Marblehead Posted June 6, 2010 Maybe if you could materialize for the weekend then rock off on Sunday night it would be OK. That could work. Funny. Interesting what you said though. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted June 6, 2010 (edited) Hi CowTao, No offense meant and I may be getting away from the context of what you are saying (?) but I don't agree with your apparent implication or inference about impermanence being the most important lesson or point of the Buddhas teachings - compared to when one hears of the "end of sorrow" as quoted below: "This condition I call neither arising nor passing away, niether dying nor being born. It is without form and without change. It is the eternal, which never originates and never passes away. To find it is the end of sorrow". Udana Sutta, the Buddha. Good day Hey Bob, No inference was made about impermanence being the most vital lesson - all that was said was that it was his first and last teaching. I think impermanence is woven into almost every single fabric of the Buddhist philosophy, so it is rather essential, wouldn't you agree? That and Interdependent Origination - which is what the quoted Sutta points to. I do not see the 'condition' (as stated in the Sutta) as a reference to the uncoiling of a self/person towards immortality. One who realizes I.O. then is, very literally, beyond birth and death, and to reach the point of pervasively abiding in this view is in truth to have realized that all things are impermanent. Once this (Impermanence) can be deducted logically to be the basis of both samsara and nirvana (where the practitioner actually arrives at the faultless view that all things are indeed without permanence), only then can one begin to rise above the notions of life and death as being a beginning and an ending of sorts. When this view is attained, where can mortality and its opposing state find room in such a mind? Sorrow truly has no place in a mind that is free of dualistic notions. Have a good day. Ananda ps - no offense taken! A refresher note on Interdependent Origination: http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2003/summer/dharma_dict_summer03.htm Edited June 6, 2010 by CowTao Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted June 6, 2010 (edited) Hey Bob, No inference was made about impermanence being the most vital lesson - all that was said was that it was his first and last teaching. I think impermanence is woven into almost every single fabric of the Buddhist philosophy, so it is rather essential, wouldn't you agree? That and Interdependent Origination - which is what the quoted Sutta points to. I do not see the 'condition' (as stated in the Sutta) as a reference to the uncoiling of a self/person towards immortality. One who realizes I.O. then is, very literally, beyond birth and death, and to reach the point of pervasively abiding in this view is in truth to have realized that all things are impermanent. Once this (Impermanence) can be deducted logically to be the basis of both samsara and nirvana (where the practitioner actually arrives at the faultless view that all things are indeed without permanence), only then can one begin to rise above the notions of life and death as being a beginning and an ending of sorts. When this view is attained, where can mortality and its opposing state find room in such a mind? Sorrow truly has no place in a mind that is free of dualistic notions. Have a good day. Ananda ps - no offense taken! A refresher note on Interdependent Origination: http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2003/summer/dharma_dict_summer03.htm I don't know... the way I take the Buddha's teachings and some of these terms is as follows: If the "condition" (that to me is more than just a viewpoint) which is pointed to in the Undana Sutta was impermanent and or linked to a dependence on interdependent origination then it to would be of and bound to suffering, but since it is not - it is free of the sufferings inherent to impermanent things and thus likewise is also free of any dependence on the interdependence of originations that is inherent to all dualistically arising and falling things. "It is the eternal" condition so deeply and profoundly simple and pure that all of this conceptual stuff can easily take one far from it, yet it remains. How that compares or not to what you are saying or implying CowTao I'm not sure? Nor am I really wired for these various Buddhist terms, so it's kind of like cross referencing meanings for me when trying to communicate along these lines. Good day P.S. I see a Being like Quan Yin as practicing a type of immortality so to speak, where she is still able to interact directly within the wheel to help Beings suffering there! Edited June 6, 2010 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted June 6, 2010 I don't know... "I don't know" is a good way to be... it means there is no 'stuckness'; in many ways, knowing puts an end to wonderment. Its a process of investigating set views that lends purpose to an individual's quest for higher realization. This is the beginning of the path. Towards the culmination of all the searching and investigating, the humor is that we arrive back to the exact place where we started. This does not in any way take away the significance of the preliminary need to investigate thru reflecting the doctrines against personal experience and doubts. Without these it would be difficult for insights to arise. The refresher that was linked ought to shed some light on the core doctrine of Buddhism and what it means when I.O. is actualized. Thank you for your kind interest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted June 6, 2010 That's great! It's all good if it leads to good. Peace & Love! I have to edit this. It's all Tao - beyond good and evil. Well said MH Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted June 6, 2010 (edited) I'm really curious why immortality is such a compelling subject. I know it's one of the Daoist precepts(some say, others disagree)but nothing could be more dull in my view. My point is only this: I'm fairly sure a majority of you here have experienced other states of mind, and experienced things which show you that there's way more up ahead. That your consciousness will be able to do and experience things that would make a physical body kind of redundant. I'm not trying to say that life is dull and lets get the hell out of here as soon as possible, I simply think that immortality(in the physical sense)would be a huge