Zhan zhuang

[JohnC]

Isn't zhan zhuang one of the most universal foundations of taoist practice?

 

And isn't it really powerful but really simple?

 

Why isn't this more talked about, better documented, or... anything. It's like this amazing thing that people overlook.

 

Is it it's own system? I've heard that it is a complete one, but extremely complex?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

Thanks,

John

Edited June 7, 2010 by JohnC

[Eric23]

It has been discussed here quite often. A search should bring up some very informative threads.

 

The thing about zhang zhuang is that it's so utterly simple at face value. You simply stand straight. Everything you need to know about the mechanics are readily available. Where it gets interesting is that while you are standing utterly still, everything is moving. Wonderful, profound, very effective practice; recommend it highly.

[Encephalon]

It has been discussed here quite often. A search should bring up some very informative threads.

 

The thing about zhang zhuang is that it's so utterly simple at face value. You simply stand straight. Everything you need to know about the mechanics are readily available. Where it gets interesting is that while you are standing utterly still, everything is moving. Wonderful, profound, very effective practice; recommend it highly.

 

Agreed, on all counts. It's not necessarily simple, but it's uncomplicated, although there are a number of postural adjustments that need to be maintained, and in the beginning you will find yourself making little micro-adjustments all the time. (Actually, you never really stop making small corrections.) And then there's the awareness you must bring to your breathing as well.

 

I think it receives less attention than it deserves because a lot of people, perhaps the majority, are temperamentally unsuited to embracing this discipline. Plus, you have to accept and invite the inherent challenges and physical discomforts of maintaining this posture for the twenty minutes advised.

 

Hands down, THE most powerful practice I've ever discoverd after decades of seeking.

 

[Trunk]

kick-ass

 

[Baguakid]

People are perhaps looking for exotic, fancy named practices and thus overlook the most simple of exercises out there.

[al.]

I reckon the restless nature of the mind is also a hindrance, as with moving qigong forms, you're kind of giving your mind something to engage in, whilst with zhan zhuang, you're just there and that's it, it's more meditative.

Because of this, it seems that practicing zhan zhuang in a group is really supportive, as a group energy forms and sustains concentration. If you have the right number of people the energetic structures created by holding different stances can really complement and boost the group energy too.

Also, doing standing stances that very very gradually change can be a good way to combat restlessness.

But of course, stillness is great place to get to.

a

[Encephalon]

I reckon the restless nature of the mind is also a hindrance, as with moving qigong forms, you're kind of giving your mind something to engage in, whilst with zhan zhuang, you're just there and that's it, it's more meditative.

Because of this, it seems that practicing zhan zhuang in a group is really supportive, as a group energy forms and sustains concentration. If you have the right number of people the energetic structures created by holding different stances can really complement and boost the group energy too.

Also, doing standing stances that very very gradually change can be a good way to combat restlessness.

But of course, stillness is great place to get to.

a

 

I mistakenly tried to alleviate some of my restlessness by listening to books on CD, or visualization youtube videos, etc. It did help time go by, but I couldn't feel anything. A good lesson learned the hard way. I sometimes recite affirmations in unison with my breathing, but I keep them short. I do use binaural beat technology with noise-cancelling headphones, however. I've used them for over a year and a half now and while the jury is out as to their efficacy, they make me feel great.

 

http://www.iso-tones.com/

[DaoChild]

People are perhaps looking for exotic, fancy named practices and thus overlook the most simple of exercises out there.

 

That about sums up my opinion too. "The great Way is easy, but people prefer the side paths..."

[styrofoamdog]

Isn't zhan zhuang one of the most universal foundations of taoist practice?

 

And isn't it really powerful but really simple?

 

Why isn't this more talked about, better documented, or... anything. It's like this amazing thing that people overlook.

 

Is it it's own system? I've heard that it is a complete one, but extremely complex?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

Thanks,

John

 

The earliest mention of "Zhan Zhuang" is in relation to Gongfu training in Xingyiquan, taught to Wang Xiangzhai by Guo Yunshen, and then taught to a number of different people who propagated it after that. In its original form it was very, very simple. Wang Xiangzhai and his students expanded the number of postures and the variety of different practices. It's basically a secular product of the 19th-20th centuries, though. Any history before that is undocumented.

