Questions for Goldisheavy

[skyisthelimit]

Tyler, so basically you seem to question the idea that there is a personal God, a God as a cosmis person with a free will, right? You think that Tao is like an impersonal God, without free will, and more automatic, right? Do I understand correctly?

 

My question to you is this: if God is like a force of nature that exists and permeates everything and is automatic and subject to some kind of universal laws, why call it "God"? Why even think about it? And also, how will this type of God be any different from the Western conception of substance-matter-energy, which fits that description perfectly ("something that exists as a force of nature, objectively, independently, subject to laws, etc.").

 

In this case it seems to me that God simply becomes substance. When I talk to physicalist atheists I like to tell them that substance is their God. They tend to get offended because they don't understand that substance must be taken on faith, just like God. All we have are our experiences. Nothing in our experience suggest an objective substance. If we hold to a materialist mindset, we simply have faith that there is substance "out there."

 

In any case, I enthusiastically mirror your concerns about the concept of a personal God. I just don't think you go far enough. I think it's a good idea to ignore the concept of God, or even Tao, altogether, and to simply focus on why you needed that concept to begin with. Chances are you needed the idea of God or Tao to solve some kind of problem in your life. I would ask you to revisit that problem. To recall the original problem. Consider that problem one more time, and ask yourself if there is any other approach to that problem that simply does not require reference to God or Tao. That's all.

 

By all means I am not telling you how to be or what to believe. If you think that the idea of Tao is simply fun, then good for you and more power to you. If my assumption that you have a real concern that you're trying to solve with the idea of an impersonal God is wrong, and if you are investigating the notion of an impersonal God purely out of idle curiosity, please forgive me and carry on.

 

Chuang Tzu mused something like this, paraphrased, "When you catch a rabbit, you get rid of the rabbit snare and keep the rabbit. Words are like snares, and ideas are like rabbits. Once you get the right idea, forget the words. Where can I find a man like that to have a few words with?"

 

So once you get what the word Tao is trying to tell you, you can then forget about the word. You don't need to refer to Tao. If you continue to refer to Tao, you turn Tao into some kind of substance and that's not what Tao is. You can't study the Tao like you can study a substance. So once you understand what Tao means, you don't need to talk about it too much.

 

 

Goldisheavy,

 

I have been lurking on this forum for a while and decided to post today mainly to speak to you. I have found your non-conventional approach to things, even if deliberate at times, refreshing.

 

Here is my question. What did you practice to get to where you are now? Or to put it another way, what do you recommend as a spiritual practice for someone who would care to take your opinion?

 

- Energetic practices like Qigong, Kundalini etc.?

- Deities, Mantras, Mandalas like in Tibetan Buddhism?

- Zazen, Shikantaza, Vipassana, Mindfulness practices?

- Or simply an intellectual analysis - like Ramana's self-inquiry, study of the suttas etc.?

 

Or it does not matter?

[Dalan sa Kilat]

Very interesting point Goldisheavy... skyisthelimit is right... you seem well educated. You brout up a quote as to the reason why a great deal of enligtened ones rarely comes back. Just as God looks into us with his minds eye to see if we can figure it out... so true it goes for the enlightened once. Every now and then though... god throws us a bone... and so true it goes for the enlightened once...

 

Considering this is a discussion about God, I would like to put in my thought on the subject of God. I believe that when God being a powerful entity... creaty all things... he could not create something from nothing... so when he created everything he took pieces of himself and made everything... so technically... everything is made from him and contains him.

 

He also gave us two things... Free will (the things we can control) and fate (the things we cannot or in other words god's will)... when your will and fate's will are one and the same... the universe conspires and position itself for that very moment when all things are what and where they are supposed to be...

[Stigweard]

Very interesting point Goldisheavy... skyisthelimit is right... you seem well educated. You brout up a quote as to the reason why a great deal of enligtened ones rarely comes back. Just as God looks into us with his minds eye to see if we can figure it out... so true it goes for the enlightened once. Every now and then though... god throws us a bone... and so true it goes for the enlightened once...

 

Considering this is a discussion about God, I would like to put in my thought on the subject of God. I believe that when God being a powerful entity... creaty all things... he could not create something from nothing... so when he created everything he took pieces of himself and made everything... so technically... everything is made from him and contains him.

