potential Buddhist "immortality"

[3bob]

Maha-parinibbana Sutta: Last Days of the Buddha

Translated from the Pali by Sister Vajira & Francis Story

 

(an excerpt)

 

"The Blessed One's Prompting

 

1. Then the Blessed One, getting ready in the forenoon, took bowl and robe and went into Vesali for alms. After the alms round and meal, on his return, he spoke to the Venerable Ananda, saying: "Take up a mat, Ananda, and let us spend the day at the Capala shrine."

 

"So be it, Lord." And the Venerable Ananda took up a mat and followed behind the Blessed One, step by step.

 

2. And the Blessed One went to the Capala shrine and sat down on the seat prepared for him. And when the Venerable Ananda had seated himself at one side after he had respectfully saluted the Blessed One, the Lord said to him: "Pleasant, Ananda, is Vesali; pleasant are the shrines of Udena, Gotamaka, Sattambaka, Bahuputta, Sarandada, and Capala."

 

3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it."

 

4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!"

 

5. And when for a second and a third time the Blessed One repeated his words, the Venerable Ananda remained silent.

 

6. Then the Blessed One said to the Venerable Ananda: "Go now, Ananda, and do as seems fit to you."

 

-------------------------

 

If one accepts verse 3 above then it points beyond a natural or normal human life span of around 70-100+ years, thus the Buddha did have what could be called super-natural ability or that which was very far beyond normal human ability! Btw, I don't know why some Buddhists seem to go out of their way to discount or even deny such powers which an enlightened one could use with wisdom and compassion? Anyway, to me this part of the sutta describes or points to an immortality that could last and or be extended for a very, very long time, namely what is referred to as a "world period" which I take to mean most of a kalpa:

 

"Time in Buddhist cosmology is measured in kalpas. Originally, a kalpa was considered to be 4,320,000 years. Buddhist scholars expanded it with a metaphor: rub a one-mile cube of rock once every hundred years with a piece of silk, until the rock is worn away -- and a kalpa still hasn’t passed! During a kalpa, the world comes into being, exists, is destroyed, and a period of emptiness ensues. Then it all starts again". (exact years for such periods are debateable but most would agree they are very long)

 

To me such immortality is possible, although the need and reason would have to be very compelling - thus not something for every Being. Further, with the Buddha completing his task of establishing the Buddhist Dharma the need for him to stay in form of some kind was no longer a major concern; and His REST was well earned!!

Edited June 5, 2010 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

To me such immortality is possible, although the need and reason would have to be very compelling - thus not something for every Being. Further, with the Buddha completing his task of establishing the Buddhist Dharma the need for him to stay in form of some kind was no longer a major concern; and His REST was well earned!!

 

Funny that this is the same response I hear almost every time when the concept of immortality is discussed.

 

The question being: If he/she was capable of immortality why didn't they choose immortality instead of dying just like everyone else?

 

The answer being: Because their job here on earth was complete.

 

Now I ask: If their goal was peace on earth amongst all humankind and kindness to all other creatures of the creation how can one possibly consider the job finished?

 

It is my personal opinion that things have gotten a bit worse over time and all who have a goal of peace on earth have totally failed in the efforts.

 

Peace & Love!

[Procurator]

 

 

The question being: If he/she was capable of immortality why didn't they choose immortality instead of dying just like everyone else?

 

The answer being: Because their job here on earth was complete.

 

Now I ask: If their goal was peace on earth amongst all humankind and kindness to all other creatures of the creation how can one possibly consider the job finished?

 

 

 

 

that is a question and answer that is false premised and falsely deduced correspondingly.

[3bob]

Funny that this is the same response I hear almost every time when the concept of immortality is discussed.

 

The question being: If he/she was capable of immortality why didn't they choose immortality instead of dying just like everyone else?

 

The answer being: Because their job here on earth was complete.

 

Now I ask: If their goal was peace on earth amongst all humankind and kindness to all other creatures of the creation how can one possibly consider the job finished?

 

It is my personal opinion that things have gotten a bit worse over time and all who have a goal of peace on earth have totally failed in the efforts.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Hi MH,

That reply brings to mind for me another idea, namely that of various peoples throughout history wanting a leader to arise and kill all of thier enemies for them so that they will then be at peace; but peace will never come based on such violence for another "enemy" will pop up again sooner or later. Further, if "spiritual" teachers employ violence to end violence they have failed, thus they only succeed when demonstrating good will and peace from their own selves towards others, something which can never be forced on anyone. The choice is ours to accept or reject such examples. The soul of the earth is at peace, or is at Tao (although wounded) - while those that go against Tao can not last.

