Zhan zhuang

[Trunk]

I "felt the power" for a long time, but it just wouldn't integrate , self-acupressure really opened up my standing practices.

 

 

~~ moderator's note ~~

Deleted healerman88's duplicate post, above.

~~ mod squad out ~~~

[Mattimo]

Standing should make you feel more energetic, not more tired.

 

If you feel tired, don't do practices. Rest.

 

If you're still tired, look at other things that could cause it...

 

At a higher level of zhan zhuang, it becomes more effortless, with energy easily flowing and integrating your whole body and beyond.

 

I respectfully disagree. What you are experiencing is completely normal. Zhan Zhuang shouldn't necessarily make you feel energetic - at least at this stage. In my opinion the shaking you are experiencing is caused by muscle fatigue and/or the elimination of parasitic tension. The heat is thusly a result of muscular releases which will eventually subside so as to provide you with a greater awareness of your skeletal structure.

 

Keep up the good work,

 

Matt

[Aetherous]

I agree, Mattimo. I should not have given the impression that he was practicing incorrectly.

[Spectrum]

He told me continuing to practice in all positions, particular to active rest positions, meant to slowly open the windows and doors in the right order so the wind blows through te whole house cooling and refreshing. Likewise closing up the windows of the house it is totally insulated and keeps you warm.

 

Standing Meditation (pile standing+stances)

-Universal Post

--Holding the Child (standing stake)

--- Golden Rooster (one leg)

 

 

Walking Meditation

-Cat Walk (stay on center line)

--Sand Stepping (shift across center line

---Animal Steps

 

Transitions to/from Sitting

-one knee

--kneeling

---cross over

---hurdlers

 

Sitting Meditation

-butterflies (hurdling pigeons)

--basic cross over (indian sitting)

---half lotus

----full lotus

 

-transitions to laying

 

 

Laying Meditation

[JohnC]

I respectfully disagree. What you are experiencing is completely normal. Zhan Zhuang shouldn't necessarily make you feel energetic - at least at this stage. In my opinion the shaking you are experiencing is caused by muscle fatigue and/or the elimination of parasitic tension. The heat is thusly a result of muscular releases which will eventually subside so as to provide you with a greater awareness of your skeletal structure.

 

Keep up the good work,

 

Matt

 

Agreed. And I've had times when I'd be practicing, then suddenly afterward feel like I needed a nap.

 

The rest of the time, afterwards feel very energized.

 

I read from ZY qigong, that this is the body cleaning itself.

 

John

[Baguakid]

Agreed. And I've had times when I'd be practicing, then suddenly afterward feel like I needed a nap.

 

The rest of the time, afterwards feel very energized.

 

I read from ZY qigong, that this is the body cleaning itself.

 

John

 

This is exactly correct. ZZ is a cleansing exercise as well as a qi building exercise.

 

Bravo!!

[Fire Dragon]

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Most of my students struggle with maintaining a relaxed 'girdle', the abs, the low-back, the glutes.. relaxing the girdle is essential in the ZZ practice, otherwise there is 'interference' between the upper body and lower body.. the interference is the result of 'resistence' in the girdle and it traps energy in the respective upper/lower regions.. this can be countered by 'sitting' on the 'quads'/femurs by firming (NOT locking) the foundation so that the pelvis hinges freely when the abs, low-back and glutes relax.. done correctly, the feeling of coherence and grounding are very tangible..

 

Be well..

[Spectrum]

Once you get your Instrument clean, it works wonders to play it to the best of your ability! A sqeeky wheel gets greese, but a used hinge never rusts. Continued training means improving your timbre your pitch your accouatics, ability to improvise, adapt to any rhythm, etc. Pile standing is akin to tuning up your instrument in a symphony... Who is blowing the pitch pipe? Life will require you to play this newly tuned instrument. In some cases the instrument quality I finer than the artist playing, and in other cases the artist plays a song in which he blends his tones in such a coorspondant unison one can not discern natural beauty from artistic interpretation. The dissolution of subject object, the merging of performer and audiance, contender and opponent, internal and external dissolve onto one.

[Encephalon]

Greetings..

 

Most of my students struggle with maintaining a relaxed 'girdle', the abs, the low-back, the glutes.. relaxing the girdle is essential in the ZZ practice, otherwise there is 'interference' between the upper body and lower body.. the interference is the result of 'resistence' in the girdle and it traps energy in the respective upper/lower regions.. this can be countered by 'sitting' on the 'quads'/femurs by firming (NOT locking) the foundation so that the pelvis hinges freely when the abs, low-back and glutes relax.. done correctly, the feeling of coherence and grounding are very tangible..