 

There are many such practices that were invented during the 20th century when "Qigong" became big as a result of Communist persecution of Chinese religion. Spiritual or religious practices were banned, but Qigong was something "for health," secular and physical. Then everyone wore silk pajamas, invented new Qigong systems, and assumed that they represented the height and depth of Chinese civilization. The real history was obfuscated, so now people scrounge around the Daodejing to try to find secret Qigong methods in it, assuming that everything is about circulating Qi around, and Qigong. There are also innumerable New Age ideas surrounding it in the West, to the point where any semblance of actual Daoist practice is drowned out by the noise of modernity.

 

Daoist practice historically usually revolved around silence and emptiness to attain the Dao (Laozi), internal alchemy (Quanzhen), external alchemy (Fangshi in ancient China), or various visualization practices to move or transmit qi from the environment. There are also some other methods such as casting spells, akin to mantras in Buddhism. A lot of it was no doubt adopted from Buddhism and Indian yogis who also had many of the same practices. For example, the lotus position was adopted from India, and ultimately from ancient yoga.

 

Daoism in practice is basically something that is dead, though. It's all "Qigong masters" claiming to have Daoist heritage, or people being hoodwinked at temples. But try to find a real spiritual master who has some attainment of the Dao. It's practically unheard of. People can try to reinvent it all they want, but there are so many modern ideas that inevitably creep into peoples' understanding of it, that it's almost pointless. If people took the Daodejing and the Qingjing Jing, and perhaps some other ancient texts as the basis and studied only these, they would be on the right path. As it is, though, the real masters today are primarily in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Yoga.

[Martial Development]

We need to start from the beginning. First convince people they need to buy a zhan zhuang mat, zhan zhuang stretch pants, and a zhan zhuang DVD set. Then you can use the profits to launch Zhan Zhuang Magazine, which publishes a half-dozen articles on zhan zhuang every month.

 

Problem solved?

[Sloppy Zhang]

People don't talk about it because it's boring.

 

"Hey, how can I up my practice?"

 

"Do some Zhan Zhuang."

 

"Okay..... anything else?"

 

"Nope."

 

*stands for 20 minutes*

 

"All right, now what do I do?"

 

"Do some more zhan zhuang."

 

"Um.... okay.... Hey, do I need to focus on powering up like a super saiyan?"

 

"Nope."

 

"Oh, do I imagine that I can fly or walk on water?"

 

"Nope."

 

"Oh......"

 

 

Hard work is boring and unglamorous.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Aetherous]

Problem solved?

 

Actually, I think you're onto something. Not even joking.

[RiverSnake]

 

Hard work is boring and unglamorous.

 

I respectfully disagree, i highly enjoy my Zhan Zhuang sessions and i also enjoy meditation. However, i think i'm the exception more than the rule.

 

-The Way of Energy was the first book i ever stumbled upon for Chi Kung. I'm grateful to have come upon such a gem so early in my practice (4 weeks to be exact).

Edited June 8, 2010 by Tao Apprentice

[Sloppy Zhang]

I respectfully disagree, i highly enjoy my Zhan Zhuang sessions and i also enjoy meditation. However, i think i'm the exception more than the rule.

 

-The Way of Energy was the first book i ever stumbled upon for Chi Kung. I'm grateful to have come upon such a gem so early in my practice (4 weeks to be exact).

 

I mean I enjoy my practice too, I think you should enjoy your practice and I think that's one of the ways to keep interest.

 

But let me put it this way, at my university we have a meditation club, and one of my friends showed up one day, and we do an hour of sitting meditation, and my friend sat there for 10 minutes, then sat there looking around the room. It was boring.

 

Same with with zhan zhuang. After you stand there for a while, if you aren't particularly motivated, don't particularly enjoy it, or aren't really clear on why you are doing what you're doing, then it's just not going to work for you.

 

And it's not like it's really glamorous. It's not like there's really much to talk about, especially on a discussion forum. Most questions you have about the practice get resolved by doing the practice. And the practice is simple and straightforward. Sure, at higher levels you can realize deeper and deeper complexities as the secrets of the universe are revealed to you.... but at the end of the day, you're just standing there

[Gerard]

Same goes for walking meditation, personal recipe of Buddha's enlightenment.

 

What happens is that during walking meditation:

 

1. You are triggering internal alchemy

2. You are constantly massaging your internal organs due to upward force released during constant pressure on the soles of your feet and their connection to various meridians and hence the organs themselves.

