Zhan zhuang

[mjjbecker]

Taoist is not about talk or reading ill-translated verses - it is about being and doing within that being.

 

Absolutely. But there will always be a lot of 'opinion', especially from people who have no direct experience of things and have never spent any meaningful time in China/Asia/'at the source'. Oh well.

 

Unfortunately, the translations are inaccurate at times, the translators lacking direct experience of what they are trying to describe. Add to that most Chinese people also lack the direct experience, so outside of direct instruction from someone who knows...

[Stigweard]

[styrofoamdog]

You still don't understand. What I am referring to IS a complete path and actually has little to do with "moving qi up and down the governing vessel." The Taoist system does use complete silence so that nothing is left undone.

 

Right in most cases as the real methods were hidden, lost or wrapped up and concealed. But wrong in this case. If you want to learn a true High Level Taoist method instead of reading meaningless words you are welcome to do so.

 

Taoist is not about talk or reading ill-translated verses - it is about being and doing within that being. Higher Level approach, teachings from the ascended masters, little concern with body and much concern with the Higher Level immortal self as it relates and is to the universe; all these things are part of the system.

 

I never said that your system had anything to do with moving qi up and down the governor vessel. I only used that as an example of the closest thing to energy circulation practices that can be found in the classical works of Daoism. They all avoided even talking about moving qi.

 

The real high methods were never hidden or concealed anywhere. They have always been in the classics, and quite plainly, but few people understand them. If you compare the highest methods in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Yoga, you would see that they correspond very closely with the best classical Daoist texts, not with any so-called "secret" methods, which are really just energy movement practices.

 

If you think that the Qingjing Jing is meaningless words, then that is really an insult to the entire Daoist tradition. That's like saying Lu Dongbin's 100-character Tablet is useless. Since the Tang Dynasty, the Qingjing Jing has been the most central Daoist text for practice. If you didn't know that, I wonder what it is that you have been practicing? The secret secret secret secret systems are usually just Qigong.

 

Whenever someone brings up historical Daoist practices or real Daoist texts, there is a strong undercurrent on this forum of anti-intellectualism. Everyone thinks they know already what Daoist practice is, yet few have even read the basic classics that outline practice. If someone brings up a Daoist classic and actually takes its teachings seriously, forum members will come in and criticize it as empty intellectualism because they don't yet understand the meaning. But these classics were written to show people the path, and authored by sages and immortals. As the old saying goes, "There is no immortal who does not study."

 

I have no need for anyone else's "system." Anyone with the Qingjing Jing has enough information to attain the Dao. Anyone with the Diamond Sutra has enough information to become a Buddha. It's just a matter of wisdom, discipline, and meditation after that. The information is adequate, but while these other things are lacking, the practice will not be complete. In ancient times people would understand these texts very deeply and put all their efforts into practice. Now people give the classics a slight glance, blame the text itself, and then go chasing after the flavor of the month qigong system. That's just a big joke, and it's a pity that this site is called "Tao Bums," because it has little to do with ancient Daoist practices.

[Ya Mu]

I never said that your system had anything to do with moving qi up and down the governor vessel. I only used that as an example of the closest thing to energy circulation practices that can be found in the classical works of Daoism. They all avoided even talking about moving qi.

 

The real high methods were never hidden or concealed anywhere. They have always been in the classics, and quite plainly, but few people understand them. If you compare the highest methods in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Yoga, you would see that they correspond very closely with the best classical Daoist texts, not with any so-called "secret" methods, which are really just energy movement practices.

 

If you think that the Qingjing Jing is meaningless words, then that is really an insult to the entire Daoist tradition. That's like saying Lu Dongbin's 100-character Tablet is useless. Since the Tang Dynasty, the Qingjing Jing has been the most central Daoist text for practice. If you didn't know that, I wonder what it is that you have been practicing? The secret secret secret secret systems are usually just Qigong.