 

He also gave us two things... Free will (the things we can control) and fate (the things we cannot or in other words god's will)... when your will and fate's will are one and the same... the universe conspires and position itself for that very moment when all things are what and where they are supposed to be...

LOL so if you cant create something from nothing, where did God come from? Who created God?

 

[Seth Ananda]

LOL so if you cant create something from nothing, where did God come from? Who created God?

 

If God is outside time, questions of Begining's or endings to God are Meaningless.

Or maybe God created time and is not subject to it?

[goldisheavy]

Goldisheavy,

 

I have been lurking on this forum for a while and decided to post today mainly to speak to you. I have found your non-conventional approach to things, even if deliberate at times, refreshing.

 

Thank you for kind words.

 

Here is my question. What did you practice to get to where you are now? Or to put it another way, what do you recommend as a spiritual practice for someone who would care to take your opinion?

 

- Energetic practices like Qigong, Kundalini etc.?

- Deities, Mantras, Mandalas like in Tibetan Buddhism?

- Zazen, Shikantaza, Vipassana, Mindfulness practices?

- Or simply an intellectual analysis - like Ramana's self-inquiry, study of the suttas etc.?

 

Or it does not matter?

 

I am not categorically for or against most methods, in particular the ones you list. I don't want to limit imagination, which I believe is a good quality, and I don't like the idea of reducing variety. At the same time, as you can see, I do like to question things. I think that no matter what approach one takes, it should be maximally honest. And the ultimate judge of what is maximally honest is not going to be me. My questions are just tools that can help people to be more honest with themselves, but the result of that honesty is not necessarily what I personally think. It's up to each person to decide. And at the same time, whatever we all decide, I hope we can continue to collaborate and help each other, and yes, help keep each other honest.

 

That said here are my views on all the practices you list:

 

- Energetic practices like Qigong, Kundalini etc.?

 

I believe that for these particular practices one should either find a good teacher who practices these for a long time without any side-effects, and who, preferably, has helped many people help out of problems that may sometimes arise with these. Or one should have a strong base of wisdom that's been gained by following other practices first, such as basic meditation and contemplation. Once the person starts these practices, I believe what help people become enlightened is not so much the energy rising up some channels -- this is irrelevant to my mind. What helps people is that while you do these energy practices, there is a high likelihood of encountering strange phenomena. These strange phenomena will very likely challenge your ideas about reality. And it is this challenge that is helpful. In light of some of these challenging experiences, one may have to reconsider some of one's core beliefs. One may also need to become more attentive to what one believes. This increased attentiveness is a good thing. I also think that when properly done, these practices can make a person more healthy, and that's good too.

 

- Deities, Mantras, Mandalas like in Tibetan Buddhism?

 

These are also good, because if you seriously practice some of these, strong, vivid and strange experiences can arise that will challenge what you believe about reality, mind, yourself, the world and so on. Again, it's not so much the deities that are inherently good, but the way these experiences help one to gain a broader and less constrained mind. I believe these practices can effects as strong as the energy practices, and so, again, you should either have a good base of wisdom first, or you need an experienced guide to hold your hand if you want some safety. If you don't care about safety, then you don't need anything or anyone, just be responsible.

 

- Zazen, Shikantaza, Vipassana, Mindfulness practices?

 

I think these practices are the safest at the beginning and help one develop a good base of wisdom. At the same time, these practices have no upper limit either. So if you take one of these up, it goes all the way (turtles going all the way down, so to speak). But as with any spiritual practice, these methods can also sometimes produce strange experiences.

 

- Or simply an intellectual analysis - like Ramana's self-inquiry, study of the suttas etc.?

 

This is necessary no matter what practice you choose. Why is that? Because the manner in which we approach life, and the manner in which we approach our spiritual practice, completely depend on what you believe about life, about yourself, about the world, about the practice and so on. All these beliefs have to be subjected to the fire of reason to keep them honest. This is especially true if you want to meditate in the Buddhist tradition. In the Buddhist tradition, meditation without The View is like a headless chicken running around, it is of no use, and can even lead to a development of a delusion. Honesty is what prevents delusions. And honesty cannot exist in the absence of some kind of reflection and contemplation.