Edited June 5, 2010 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

that is a question and answer that is false premised and falsely deduced correspondingly.

 

But still, it is valid from a skeptical perspective, IMO.

[Marblehead]

Hi MH,

That reply brings to mind for me another idea, namely that of various peoples throughout history wanting a leader to arise and kill all of thier enemies for them so that they will then be at peace; but peace will never come based on such violence for another "enemy" will pop up again sooner or later. Further, if "spiritual" teachers employ violence to end violence they have failed, thus they only succeed when demonstrating good will and peace from their own selves towards others, something which can never be forced on anyone. The choice and is ours to accept or reject such examples. The soul of the earth is at peace, or is at Tao (although wounded) - while those that go against Tao can not last.

 

Excellent reply 3bob!

 

Yes, and excellent question: How can peace be achieved when peace is attained through violence? Surely there will be ill feelings remaining.

 

A perfect example is some of the discussions on this and I would imagine on nearly all internet forums: How can agreement be had when the discussion resorts to violent words and personal insults?

 

But, back to topic, this is a question taht has always been on my mind regarding all the supposed 'saviors' of humankind who supposedly have supernatural powers. Why have all attempts ended in failure? It seems to me that if one had supernatural powers they would use those powers to instill the concepts of 'peace & love' in all the hearts and minds of the peoples of the world.

 

Instead they just die like everyone else and most don't even leave a trace that they were ever here.

 

Peace & Love!

[johndoe2012]

Excellent reply 3bob!

 

Yes, and excellent question: How can peace be achieved when peace is attained through violence?

It cannot. That's why I see eg. the mission in Afghanistan doomed to fail.

 

A perfect example is some of the discussions on this and I would imagine on nearly all internet forums: How can agreement be had when the discussion resorts to violent words and personal insults?

 

Lack of personal interaction is the main issue in internet forum. It is too easy to be non-compassionate against someone on the internet.

 

But, back to topic, this is a question taht has always been on my mind regarding all the supposed 'saviors' of humankind who supposedly have supernatural powers. Why have all attempts ended in failure? It seems to me that if one had supernatural powers they would use those powers to instill the concepts of 'peace & love' in all the hearts and minds of the peoples of the world.

 

Instead they just die like everyone else and most don't even leave a trace that they were ever here.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Well, Lao-Tzu and Buddha left some traces for humanity that we are still working on to integrate in our lives.

 

The question whether we have more peace now than a hundred or thousand years ago is difficult to say.

 

In the end it makes it even more important to cultivate oneself.

[3bob]

Excellent reply 3bob!

 

Yes, and excellent question: How can peace be achieved when peace is attained through violence? Surely there will be ill feelings remaining.

 

A perfect example is some of the discussions on this and I would imagine on nearly all internet forums: How can agreement be had when the discussion resorts to violent words and personal insults?

 

But, back to topic, this is a question taht has always been on my mind regarding all the supposed 'saviors' of humankind who supposedly have supernatural powers. Why have all attempts ended in failure? It seems to me that if one had supernatural powers they would use those powers to instill the concepts of 'peace & love' in all the hearts and minds of the peoples of the world.

 

Instead they just die like everyone else and most don't even leave a trace that they were ever here.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Why didn't the Buddha kill Mara? And if he had what would have been the result?

Btw, "they" don't just die like many do.

 

Om

[Vajrahridaya]

Btw, I don't know why some Buddhists seem to go out of their way to discount or even deny such powers which an enlightened one could use with wisdom and compassion?

 

Most Buddhists do not discount super-normal abilities. Just some do out of lack of experience and they are just unable to accept an interpretation or experience beyond their own limitations.

 

Also, in Dzogchen, turning your body into the light radiance's of the elements is considered making yourself immortal, even though it makes it so that most people unless they are highly developed, unable to see you. This level of realization is called, Jalus.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Now I ask: If their goal was peace on earth amongst all humankind and kindness to all other creatures of the creation how can one possibly consider the job finished?

 

It is my personal opinion that things have gotten a bit worse over time and all who have a goal of peace on earth have totally failed in the efforts.

 

Peace & Love!

 

The goal of the Buddha was not peace on earth. His goal was merely to disseminate the teachings of the Buddha Dharma in a way that could be carried on by other realized beings who became realized through his teachings while he was alive and that they would pass it on, and then other would do so as well. I don't think he thought peace on Earth was completely possible due to the amount of friction on this dimension of existence. But, he did feel that many beings could awaken to inner peace through his teachings while being on Earth. This has happened, thus he did meet his goal, while he was alive and after.