 

Whenever someone brings up historical Daoist practices or real Daoist texts, there is a strong undercurrent on this forum of anti-intellectualism. Everyone thinks they know already what Daoist practice is, yet few have even read the basic classics that outline practice. If someone brings up a Daoist classic and actually takes its teachings seriously, forum members will come in and criticize it as empty intellectualism because they don't yet understand the meaning. But these classics were written to show people the path, and authored by sages and immortals. As the old saying goes, "There is no immortal who does not study."

 

I have no need for anyone else's "system." Anyone with the Qingjing Jing has enough information to attain the Dao. Anyone with the Diamond Sutra has enough information to become a Buddha. It's just a matter of wisdom, discipline, and meditation after that. The information is adequate, but while these other things are lacking, the practice will not be complete. In ancient times people would understand these texts very deeply and put all their efforts into practice. Now people give the classics a slight glance, blame the text itself, and then go chasing after the flavor of the month qigong system. That's just a big joke, and it's a pity that this site is called "Tao Bums," because it has little to do with ancient Daoist practices.

Your points seem all aimed at minimizing experience and emphasizing intellectual comprehension of texts which have been translated many ways, and as mjbecker pointed out, usually by people who are scholars with no actual experience. It also appears that you have a bias against energy systems, but to each their own.

At one time I thought I understood some but certainly not all of these texts. My experience has proven my understanding oh-so-wrong.

 

I do teach an authentic Taoist system. Open to those that really wish to learn. Closed to those that do not.

 

Although IMO the brain does nothing to bring one closer to walking in Tao, I wish you the best and good luck with your intellectual understanding.

[Old Man Contradiction]

It's given me a lot more power. It's taken me to a world of work I previously never thought possible.

 

I've never heard the words "six harmonies" before. But it sounds like another word for the six directions.

 

Standing in a posture is easy.

Put the six directions into the same posture and you'll be burning and shaking in a few minutes.

[styrofoamdog]

Your points seem all aimed at minimizing experience and emphasizing intellectual comprehension of texts which have been translated many ways, and as mjbecker pointed out, usually by people who are scholars with no actual experience. It also appears that you have a bias against energy systems, but to each their own.

At one time I thought I understood some but certainly not all of these texts. My experience has proven my understanding oh-so-wrong.

 

I do teach an authentic Taoist system. Open to those that really wish to learn. Closed to those that do not.

 

Although IMO the brain does nothing to bring one closer to walking in Tao, I wish you the best and good luck with your intellectual understanding.

 

No, in fact I am not minimizing experience at all. I am saying that practice should follow theory, and that if they don't, exactly what are the principles of the practice? You think that your system is Daoist, but is totally different from the general principles in the Daoist classics? I am also not saying that intellectualism has anything to do with the practice of attaining the Dao, but rather of perceiving truth and learning the basic principles of practice. They are like a road map. In order to correctly understand Daoist practice methods, people should not be too arrogant as to ignore the Daoist classics, which have served as real guides for Daoists since the classical period. The alchemical classics are but one type of Daoist classic.

 

Associating the brain with the mind is incorrect. Ancient Daoism emphasized cultivation of the mind, which is not the intellect or knowledge, but developed through the highest forms of virtue and meditation. These are not the same as the energy practices that people play around with today. The major principle is that when the mind has finally settled, then the true pre-heaven qi arises (kundalini), not the thick post-heaven dirty qi cultivated by people from the food and air. 99.9% of people with these energy practices are just cultivating more of this post-heaven qi, which is nothing special. This is yin qi acquired from mundane life, not the pure yang qi spoken of in the Daoist classics. When they sit down to meditate, of course they can't keep their minds still, because they are just ordinary people playing games with their yin qi. Immortals like Lu Dongbin "stripped off the layers" of yin qi naturally in silence to reveal the pure yang qi. Hence the immortal Lu Dongbin's other name, Lu Chunyang (Pure Yang).