sacrifice. It's not one I would ever want to make. If you experience the 'other' things, thoughts of physical immortality would be enough to drive you insane, because you then have 'comparison'. I know maintaining a Daoist perspective might take the edge off, but still, that sounds like a nightmare to me. Maybe if you could materialize for the weekend then rock off on Sunday night it would be OK. That could work. It would be worse than just boring if not working for or with the Tao in some ways and trying to work only for oneself! Edited June 6, 2010 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted June 6, 2010 It's because saviors can't save us, they can only show us the way. The fact that the overwhelming majority of people choose not to do the work to save themselves, well, that's on each of us. Then again "saviors" can and do sometimes help in certain and special ways (without them ever making a fuss about it and being so trustworthy that one fully trusts them!) they can even compassionately suspend and or absorb some degree of karma of people or students in serious trouble who can then recover enough to get their feet back on the ground and do the work as mentioned. Btw, a Taoist reference to consider: "Hence, the Sage is always good at saving men" T.T.C. 27 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted June 6, 2010 Why do you say that? Then again "saviors" can and do sometimes help in certain and special ways (without them ever making a fuss about it and being so trustworthy that one fully trusts them!) they can even compassionately suspend and or absorb some degree of karma of people or students in serious trouble who can then recover enough to get their feet back on the ground and do the work as mentioned. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted June 6, 2010 Why do you say that? why not? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted June 6, 2010 I wouldn't say this because it tends to run counter to my experience, and also to the recommendations of sages I respect. However, rather than dismiss it out of hand, I was wondering if you had some experience in this area. why not? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted June 6, 2010 I wouldn't say this because it tends to run counter to my experience, and also to the recommendations of sages I respect. However, rather than dismiss it out of hand, I was wondering if you had some experience in this area. Yes. And there are a great number of accounts of people having some experience in this area. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted June 6, 2010 (edited) "I don't know" is a good way to be... it means there is no 'stuckness'; in many ways, knowing puts an end to wonderment. Its a process of investigating set views that lends purpose to an individual's quest for higher realization. This is the beginning of the path. Towards the culmination of all the searching and investigating, the humor is that we arrive back to the exact place where we started. This does not in any way take away the significance of the preliminary need to investigate thru reflecting the doctrines against personal experience and doubts. Without these it would be difficult for insights to arise. The refresher that was linked ought to shed some light on the core doctrine of Buddhism and what it means when I.O. is actualized. Thank you for your kind interest. "I don't know" is a good way to be... it means there is no 'stuckness'; in many ways, knowing puts an end to wonderment. Your sentence above is pointing towards a great deal that can't really ever be nailed down, and that is well... Edited June 7, 2010 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that Posted June 6, 2010 It would be worse than just boring if not working for or with the Tao in some ways and trying to work only for oneself! I agree with you totally, but right now, whether you know it or not.... you are working as a collective for the betterment of other consciousness. The possibility that you don't perceive(maybe you don't or do, I obviously can't say)it is not the point... you do. The connection is there. You may be more closely connected to others that you are not aware of at this time, but I can assure you(that may not be worth much mind you)that your developing consciousness is helping others as a collective. Frankly speaking the English language is somewhat useless at expressing the inner. But every single one of you working on yourself is helping another... somewhere, somehow. Give yourselves a pat on the back.... you may never know how you have helped another... but you do.... The man that wants immortality will never get it, as immortal desires are based on the fear of ego death, and fear of change, fear of change is contrary to Daoist teachings, it's a contradiction. If it's possible, it's not possible with the ego. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted June 8, 2010 (edited) I agree with you totally, but right now, whether you know it or not.... you are working as a collective for the betterment of other consciousness. The possibility that you don't perceive(maybe you don't or do, I obviously can't say)it is not the point... you do. The connection is there. You may be more closely connected to others that you are not aware of at this time, but I can assure you(that may not be worth much mind you)that your developing consciousness is helping others as a collective. Frankly speaking the English language is somewhat useless at expressing the inner. But every single one of you working on yourself is helping another... somewhere, somehow. Give yourselves a pat on the back.... you may never know how you have helped another... but you do.... The man that wants immortality will never get it, as immortal desires are based on the fear of ego death, and fear of change, fear of change is contrary to Daoist teachings, it's a contradiction. If it's possible, it's not possible with the ego. Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that, that was a fine way to say this and that! Edited June 8, 2010 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted June 8, 2010 I agree with you totally, ... Very nice post! Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted June 10, 2010 A commentary by Tripitaka Master Hsuan Hua on the 10 Types of Immortality that is cultivatable, excerpted from the Shurangama Sutra. Interesting... http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama7/shurangama7_21.asp Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