 

One way to describe a spiritual person, is a person with exceptional honesty. It is honesty that eventually unlocks magic power. And by honesty I mean deep inner honesty and not something like telling everyone around you what you did last Friday or something like that.

 

Does it matter? -- You decide. Currently I think it does matter. But I am not completely committed to that position. Maybe next year I will think it doesn't matter. But that's just me. You still have to decide this for yourself.

 

What did I practice?

 

When I was 20, I started with questioning things and just doing some general research.

 

Later on, roughly between 21-23, I was practicing a number of different things. The practice that resulted in the strongest and flashiest experiences was surrender. I would practice surrender, maybe to the universe, maybe to God. I was very much in love with Sufi poet Rumi and I had friends who encouraged me to die before I die. I took this very seriously. I was determined to die. And I've had a number of experiences where I died in one way or another. One time all of my conceptions, even the deepest ones, melted completely and I was completely dissolved into an experience that was at once the most peaceful I've ever experienced, boundless, limitless, and Godly. Right then and there I saw how the world was uncreated and right then I understood the role of primordial mind in creating the world. My idea that the world existed as some objective substance was either completely shattered at that time, or it received a grievous mortal wound at the very least. Then I saw the world slowly re-emerge, and out of undefined pregnant potentiality, things started to take shape and the world reappeared, very slowly and gently and peacefully. I found myself laying on the floor, meditating in my room when that happened, just as I was prior to that experience. There is more to it, but this description will have to suffice for now.

 

I am roughly 35 years old now (don't want to give out my exact age).

 

I've experienced many things. Some things were just very strange. Other things were absolutely terrifying. I also had strange experiences out in the world, on the street. I did strange things and strange things happened to me. This was when I was very very open to everything.

 

Then I realized that my world is becoming completely unglued and that there was no limit. In other words, all that strangeness had no upper limit, and then I realized I wasn't sure how far I wanted to go that way. I also read some Sufi saying that there is drunken Sufism and there is sober Sufism and that struck a chord with me. I realized I was definitely drunk and I wanted to sober up, but not forever! I will become drunk again later on.

 

At that time I was also studying Advaita Vedanta too, and many other things. But as I was sobering up, my attention turned to Buddhism. I have intentionally closed my heart to strangeness and immediately things became less strange. Strange things were happening more rarely and my life was once again becoming more normal and as you'd expect it to me. My main practice was a combination of mindfulness and contemplation, and it is the same till this day.

 

I realized one important thing. The world I find myself in, as bad as it sometimes seems, and as full of suffering as I sometimes find it, is really my own divine intention from the highest point. In other words, I am not here by accident. I am here because of my own intent from the very center of my being. I like humanity. I like this planet. I like myself as a human. I realized all this stuff is not an accident. At the same time, I am also tired of being a human and I am tired of this world. But I realized that this world is like my baby, and by this world I don't mean some physical piece of rock, I mean everything I believe to be true, especially my core beliefs about reality. So giving it up won't be easy. I have to be absolutely certain that I no longer volunteer to be confined here. And how can I be so certain about it, when only a cosmic minute ago it was my baby? It's not easy to be certain about it at all.

 

So then I thought I need to take it easy and slow. I need to be certain about this. Do I really mean to dissolve everything I believe to be true? Am I ready to accept the consequences? At that point I had a taste of the consequences and of what is possible when I allow more limitlessness into my life and I had to be sure I want it.

 

Just to give you a small taste of what I was grappling with, in one of my meditations I was approaching death. As I was about to die, I had a vision of my father. Immediately I thought, "What will my father think of this? (me deciding to die?)" I felt disapproval and immediately I couldn't die anymore. When I came out of meditation I was furious. How dare my father stop me? Then I realized it was my own belief about my father! It is what I deeply believe my father is like. This didn't make things much easier anyway. Even though I knew it was "just" a belief, it was not some superficial one. It was so deeply buried, that it might as well be my father shaking his head with disapproval at my intention to die. Around that time I was really beginning to understand the weight that all my unconscious beliefs had. Imagine how surprised I was? I was very surprised! This means that unbeknownst to myself I had part of my being that were sabotaging my efforts! I didn't know this at all. Now I was becoming aware of how much strange stuff was buried in my being. All that cruft has to be excavated, but it won't be easy or quick.