 

Without a basis in any texts and by ignoring all their wisdom, people are just running around and trying to reinvent Daoism.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

One of the more profound workshops i have attended was a weekend workshop with Cai Song Feng.. we worked from 5 minutes of Wuji to 40 minutes of Wuji on both days.. between sessions we played some Wu-style pushing drills to balance the practice.. that was maybe 15 years ago, Bill (Baguakid) was there.. do you recall how long ago that was? Anyway, i still practice daily a minimum of 20 minutes, but i favor the opportunities for 40 minute sessions.. ZZ is just a simple energizing of the upper extremities, increasing the awareness of the shoulders/arms/hands without 'thinking' about them.. 20 minutes of ZZ in the A.M. and 20 minutes of Wuji in the P.M. is a nice balance.. for 'me' anyway..

 

Be well..

[mjjbecker]

No, in fact I am not minimizing experience at all. I am saying that practice should follow theory, and that if they don't, exactly what are the principles of the practice? You think that your system is Daoist, but is totally different from the general principles in the Daoist classics? I am also not saying that intellectualism has anything to do with the practice of attaining the Dao, but rather of perceiving truth and learning the basic principles of practice. They are like a road map. In order to correctly understand Daoist practice methods, people should not be too arrogant as to ignore the Daoist classics, which have served as real guides for Daoists since the classical period. The alchemical classics are but one type of Daoist classic.

 

Associating the brain with the mind is incorrect. Ancient Daoism emphasized cultivation of the mind, which is not the intellect or knowledge, but developed through the highest forms of virtue and meditation. These are not the same as the energy practices that people play around with today. The major principle is that when the mind has finally settled, then the true pre-heaven qi arises (kundalini), not the thick post-heaven dirty qi cultivated by people from the food and air. 99.9% of people with these energy practices are just cultivating more of this post-heaven qi, which is nothing special. This is yin qi acquired from mundane life, not the pure yang qi spoken of in the Daoist classics. When they sit down to meditate, of course they can't keep their minds still, because they are just ordinary people playing games with their yin qi. Immortals like Lu Dongbin "stripped off the layers" of yin qi naturally in silence to reveal the pure yang qi. Hence the immortal Lu Dongbin's other name, Lu Chunyang (Pure Yang).

 

Without a basis in any texts and by ignoring all their wisdom, people are just running around and trying to reinvent Daoism.

 

I think there is some talking at cross purposes.

 

No one is saying the classics are bad. What we are saying is that:

 

1. They are very difficult to translate correctly.

2. Without direct experience of the practices mentioned, one cannot appreciate the actual meanings.

3. Very few people have that direct experience, and it seems non of the translators.

 

Esoteric texts were written as an aide memoire for students under direct instruction by teachers who had completed the level of training being written about. This was a practice used widely, and can still be encountered in some of the Japanese koryu.

 

However, the descriptions were deliberately vague, so as to prevent outsiders from being able to get anything useful should they aquire these texts. Look at some of the opinions of koryu instructors regarding various translations of 'A Book of Five Rings'. These opinions vary between contempt and derision. Why? Because anyone not intimate with the correct application of Japanese swordwork has not a hope of graping the correct meaning of what is being said.

 

This applies across the board.

 

First must come experience.

From this experience one gains the realisation that allows them to understand the texts.

 

FWIW, Michael Lomax has one of the best lineages in such things most people are likely to find. Not only that, by being able to start the one true seed, he can do something the vast majority of qigong instructors cannot do. Those that can are usually very particular about who they help. If ML was Chinese, chose to use arcane language, and did the silk robes thing, people would be kicking his door down for instruction. Far too many value appearance over substance. Their loss.

[healerman88]

so why do we find the need to experience or study this physical balance in the first place?

 

some people don't even have the option of symmetry, so what should they do?

[C T]

 

 

First must come experience.

From this experience one gains the realisation that allows them to understand the texts.

This could be true for other things, but in terms of spiritual cultivation, there are more 'steps' involved, imo.

 

First come knowledge (studying of texts). Then reflection. Then practice, followed by experience/reflection. Then matching experience against higher knowledge. Then contemplation, leading to realization. Then beyond knowledge and experience. Finally, transformation/transcendence/ascendence.