3. Increased concentration.

4. Mental clarity and awareness are opened up to the highest level possible.

5. Increased calmness and less worry about life in general

6. Improved overall health.

7. Less food and sleep are needed to the point that if you are on retreat one meal a day and a short nap is all you need.

8. You are opening yourself up to higher states of consciousness and universal truths quite quickly.

 

 

So powerful yet so simple. Combine it with sitting meditation and you can do it many hours a day especially during retreat. Try and you shall reap its lasting benefits.

 

 

Edited: added new info.

Edited June 8, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[Mal]

It's not like there's really much to talk about, especially on a discussion forum. Most questions you have about the practice get resolved by doing the practice. And the practice is simple and straightforward.

 

 

It is a shame that we so try to articulate, to explain.

 

When really there just isn't anything to say.

 

Just be.

[RiverSnake]

Same goes for walking meditation, personal recipe of Buddha's enlightenment.

 

What happens is that during walking meditation:

 

1. You are triggering internal alchemy

2. You are constantly massaging your internal organs due to upward force released during constant pressure on the soles of your feet and their connection to various meridians and hence the organs themselves.

3. Increased concentration.

4. Mental clarity and awareness are opened up to the highest level possible.

5. Increased calmness and less worry about life in general

6. Improved overall health.

7. Less food and sleep are needed to the point that if you are on retreat one meal a day and a short nap is all you need.

8. You are opening yourself up to higher states of consciousness and universal truths quite quickly.

 

 

So powerful yet so simple. Combine it with sitting meditation and you can do it many hours a day especially during retreat. Try and you shall reap its lasting benefits.

 

 

Edited: added new info.

 

Never heard that before, cool.

[Gerard]

Never heard that before, cool.

 

Sure most of the good stuff is taught in a rich oral tradition. That includes Buddhism and Taoism. You learn more on a single retreat with seasoned spiritual seekers than reading 1,000 books.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Sure most of the good stuff is taught in a rich oral tradition. That includes Buddhism and Taoism. You learn more on a single retreat with seasoned spiritual seekers than reading 1,000 books.

 

I think that depends on the books

 

A lot of seasoned spiritual seekers have a lot of good stuff out in print, especially for someone who reads carefully and between the lines. There's a lot more out there than people think.

[Eric23]

I came across this gentleman's web site years ago when first starting out. Very nice discussion on zhan zhuang, lots of references. http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/wuji.htm

 

The Way of Energy is a very good starting point. Like so many things along this path that we are all traveling upon, the benefits come from doing a practice consistently, daily and for a long time. You can only read so much, go to so many retreats, seek out every teacher under the sun, at some point in time you have to just do it. Chop wood, carry water.

[markern]

The earliest mention of "Zhan Zhuang" is in relation to Gongfu training in Xingyiquan, taught to Wang Xiangzhai by Guo Yunshen, and then taught to a number of different people who propagated it after that. In its original form it was very, very simple. Wang Xiangzhai and his students expanded the number of postures and the variety of different practices. It's basically a secular product of the 19th-20th centuries, though. Any history before that is undocumented.

 

There are many such practices that were invented during the 20th century when "Qigong" became big as a result of Communist persecution of Chinese religion. Spiritual or religious practices were banned, but Qigong was something "for health," secular and physical. Then everyone wore silk pajamas, invented new Qigong systems, and assumed that they represented the height and depth of Chinese civilization. The real history was obfuscated, so now people scrounge around the Daodejing to try to find secret Qigong methods in it, assuming that everything is about circulating Qi around, and Qigong. There are also innumerable New Age ideas surrounding it in the West, to the point where any semblance of actual Daoist practice is drowned out by the noise of modernity.

 

Daoist practice historically usually revolved around silence and emptiness to attain the Dao (Laozi), internal alchemy (Quanzhen), external alchemy (Fangshi in ancient China), or various visualization practices to move or transmit qi from the environment. There are also some other methods such as casting spells, akin to mantras in Buddhism. A lot of it was no doubt adopted from Buddhism and Indian yogis who also had many of the same practices. For example, the lotus position was adopted from India, and ultimately from ancient yoga.

