideas or other talents that might enable you to save more that the alloted 7

 

and of course partly because it is much easier to get others to make the decision that have to forever burden myself wth the guilt!

 

Not only can there be no right or real answer to this one, I dont think that there can be a real approach to follow either. The thought processes and eventual decision will be so different for different sets of people in the boat that nothing other than a "play it by ear at the time" route would seem to work. You just have to know so much more about each person than you possibly could given the information we have.

 

Of course, if I really was in such a life and death situation (and I never have been) then it is entirely possible that all logical thinking process would jump overboard, and I would just attempt to throw everyone else off in a mad panic!

 

A very poor answer on my part, but since there isnt a good one, I dont feel too bad about it

[thaddeus]

It was hard for me to tear the ethics part out of the thought experiment. I'm a possibility thinker and I hate to narrowly go through just one option (i.e. someone has to go). For example, at work, I've led brainstorming discussions and know how the power of group discussion can yield some very interesting solutions. So I would make saving everyone the goal and figure out creative ways to do it. It would be terrible to kill someone off and then figure out if we all sat a different way we could have saved that person. So for me, I'm all for creative ways to solve the puzzle. If I was ever a prisoner or taken hostage, I believe I'm the person that escapes or kills the hostage takers.

It's hard for me to think of a situation where I have no choice but to pick someone to die. Then in that case I'd probably choose the person that would allow the most to continue living. For example, if we are all hanging on a rope, I'd have to pick the one person that is going to make everyone else die faster. I used to joke at work about this guy that was a pure 'taker' in that he didn't have much to offer, but was always taking. He ate the most, drank the most, and did the least amount of work. I always said if we were stuck somewhere, he'd be the first person I killed off. I'm not sure I could bank on future possibilities of people, meaning their potentials because you have no way of knowing if that person will actually come through with their abilities. And I don't believe it's up to me and my own filters to judge who is worthy. I would just make calculated decisions to make sure the most can continue to live.

T

[Leo]

How about using Taoist Wu Wei? Since you know you are necessary and don't have to worry about being thrown off, you can sit back and let the situation resolve itself. If a lifeboat holds 7 adults, and there are three kids making up the rest of the 10, they can sit on laps and totally resolve the situation. If everyone is adults, the biggest, stongest men, and therefore the ones most likely to help survival, will boot the smaller ones off. And anyone who's spent more than five minutes in a bar knows those same men will boot off the smaller men in favor of any women (especially young attractive ones). Anyone who was in danger of being thrown off could plead their case to the group, and may succeed in getting the big guys to go after the next smaller one (as a very small man I'd be really glad that I was the one with the navigation knowledge!) And even if that wasn't a contrived solution, that's probably the way it would go down anyway.

[sean]

Affenbrot, interesting about that nature of the question bringing in the reptilian brain and disrupting it's potential. I think if we are in a meditative state when we contemplate it though, it can help us discern and clarify our values. Then maybe when we are in tough situations in life, hopefully not ever a bad as this, we can respond with less primitiveness because we have spent this time bringing higher orders of our self to bear on how we would like to behave.

 

It seems like a lot of us are having trouble not trying to save everyone, which speaks highly of our idealism and creativity and also avoids the point of the question IMO.

 

A variation that may help would be that you are in a solid steel room with 9 people. A voice comes on over an intercom and says you must choose 3 people to die or you will all be killed.

 

Sean

[Pietro]

May I add an interesting twist?

 

Not only you are to say who, and why, but in your 'why' answer you are NOT to refer to any authority, anybody external, anything that has been written, said, passed down.

 

This is how the excercise was taught to me. The answer must come from the inside. Only.

 

Nothing from the TTC, the sutra, the discourses, Buddha, Brahama, the pope, the people, Jesus, Bruce, Mantak, Michael, Ron, my little friend, my cousin who have been in this situation, the Crow nation, my daddy, mommy and anything.

 

Can you all reread your answers and in case rephrase them.

 

In my case just ignore the little story at the end, it is really an addition, and unnecessary. But I am ready to answer the why question on any of my choises.

[thaddeus]

Affenbrot, interesting about that nature of the question bringing in the reptilian brain and disrupting it's potential. I think if we are in a meditative state when we contemplate it though, it can help us discern and clarify our values. Then maybe when we are in tough situations in life, hopefully not ever a bad as this, we can respond with less primitiveness because we have spent this time bringing higher orders of our self to bear on how we would like to behave.

 

It seems like a lot of us are having trouble not trying to save everyone, which speaks highly of our idealism and creativity and also avoids the point of the question IMO.

 

A variation that may help would be that you are in a solid steel room with 9 people. A voice comes on over an intercom and says you must choose 3 people to die or you will all be killed.

 

Sean

 

This reminds me of those hypothetical 'if you had to choose to sleep with x or y who would you sleep with' and then dealing with all the objections finally by saying ' OK if g-d came down from heaven and said you HAD to choose, who would you choose'... lol.