 

Since my intention was very serious, the challenges that arose to my practice were equally serious and then I was left to reflect. I know what my power is. I have quite a bit of wisdom now. But I still don't know what I want exactly, and if I want real change, I can't be half-hearted about it -- that's the spiritual law. If half my being intends one thing and another half intends the opposite, either nothing will happen, or I will suffer from a terrible internal tare that will tare right at the core of my being. I don't want that.

 

So from then on I spend most of my time in contemplation and some in meditation. I believe I will once again return to the original wildness, and when I do, I won't have this much baggage, I will be ready to go completely. Without any anchors attached to the old ways, I will sail off.

 

I don't know if this answers your questions, but you can't say I haven't tried.

Edited June 4, 2010 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Considering this is a discussion about God, I would like to put in my thought on the subject of God. I believe that when God being a powerful entity... creaty all things... he could not create something from nothing... so when he created everything he took pieces of himself and made everything... so technically... everything is made from him and contains him.

 

These days I find the idea of God to be more harmful than helpful. However, if you're a responsible human being, you can benefit from a very careful handling of that idea. And if you are sincere in your belief, you are right -- This whole world is nothing other than God's vision in God's mind. There is simply nothing else to make the world from. And it arises due to God's intent. What this means is that God is right at the core of your being. God is more you than you are yourself. This is hard to understand.

 

He also gave us two things... Free will (the things we can control) and fate (the things we cannot or in other words god's will)... when your will and fate's will are one and the same... the universe conspires and position itself for that very moment when all things are what and where they are supposed to be...

 

I think that's an OK view to have, but it is limiting if you are perpetually stuck to only this way of looking at things, and cannot envision any other possibility.

 

In Kaballistic approach, two spiritual objects become closer together when they share more and more common traits. One of the traits of God is infinite imagination and the ability to assume infinite points of view. If you wish to become closer to God, then train your mind to gain access to infinite imagination and train yourself to be able to accept and tolerate infinite points of view.

Edited June 4, 2010 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

LOL so if you cant create something from nothing, where did God come from? Who created God?

 

 

God is not a thing. It's not something. But it's hard to understand how can a word refer to something that isn't something. This is exactly why I think the idea of God hurts more than helps. This is why I find something like Buddhism or Taoism to be wiser than theistic religions.

Edited June 4, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

I realized one important thing. The world I find myself in, as bad as it sometimes seems, and as full of suffering as I sometimes find it, is really my own divine intention from the highest point. In other words, I am not here by accident. I am here because of my own intent from the very center of my being. I like humanity. I like this planet. I like myself as a human. I realized all this stuff is not an accident. At the same time, I am also tired of being a human and I am tired of this world. But I realized that this world is like my baby, and by this world I don't mean some physical piece of rock, I mean everything I believe to be true, especially my core beliefs about reality. So giving it up won't be easy. I have to be absolutely certain that I no longer volunteer to be confined here. And how can I be so certain about it, when only a cosmic minute ago it was my baby? It's not easy to be certain about it at all.

 

 

Giving it up, that certainly is the difficult part. I have seen in many ways how human life and all it contains, is geared towards side-tracking realization. This effect seems to have grown exponentially in relation to societies so called development. The choice to be here at this 'time' can be viewed as a 'one way or the other' kind of thing(I'm struggling to find the exact term I'm looking for). Whereas there is possibly more information freely available as to 'spiritual development' than perhaps at any other time in history; there is also a world filled with a huge amount of distraction opposing that development. Looks like the last chance saloon to me

,if there is such a thing.

 

 

 

 

Just to give you a small taste of what I was grappling with, in one of my meditations I was approaching death. As I was about to die, I had a vision of my father. Immediately I thought, "What will my father think of this? (me deciding to die?)" I felt disapproval and immediately I couldn't die anymore. When I came out of meditation I was furious. How dare my father stop me? Then I realized it was my own belief about my father! It is what I deeply believe my father is like. This didn't make things much easier anyway. Even though I knew it was "just" a belief, it was not some superficial one. It was so deeply buried, that it might as well be my father shaking his head with disapproval at my intention to die. Around that time I was really beginning to understand the weight that all my unconscious beliefs had. Imagine how surprised I was? I was very surprised! This means that unbeknownst to myself I had part of my being that were sabotaging my efforts! I didn't know this at all. Now I was becoming aware of how much strange stuff was buried in my being. All that cruft has to be excavated, but it won't be easy or quick.