[Stigweard]

[Old Man Contradiction]

so why do we find the need to experience or study this physical balance in the first place?

 

some people don't even have the option of symmetry, so what should they do?

 

I've seen some very laughable zhan zhuang. "study[ing] this physical balance" is another word for wasting time. You are wise to question this.

 

As for those with a health problems concerning symmetry (scoliosis?), find a good TCM doctor or chiropractor.

 

IMO lessons and experience need to coincide. For example, My own interpretation of the six directions could very well be false, but if I am on the right path than as I understand it, it's impossible for someone who has not trained the six directions to be able to understand it's significance.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Old Man Contradiction

[styrofoamdog]

It is true that some Daoist classics can be difficult to translate, but even these can still serve their purpose. Someone with experience can look at even a botched translation and pick up the original meaning. However, the language of most classics is not so difficult. Their symbolism may be more complex in the case of alchemical texts, but these are just one type. Most Daoist texts don't use elusive language, but the meaning is deep and may not be interpreted correctly by the reader. Thomas Cleary does a decent job, partially because he has translated so many other spiritual texts. Eva Wong is also decent as well. Both have put a great deal of effort into publishing original Daoist classics. Sadly, few so-called "Daoists" in the West ever take the time to read any of them.

 

In the past, Daoists loved to study and collect knowledge about the Dao, which they viewed as being as valuable as treasure. Even the Chinese Daoist canon is called the "Treasury of the Dao." All accounts depict the Daoist sages as great lovers of learning who respected the classics and were eager to learn their methods. Now people aren't even willing to cough up $10 and a few hours to learn from them, because they would rather dabble in a modern craze. They are equally ignorant of even the most basic history. Is it any wonder that Buddhism and Hinduism are in good order, but Daoism is in such a poor state?

[Ya Mu]

No, in fact I am not minimizing experience at all. I am saying that practice should follow theory, and that if they don't, exactly what are the principles of the practice? You think that your system is Daoist, but is totally different from the general principles in the Daoist classics? I am also not saying that intellectualism has anything to do with the practice of attaining the Dao, but rather of perceiving truth and learning the basic principles of practice. They are like a road map. In order to correctly understand Daoist practice methods, people should not be too arrogant as to ignore the Daoist classics, which have served as real guides for Daoists since the classical period. The alchemical classics are but one type of Daoist classic.

 

Associating the brain with the mind is incorrect. Ancient Daoism emphasized cultivation of the mind, which is not the intellect or knowledge, but developed through the highest forms of virtue and meditation. These are not the same as the energy practices that people play around with today. The major principle is that when the mind has finally settled, then the true pre-heaven qi arises (kundalini), not the thick post-heaven dirty qi cultivated by people from the food and air. 99.9% of people with these energy practices are just cultivating more of this post-heaven qi, which is nothing special. This is yin qi acquired from mundane life, not the pure yang qi spoken of in the Daoist classics. When they sit down to meditate, of course they can't keep their minds still, because they are just ordinary people playing games with their yin qi. Immortals like Lu Dongbin "stripped off the layers" of yin qi naturally in silence to reveal the pure yang qi. Hence the immortal Lu Dongbin's other name, Lu Chunyang (Pure Yang).

 

Without a basis in any texts and by ignoring all their wisdom, people are just running around and trying to reinvent Daoism.

 

Mind and brain are not interrelated? Do you think? I assume so - woops you just used your brain and mind.

 

Practice follows theory? No, practice must always transcend theory. Theory is a linear lay out of supposed facts. Totally meaningless without the supposed facts becoming self-evident. To "think" one knows is not the same as something becoming self-evident.

 

When I met my first Taoist teacher I wanted to show off my knowledge. So to prove I was a worthy student (ha ha) I would quote various Chinese texts, after all I totally understood (again, ha ha) these oh-so-wise verses. What happened was that he found it so very funny and he would laugh at me. It was only after I had been with him for several years that I understood he was laughing with me instead of at me. I find it quite funny now as well.