 

Daoism in practice is basically something that is dead, though. It's all "Qigong masters" claiming to have Daoist heritage, or people being hoodwinked at temples. But try to find a real spiritual master who has some attainment of the Dao. It's practically unheard of. People can try to reinvent it all they want, but there are so many modern ideas that inevitably creep into peoples' understanding of it, that it's almost pointless. If people took the Daodejing and the Qingjing Jing, and perhaps some other ancient texts as the basis and studied only these, they would be on the right path. As it is, though, the real masters today are primarily in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Yoga.

 

I seem to get the impression that China is full of huge amounts of alchemical systems that are widely different such as mopai and maoshan stuff. It seems to me there are so many very, very different systems while the yoga systems seem me to be all the same basically. So it seems strange to me that Daosim would not have plenty of good alchemical systems with realized masters. Not sure it is one way or the other just an impression I get.

[JohnC]

Thanks guys for all the posts.

 

Yea I've read opening the energy gates and way of power, kunlun (following Jenny Lamb's style though). Chugging through Eva wong's books, Jade dragon white tiger stuff, and am going to read Monkey.

 

Want to check out ZY qigong, and go learn from Jenny, Wang Li Ping, or other accomplished master.

 

Currently my practice is an hour of Zhan Zhuang a day, and hour of spring forest qigong, and an hour of kunlun/or zazen if I feel like it.

 

Bruce Frantzis was saying that until recently was anything called qi gong. That it was all internal cultivation(nei gong) and external (can't remember the name).

 

@Markern

I seem to get the impression that China is full of huge amounts of alchemical systems that are widely different such as mopai and maoshan stuff.

 

Man, if so, I gotta go to China, learn mandarin and find some masters.

 

It's almost like, how would you know they are accomplished? What if there are a bunch?

 

@durkhrod chogori

So powerful yet so simple. Combine it with sitting meditation and you can do it many hours a day especially during retreat. Try and you shall reap its lasting benefits.

 

Yea. It seems the most powerful is the most simple... at least at the beginning? But I'm going to check out walking meditation.

 

It seems we take for granted living, which has a lot more going on than we think... and either that or Taoists made living complicated... or maybe just broke down the miracle of every moment, into whats going on?

 

But yea, totally on the, 'simple is not always what people want.'

 

@styrofoamdog

Daoist practice historically usually revolved around silence and emptiness to attain the Dao (Laozi), internal alchemy (Quanzhen), external alchemy (Fangshi in ancient China), or various visualization practices to move or transmit qi from the environment. There are also some other methods such as casting spells, akin to mantras in Buddhism. A lot of it was no doubt adopted from Buddhism and Indian yogis who also had many of the same practices. For example, the lotus position was adopted from India, and ultimately from ancient yoga.

 

I hear of some, on the forum and the like... at least I hope so.

 

Like:

Wang li ping

Jenny lamb

John Chang

Grandmaster Zhang - from http://www.qigongmaster.com/index.htm

Robert Peng

Sifu Jiang? - who is this, I've heard about him but don't know any info....

Ming Tang from zyqigong

 

John

Edited June 8, 2010 by JohnC

[adept]

Nobody yet has mentioned that ZZ is very, very tough to actually do properly. It's not just a case of standing still and meditating.

There has to be constant monitoring of your position, foot placement, alignment, weight distribution, sinking, tucking, expanding, sucking in of the crown, lao gang and yong quan, etc etc.

I have practiced it for years and it doesn't get any easier as time goes by.

Try standing in San Ti while adhering to the six harmonies for anything over 6-7 minutes per side and you'll see what I mean. Absolute hell, but paradoxically enjoyable at the same time.

[JohnC]

Nobody yet has mentioned that ZZ is very, very tough to actually do properly. It's not just a case of standing still and meditating.

 

Is it?

 

I just hold the posture and move toward easiest position, till my bones hold me up and I'm not flexing other than holding the position. Like trusting my intuition to auto correct me.

 

Usually held while I observe internally.

 

I've mainly stuck with the holding ball - at the belly and chest and the pushing outwards(number 3 from way of power).

 

Haven't messed with any of the martial ones yet? In fact not even sure the distinction of martial is accurate..

 

John

Edited June 8, 2010 by JohnC

[adept]

I think that depends on the books

 

A lot of seasoned spiritual seekers have a lot of good stuff out in print, especially for someone who reads carefully and between the lines. There's a lot more out there than people think.

 

 

 

There is an awful lot of very valuable stuff online for free also.