[Marblehead]

Btw, "they" don't just die like many do.

 

Om

 

Hehehe. Valid perspective for a believer.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

The goal of the Buddha was not peace on earth. His goal was merely to disseminate the teachings of the Buddha Dharma in a way that could be carried on by other realized beings who became realized through his teachings while he was alive and that they would pass it on, and then other would do so as well. I don't think he thought peace on Earth was completely possible due to the amount of friction on this dimension of existence. But, he did feel that many beings could awaken to inner peace through his teachings while being on Earth. This has happened, thus he did meet his goal, while he was alive and after.

 

 

Nice response and valid way of looking at it.

 

(Remember, I'm not trying to pick on any one religion or belief system. I am just presenting an alternative perspective for consideration.)

 

To the highlited sentence above, yes, even Lao Tzu spoke of a time in the past when the population of humans was fewer and there were enough resources available so that people did not have to fight over them. (TTC Chapter 80)

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

 

But, back to topic, this is a question taht has always been on my mind regarding all the supposed 'saviors' of humankind who supposedly have supernatural powers. Why have all attempts ended in failure? It seems to me that if one had supernatural powers they would use those powers to instill the concepts of 'peace & love' in all the hearts and minds of the peoples of the world.

Hey MH,

 

The concepts were handed down alright. There is no denying that those you label 'saviors' did their job, which is simply to point the way out of misery. In this regard they have succeeded.

 

Imo, one of the primary reasons why peace and love has not taken root, and dissatisfaction rampant, and with world on brink of self-destruction, is that the majority of people are unable to satisfactorily rise above such notions as peace and love and reconcile them as fundamental core values in their psyche. Thinking that they are disempowered, disillusioned and helpless, people go into denial, or worse allow their denial to dictate and justify their crazy words and actions, just like drowning men and women desperate to hang on to survival by grabbing and pushing down their drowning neighbors just to get a gasp of air. It becomes very much a vicious cycle, one that begins reverberating at first on an individual scale, then in the family, followed by the community, then country and NOW (i was going to say 'eventually' - but its not is it? Its so happening now) globally.

 

Its easy to say we want to see a global shift in consciousness - the biggy question is how is this to be achieved? Is it through learning about the hows and whys of immortality? Is this even relevant? This is the pertinent question i am putting forth here. Which is more compelling - that the Buddha hinted that men could live forever, or that He, through His passing away, taught His first and last lesson - Impermanence?

[Marblehead]

Well, Gee, CowTao. What can I say?

 

I do agree with what you have said.

 

Again, I'm not talking just of the Buddha but of all the inspiring people who have ever lived. Yes, many have hoped that they could make a difference; somehow make the world a better place to live; to somehow create a little more equality amongst men and women.

 

Yes, I have read the stories about these inspired people and I must admit, their goals were admirable.

 

So why has nothing changed? Today there are billions more people on the earth than there were when most of them lived and I think that the problems they were speaking to has only gotten worse, not better.

 

Indeed, many of them have achieved immortality in the since that their teachings are still remembered by many.

 

Now, I do understand that many Buddhists believe in reincarnation and this is a form of immortality. And, of course, the Christians with their Heaven have their own form of immortality.

 

Perhaps you are right in that the Buddha did accomplish his goal of teaching impermanence if that was his goal.

 

But why would we need, or even want, permanence; immortality? Isn't one life enough? Do any of us really want to stick around and watch humanity destroy itself?

 

Now sure, I want to live as long as I can. But then, my work is over. I no longer need compete with others to obtain my wants let alone my basic needs. There are so many people who are not even having their basic needs satisfied. Let's all die and make room for those who do not have enough. Let's educate the people so they stop having so many children. Let's educate the people so they make better use of the planet's resources. Let's do what we can while we are here and stop worrying about living forever.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Hehehe. Valid perspective for a believer.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Hi MH,

That is a valid point of yours depending on the cases. For me it's no longer hope or belief, which btw I feel have purpose, in my case I've seen and verified with my own eye. (with help)

 

Om

[3bob]

Most Buddhists do not discount super-normal abilities. Just some do out of lack of experience and they are just unable to accept an interpretation or experience beyond their own limitations.

 

Also, in Dzogchen, turning your body into the light radiance's of the elements is considered making yourself immortal, even though it makes it so that most people unless they are highly developed, unable to see you. This level of realization is called, Jalus.

 

Thank you for the information Vajrahridaya.