[Ya Mu]

[ejr1069]

I have been practicing Master Lam Cam Chuen's "Way of Energy" Zhan Zhuang for almost 3 years now. Also practice yoga and sometimes Kunlun. My Zhan Zhuang sessions have become very intense, my whole body or various parts of my body spontaneously shake, sometimes violently. I build much heat and sweat too. Having numbness in forhead and brow frequently and am often very tired.

 

Could I be developing too much chi for my nervous system to handle? Might that explain the tiredness? I am definitely experiencing Kundalini, or at least kundalini on the rise, maybe not a full blown Kundalini experience. I feel that I am on the verge of a breakrhough in consciousness. But I struggle with the tiredness. It truly impacts my ability to focus and work.

 

I am curious if anyone else has experienced this too.

[EagleShen]

It is true that some Daoist classics can be difficult to translate, but even these can still serve their purpose. Someone with experience can look at even a botched translation and pick up the original meaning. However, the language of most classics is not so difficult. Their symbolism may be more complex in the case of alchemical texts, but these are just one type. Most Daoist texts don't use elusive language, but the meaning is deep and may not be interpreted correctly by the reader. Thomas Cleary does a decent job, partially because he has translated so many other spiritual texts. Eva Wong is also decent as well. Both have put a great deal of effort into publishing original Daoist classics. Sadly, few so-called "Daoists" in the West ever take the time to read any of them.

 

Most people just want to relax, get fit, feel good, and aren't interested in enlightenment or realisation of the Tao, this is a problem across all approaches. And it's not just reading them, but studying them deeply that the goodness lay.

 

In the past, Daoists loved to study and collect knowledge about the Dao, which they viewed as being as valuable as treasure. Even the Chinese Daoist canon is called the "Treasury of the Dao." All accounts depict the Daoist sages as great lovers of learning who respected the classics and were eager to learn their methods. Now people aren't even willing to cough up $10 and a few hours to learn from them, because they would rather dabble in a modern craze. They are equally ignorant of even the most basic history. Is it any wonder that Buddhism and Hinduism are in good order, but Daoism is in such a poor state?

 

I'm not entirely convinced Hinduism in the west is in a particularly good state either, almost similarly people pursue the 'best' form of yoga when it is merely a preparation for meditation, they are fascinated by kundalini awakening and think the awakenings of kundalini are some kind of enlightenment, and i really doubt most people have read the classics.

 

IMO Daoism is still suffering from the disruption caused to the tradition in China, but there are some amazing and genuine teachers out there in the world, and few of them have big marketing machines behind them because what they teach is too subtle for most, they are interested in quality students, not quantity, i've been lucky enough to study with one of them, and perhaps another. What they teach is very different to any of the modern qigong stuff i've read in books.

 

Most people just don't take the time to get the subtleties no matter what the tradition, they miss the true art of the stillness, and they aren't willing to pursue their goal relentlessly and shy they away from the difficult work of truly facing yourself.

 

Oh, and Zhan Zhuang rocks, even if you can't find a teacher (always preferable), like any physical art part of the key is self observation and correction, not 'just standing there'.

[styrofoamdog]

Of course if you have no practice, you won't understand a lot of what is in the Daoist classics. But if you don't take the time to study the Daoist classics, you won't have a larger understanding of the path. Then you will just drift around like many people do on this forum, going from one Qigong practice to the next. The whole thing devolves into complete nonsense when these people use totally different concepts and vocabulary borrowed haphazardly from New Age sources, and then they try to pass that off as Daoism. It's just a big joke.

[ejr1069]

Of course if you have no practice, you won't understand a lot of what is in the Daoist classics. But if you don't take the time to study the Daoist classics, you won't have a larger understanding of the path. Then you will just drift around like many people do on this forum, going from one Qigong practice to the next. The whole thing devolves into complete nonsense when these people use totally different concepts and vocabulary borrowed haphazardly from New Age sources, and then they try to pass that off as Daoism. It's just a big joke.