 

 

Beliefs about important people in our lives do seem to take on a life of their own, which then has a direct effect on our own decisions, even when we don't know it. If a person can get past/through/out of the parental conditioning they are, at least, well on their way.

 

 

Your post was very stimulating Goldisheavy. I enjoyed reading it.

[Kameel]

GIH- Very honest, revealing post. Just one question. Why "roughly 35"? How would saying "I'm 33", change your perception of reality? How would saying "I'm 33," change the readers perception of your perception of reality? Why reveal so much, and yet not own that truth? Oh wait that's more than one question.

Cheers.

[Sunya]

Thank you Gold for writing that... excellent. I very much enjoyed it and was indeed inspired to die.

[Starjumper]

Goldisheavy, I appreciate your clarifications as to your current position.

[Marblehead]

LOL so if you cant create something from nothing, where did God come from? Who created God?

 

 

 

God has always existed. You know that.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Edit to add:

 

Excellent responses Gold! I enjoyed the reading.

 

Peace & Love!

Edited June 4, 2010 by Marblehead

[dwai]

Tyler, so basically you seem to question the idea that there is a personal God, a God as a cosmis person with a free will, right? You think that Tao is like an impersonal God, without free will, and more automatic, right? Do I understand correctly?

 

My question to you is this: if God is like a force of nature that exists and permeates everything and is automatic and subject to some kind of universal laws, why call it "God"? Why even think about it? And also, how will this type of God be any different from the Western conception of substance-matter-energy, which fits that description perfectly ("something that exists as a force of nature, objectively, independently, subject to laws, etc.").

That God that can be named is not the real God...

The God that we see and call and describe and define is a reflection of the "real" God.

That substance-matter-energy is not the "real" God. Substance, matter, energy are all superimpositions upon the real God. And the "real" God is your True Self. And the way to the Kingdom of the "real" God is through you.

 

In this case it seems to me that God simply becomes substance. When I talk to physicalist atheists I like to tell them that substance is their God. They tend to get offended because they don't understand that substance must be taken on faith, just like God. All we have are our experiences. Nothing in our experience suggest an objective substance. If we hold to a materialist mindset, we simply have faith that there is substance "out there."

 

In any case, I enthusiastically mirror your concerns about the concept of a personal God. I just don't think you go far enough. I think it's a good idea to ignore the concept of God, or even Tao, altogether, and to simply focus on why you needed that concept to begin with. Chances are you needed the idea of God or Tao to solve some kind of problem in your life. I would ask you to revisit that problem. To recall the original problem. Consider that problem one more time, and ask yourself if there is any other approach to that problem that simply does not require reference to God or Tao. That's all.

You need that "God" concept because you are searching for your Self. That is the source of any quest and everything else is a pit-stop on the way.

 

By all means I am not telling you how to be or what to believe. If you think that the idea of Tao is simply fun, then good for you and more power to you. If my assumption that you have a real concern that you're trying to solve with the idea of an impersonal God is wrong, and if you are investigating the notion of an impersonal God purely out of idle curiosity, please forgive me and carry on.

 

Chuang Tzu mused something like this, paraphrased, "When you catch a rabbit, you get rid of the rabbit snare and keep the rabbit. Words are like snares, and ideas are like rabbits. Once you get the right idea, forget the words. Where can I find a man like that to have a few words with?"

 

So once you get what the word Tao is trying to tell you, you can then forget about the word. You don't need to refer to Tao. If you continue to refer to Tao, you turn Tao into some kind of substance and that's not what Tao is. You can't study the Tao like you can study a substance. So once you understand what Tao means, you don't need to talk about it too much.

 

Well said. But your approach makes me raise my eyebrow as well...Nihilism is not the answer. And you cannot understand Tao unless you do two things --

1) experience Tao

2) understand what Tao is at a non-intellectual, non-rational level -- pure Intuitive intelligence...no deliberation (Wei Wu Wei)