[3bob]

Hey MH,

 

The concepts were handed down alright. There is no denying that those you label 'saviors' did their job, which is simply to point the way out of misery. In this regard they have succeeded.

 

Imo, one of the primary reasons why peace and love has not taken root, and dissatisfaction rampant, and with world on brink of self-destruction, is that the majority of people are unable to satisfactorily rise above such notions as peace and love and reconcile them as fundamental core values in their psyche. Thinking that they are disempowered, disillusioned and helpless, people go into denial, or worse allow their denial to dictate and justify their crazy words and actions, just like drowning men and women desperate to hang on to survival by grabbing and pushing down their drowning neighbors just to get a gasp of air. It becomes very much a vicious cycle, one that begins reverberating at first on an individual scale, then in the family, followed by the community, then country and NOW (i was going to say 'eventually' - but its not is it? Its so happening now) globally.

 

Its easy to say we want to see a global shift in consciousness - the biggy question is how is this to be achieved? Is it through learning about the hows and whys of immortality? Is this even relevant? This is the pertinent question i am putting forth here. Which is more compelling - that the Buddha hinted that men could live forever, or that He, through His passing away, taught His first and last lesson - Impermanence?

 

Hi CowTao,

No offense meant and I may be getting away from the context of what you are saying (?) but I don't agree with your apparent implication or inference about impermanence being the most important lesson or point of the Buddhas teachings - compared to when one hears of the "end of sorrow" as quoted below:

 

"This condition I call neither arising nor passing away,

niether dying nor being born. It is without form and without change.

It is the eternal, which never originates and never passes away.

To find it is the end of sorrow".

 

Udana Sutta, the Buddha.

 

Good day

Edited June 6, 2010 by 3bob

[goldisheavy]

That's not exactly immortality. It's just a long lifespan.

[forestofclarity]

It's because saviors can't save us, they can only show us the way. The fact that the overwhelming majority of people choose not to do the work to save themselves, well, that's on each of us.

 

But, back to topic, this is a question taht has always been on my mind regarding all the supposed 'saviors' of humankind who supposedly have supernatural powers. Why have all attempts ended in failure? It seems to me that if one had supernatural powers they would use those powers to instill the concepts of 'peace & love' in all the hearts and minds of the peoples of the world.

[Sunya]

Mara is not a person.. Mara is the ego. How can the ego kill itself? It's impossible. The only way to fight Mara is to see through its illusion.

Edited June 6, 2010 by mikaelz

[3bob]

Mara is not a person.. Mara is the ego. How can the ego kill itself? It's impossible. The only way to fight Mara is to see through its illusion.

 

Ok, I'll take that as half of the description:

 

"Early Buddhism acknowledged both a literal and "psychological" interpretation of Mara. Mara is described both as an entity having a literal existence, just as the various deities of the Vedic pantheon are shown existing around the Buddha, and also is described as a primarily psychological force - a metaphor for various processes of doubt and temptation that obstruct religious practice".

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I'm really curious why immortality is such a compelling subject. I know it's one of the Daoist precepts(some say, others disagree)but nothing could be more dull in my view.

 

My point is only this: I'm fairly sure a majority of you here have experienced other states of mind, and experienced things which show you that there's way more up ahead. That your consciousness will be able to do and experience things that would make a physical body kind of redundant.

 

I'm not trying to say that life is dull and lets get the hell out of here as soon as possible, I simply think that immortality(in the physical sense)would be a huge sacrifice. It's not one I would ever want to make.

 

If you experience the 'other' things, thoughts of physical immortality would be enough to drive you insane, because you then have 'comparison'. I know maintaining a Daoist perspective might take the edge off, but still, that sounds like a nightmare to me.

 

Maybe if you could materialize for the weekend then rock off on Sunday night it would be OK. That could work.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Maybe if you could materialize for the weekend then rock off on Sunday night it would be OK. That could work.

[Marblehead]

Hi MH,

That is a valid point of yours depending on the cases. For me it's no longer hope or belief, which btw I feel have purpose, in my case I've seen and verified with my own eye. (with help)

 

Om

 

That's great! It's all good if it leads to good.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I have to edit this.

 

It's all Tao - beyond good and evil.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

It's because saviors can't save us, they can only show us the way. The fact that the overwhelming majority of people choose not to do the work to save themselves, well, that's on each of us.

 

I agree with you much more than I would ever be able to explain in words.

 

The responsibility for 'enlightenment' lies on each and every one of us individually. We must live our own journey.

 

Peace & Love!