 

Well, Daoism is just one path to the truth. Swami Satchidnanda said "One truth, many paths". There is a lot of wisdom in that statement. I think a lot of people jump around from practice to practice because they haven't found one that truly resonates with them. Others might jump out of fear or misunderstanding. I also think that there is a lot of misinformation out there as well, confusing the aspirant. I applaud anyone who starts on the journey and try not to judge the path(s) they choose as the path to self realization is not easy.

[Aetherous]

My Zhan Zhuang sessions have become very intense, my whole body or various parts of my body spontaneously shake, sometimes violently. I build much heat and sweat too. Having numbness in forhead and brow frequently and am often very tired.

 

Standing should make you feel more energetic, not more tired.

 

If you feel tired, don't do practices. Rest.

 

If you're still tired, look at other things that could cause it...

 

At a higher level of zhan zhuang, it becomes more effortless, with energy easily flowing and integrating your whole body and beyond.

[Baguakid]

Greetings..

 

One of the more profound workshops i have attended was a weekend workshop with Cai Song Feng.. we worked from 5 minutes of Wuji to 40 minutes of Wuji on both days.. between sessions we played some Wu-style pushing drills to balance the practice.. that was maybe 15 years ago, Bill (Baguakid) was there.. do you recall how long ago that was? Anyway, i still practice daily a minimum of 20 minutes, but i favor the opportunities for 40 minute sessions.. ZZ is just a simple energizing of the upper extremities, increasing the awareness of the shoulders/arms/hands without 'thinking' about them.. 20 minutes of ZZ in the A.M. and 20 minutes of Wuji in the P.M. is a nice balance.. for 'me' anyway..

 

Be well..

 

Hey Bob, yeah, that was around 93 I think. Around the same time you met the Chen stylist (Cui? if you find those websites BTW, feel free to send it any time <smile>). I like Cai's standing method but what really secured it was exposure to Tony Ho in California (Wu Taiji stylist). He follows the same alignment principles with the execption of having the hands up instead of down. Tony, because he built and expanded on the same principles as Cai, has a complete different result. In addition, not known by students of both teachers, they both do sitting meditations every evening. Both amazing teachers.

[gendao]

Associating the brain with the mind is incorrect. Ancient Daoism emphasized cultivation of the mind, which is not the intellect or knowledge, but developed through the highest forms of virtue and meditation. These are not the same as the energy practices that people play around with today. The major principle is that when the mind has finally settled, then the true pre-heaven qi arises (kundalini), not the thick post-heaven dirty qi cultivated by people from the food and air. 99.9% of people with these energy practices are just cultivating more of this post-heaven qi, which is nothing special. This is yin qi acquired from mundane life, not the pure yang qi spoken of in the Daoist classics. When they sit down to meditate, of course they can't keep their minds still, because they are just ordinary people playing games with their yin qi. Immortals like Lu Dongbin "stripped off the layers" of yin qi naturally in silence to reveal the pure yang qi. Hence the immortal Lu Dongbin's other name, Lu Chunyang (Pure Yang).

Nice points. I think the old classics do give us some good instruction...but at best are still strongly limited by the limitations of language itself.

 

For example, it's often said that yang qi is cultivated in stillness. Ok well, how many here have actually felt this yang qi? Or would know how to recognize it? And confirm it? Or distinguish it from yin qi? Or postnatal from prenatal qi? How do you know if you're doing it right...and just need more time? Or simply are doing it wrong? Or are doing it right, slowly cultivating yang qi, but don't really know it yet? Etc, etc.

 

The big canyon is in taking the classroom theory (Daoist classics) and properly replicating the same results in the lab (your body). Only THEN do you know that you've really understood the text. And each person basically has to "rediscover" this for themselves.

[Ya Mu]

...

Zhan zhuang is simple, but takes a long time to perfect, if ever. I've been doing it daily for many months now, and only within the past week noticed that my right knee was forward of my left one. And this was due to the top of my right pelvis tilting forward as the bottom tilted back (a problem I already knew I had, but hadn't noticed its effect here yet). Thus also shifting my center slightly to my right. So, it takes a lot of time to recognize & unwind our ingrained bad habits and attain a truly symmetrical, neutral pose...just for starters. Unlearn, forget, allow, remember...