Not to be difficult, but how 'bout if we put some context to this. Who are the 9 people, because we'll all come up with our own scenarios that fit our ideas. For example, i could say there are 3 kids, 3 moms, and 3 terrorists, so I'll pick the terrorists...

let's make this more difficult..

who wants to name the cast of characters?

T

[Lozen]

Lozen, what about another layer of complexity. What if there is a brilliant political activist on board that is making profound, utopian changes to an entire nation's political structure, helping finally relieve racism, opression, and injustice in, let's say, an area that's been war torn for hundred of years. Would you throw over a brain damaged child for a women like this? Would you throw over a virulently anti-semitic, pregnant wife of a KKK leader for a man like this?

 

I think I would save the brain damaged child, yeah. And the pregnant nazi. I just couldn't hurt the child. I would think the brilliant utopian activist would sacrifice herself for the group, honestly.

 

ARGH but this sucks.

[Lozen]

Wait I changed my mind. What if I were to trade my life for the utopian activist guy/gal?

Edited April 4, 2006 by Lozen

[thelerner]

Like Afrenbot said, and others echoed, find a third way, whether its taking turns staying overboard, putting supplies overboard (but tied up), dumping out possible excesses(ripping up seats), etc. Real life often offers solutions.

 

That said, as captain, you should've gone down w/ the ship, thus the captain is a goner (but noble). Two, You'd want to discuss the question. No sense throwing 2 people over board and having a third, say Max, say he'd of been happy to go.

 

Lets see, no one else volunteers, we're taking on water and obviously all going to die. Like Lozen I tend to be woman and children first. I'd have the men pick straws. If a woman wanted in to the lottery, great more power to her, but I wouldn't allow a willing child in.

 

Michael

Edited April 4, 2006 by thelerner

[三江源]

.

Edited April 18, 2015 by 三江源

[Smile]

Not only you are to say who, and why, but in your 'why' answer you are NOT to refer to any authority, anybody external, anything that has been written, said, passed down.

 

This is how the excercise was taught to me. The answer must come from the inside. Only.

 

Nothing from the TTC, the sutra, the discourses, Buddha, Brahama, the pope, the people, Jesus, Bruce, Mantak, Michael, Ron, my little friend, my cousin who have been in this situation, the Crow nation, my daddy, mommy and anything.

 

Can you all reread your answers and in case rephrase them.

 

Ok then.

 

I would kill all the males and ugly chicks and use their meat for the rest to survive.

[thelerner]

My rephrasal:

 

 

Rock the life boat,

 

tip it over,

 

we all drown.

 

 

Leave discussions and moralizing

for the next world

 

 

Michael

[Lozen]

Ok then.

 

I would kill all the males and ugly chicks and use their meat for the rest to survive.

 

I thought you didn't eat meat.

 

[Smile]

I thought you didn't eat meat.

 

Who said I will eat it? Breast milk is good enough...

[Pietro]

Who said I will eat it? Breast milk is good enough...

So that's your famous raw diet!

[neimad]

haven't read all the responses, just too many for me to go through right now.

 

 

but here's what i think i would do, circumstance obviously would always dictate otherwise.

 

people aren't going to believe me when i say this, but as the captain of the ship i would be the first to volunteer to stay behind.

 

i'd then put it out that this boat can only carry 7 people safely, who else will do the right thing so that some people can at least survive?

 

yes, i truly would offer to stay behind.

[sean]

yes, i truly would offer to stay behind.

One of the conditions is that you are the only one that can possibly navigate the boat to safety, so you must stay and you have to make a choice ... and quickly! water is spilling into the boat and sinking it, and sharks are swarming everywhere!

[Lozen]

One of the conditions is that you are the only one that can possibly navigate the boat to safety, so you must stay and you have to make a choice ... and quickly! water is spilling into the boat and sinking it, and sharks are swarming everywhere!

 

I would definitely save Sean, even though he's not a child or a pregnant woman. I would have to find a way.

[thelerner]

Hmmnn, I might 'lose' Sean. He's led a good life, etc. His philosophical nature would probably make it easier to push him out w/out too many hard feelings. I think we determined Max would volunteer, so bon voyagie to him, that's 2 so far.

 

All we need is one more .. hmmmnnn

 

 

Michael

[neimad]

One of the conditions is that you are the only one that can possibly navigate the boat to safety, so you must stay and you have to make a choice ... and quickly! water is spilling into the boat and sinking it, and sharks are swarming everywhere!

 

 

well that makes it a little different. i have to stay or else we all die.

 

i guess i'd throw it open first and let anyone offer themselves. explain the reasons.

 

and then well if noone volunteered i'd set up one of those reality tv-show type competitions to decide who gets cut hahaha.....

 

no, this is a hard question. what right do i have to decide who gets to live and who gets to die? regardless of who they are as a person, a saint or a mean bastard, we are all equal, we are all infinite consciousness and we are all just having a different expression of existance based on ourselves and our external circumstances (one and the same really).

if noone volunteers, let people vote.

 

but in reality the situation would quickly escalate out of control with everyone being hysterical. if that's the situation...... listen to my intuition, push 3 people off quickly and bail.