You describe a problem that may be the primary contributor to low back pain. I see this everyday in clinic. And try to show them what they are doing and how to correct it. Most do not recognize that they are doing it. Yes, bad habits are difficult to break.

[styrofoamdog]

Nice points. I think the old classics do give us some good instruction...but at best are still strongly limited by the limitations of language itself.

 

For example, it's often said that yang qi is cultivated in stillness. Ok well, how many here have actually felt this yang qi? Or would know how to recognize it? And confirm it? Or distinguish it from yin qi? Or postnatal from prenatal qi? How do you know if you're doing it right...and just need more time? Or simply are doing it wrong? Or are doing it right, slowly cultivating yang qi, but don't really know it yet? Etc, etc.

I can experience it through the practice of certain mantras. However, it will not resurface and truly rise on its own yet because the yin has not been stripped off enough -- that is to say, there are still blockages in my legs. Anyone who has truly opened their legs will experience the yang qi. This is because the yin qi must first pass through the front of the legs, down through the feet and toes, and finally back up the back of the legs. If these passages have cleared, then the yang qi will rise naturally and the yin qi will fade away. The lotus position quickens this process, which is why Daoism emphasized this following its introduction into China. Anyone who has opened the legs to some degree is able to sit indefinitely in lotus position without pain.

 

If someone practices in silence without creating thoughts, this will all happen in the natural order. That is why the high level texts don't explain these things in terms of the body and qi movement. If they did, people would snatch hold of these ideas about trying to recreate all these various phenomena, and that is something entirely different. The lower level texts explain all these things, but were naturally misinterpreted, so people thought that Daoist practice was a matter of mixing and circulating this and that. Just a technical matter of being clever and gathering all the right ingredients for the cake. This was totally different from the orthodox Daoism of the classical period. Now people can't even read Laozi without looking for secret Qigong methods. Originally Daoism stressed a mind of purity, stillness, virtue, and silence. The eyes see nothing, the ears hear nothing, and the mind creates no thoughts.

 

Pre-heaven qi and post-heaven qi are essentially the same as yang qi and yin qi in this context. There is also pre-pre-heaven qi, but that is at a stage that is so far beyond that it isn't even worth talking about. "Post-heaven" refers to the sources of energy gained from mundane life through food and air. "Pre-heaven" refers to the primordial energy inherent in life. "Yang" here refers to the pure and the positive. "Yin" here refers to the turbid and negative. Post-heaven qi is propelled through the motion of the lungs and coarse breathing. Yang qi moves on its own accord naturally, which roughly coincides with the natural cessation of the breath.

 

The big canyon is in taking the classroom theory (Daoist classics) and properly replicating the same results in the lab (your body). Only THEN do you know that you've really understood the text. And each person basically has to "rediscover" this for themselves.

Yes, when the experiences and the descriptions match, then you are at the same point.

[healerman88]

this stuff seems pretty complicated. i might just stick to sun gazing.

 

joke: man, the tao of pooh didn't say anything about this crap.

the act of saying it was the joke, but it's true.

 

alright, so you guys know a lot. i respect that. so opinions would be appreciated:

 

can anyone tell me if it would be a smart thing to undertake zhan zhuang (or sitting or walking meditation for that matter) on my own? i do have attention to detail down nicely. (i'm a virgo. i've always had attention to detail. this is the fourth time i'm revising this post! i guess i'm really interested...) and i've been studying awareness of awareness for a while now; that's another way of saying the space below thought and attachments.

 

there's a skilled internal kung fu teacher nearby. he's very learned in the history and philosophy but teaches very little zhan zhuang in the basic tai chi classes (mostly about the movements), and i'd rather focus on healing. (duh) i could take private lessons from him for $1/min if i could afford it. this takes years to master, right? i could probably just check in with him every once in a while.

 

i'm really excitable right now. anyway, i'm gonna go stand.