 

Be well..

 

Would you concur that the ZZ advice on the youtube tutorial below is consistent with what you have described here? Thanks in advance.

[Spectrum]

We arrived at a certain hummmm after repeated countering blockages tenseness etc w periodic contractions and relexation of the pain area in question. Head to toe body scan, down exhale toe to head up the back inhale the individual patterns of pain vary results o practice similar pain dissolved into surrounded chains of muscle groups and then longer chains of connected muscle groups activated. Then the overall obviousness of the Supportive breathing lattice . Once every extra un needed muscle is exhausted the mind gives up. It is the shortest way to self help hypnosis! Fix your problem by giving your mind the most difficult task, drop everything by doing ONE thing. It is not precisely how long you do it each time but a flow to the process and a letting go to observe natural cycles. There is a kalidascope of possible combinations of gifts any groups of people have when they are 'tuned in' to the Tao!

 

Simple exersises like pushing on a wall of a sustained period activates 'the nine pearls' ... Eveytime you sink three inches to do something you have openeings in space available that are not there when you walk upright. Isn't that funny modern humans have to squat just slightly to remember the safe way through the forest. after I stood in a corner for a number of years I went to the source of some of the teachings I had been exposed to. This Master took me on a number of walks in the forest. I did not really realize the the geometric mandalas that opened before my eyes and the effects of sustained altered consciousness on a variety of physical challenges would change the course of my life in the entirety that it has. He was happy to point out a cave behind a waterfall or sit on a branch with me while I stood on mr tree in wuji and felt it stretch it's arms in the wind, one of the deepest connections I've ever felt on a huge round rock that seemed to ossilate ever so slightly underneight as you listened for wuji on the wind of your bodies aerodynamics aling the surface of your skin.....breathing through every pore pouring out soul. From Balls to Bone.

Edited June 15, 2010 by Spectrum

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Would you concur that the ZZ advice on the youtube tutorial below is consistent with what you have described here?

Hi Blasto: No, there are several issues i disagree with in that presentation.. and, that doesn't mean 'i'm right', just that my experiences contradict some elements of the video.. feet are too wide, making the effort to 'align knees with toes' create excess tension, relating to knee issues.. the elbows are too high, trapping energy in the shoulders and traps, leading to rapid fatigue and distraction.. the weight should be 70% ball and arch of feet (Yong Quan) and 30% heel.. majority of weight in heel is static and unbalanced.. heel is a 'round ball', unsteady and without any mechanisms for fine-tuning the posture.. the 70/30 weight distribution in the foot is fully connected and fully dynamic, the YongQuan is activated by the dynamic tension and is the primary bridge to the 'ground'.. the heel is primarily a supporting 'brace', even by its structural design.. the 70/30 weight distribution in the feet (each) is the 'trigger' that 'floats' the skeleton/frame within the muscle/tissue, creating the 'tensegrity' necessary for ZZ to reveal its potential.. it is noteworthy that IF the 'spine' is perpendicular to the ground, the body mass is forward of the spine and the weight 'naturally' shifts into the ball/arch of the feet..

 

The presenter makes many good points, and i applaud his well-intended effort.. it's better than most.. the issues i describe above will find a unique balance between conventional ZZ and the state of 'Central Equilibrium', revealing the best of each.. please don't take my word for it, though.. try it yourself, be a little diligent, and when everything is properly aligned you will 'know' it by its whole body 'awareness', a sort of buzzing 'white noise' with the warmth of energy flowing into the legs, it is tangible and identifiable..

 

Be well..

[Encephalon]

Greetings..

 

 

Hi Blasto: No, there are several issues i disagree with in that presentation.. and, that doesn't mean 'i'm right', just that my experiences contradict some elements of the video.. feet are too wide, making the effort to 'align knees with toes' create excess tension, relating to knee issues.. the elbows are too high, trapping energy in the shoulders and traps, leading to rapid fatigue and distraction.. the weight should be 70% ball and arch of feet (Yong Quan) and 30% heel.. majority of weight in heel is static and unbalanced.. heel is a 'round ball', unsteady and without any mechanisms for fine-tuning the posture.. the 70/30 weight distribution in the foot is fully connected and fully dynamic, the YongQuan is activated by the dynamic tension and is the primary bridge to the 'ground'.. the heel is primarily a supporting 'brace', even by its structural design.. the 70/30 weight distribution in the feet (each) is the 'trigger' that 'floats' the skeleton/frame within the muscle/tissue, creating the 'tensegrity' necessary for ZZ to reveal its potential.. it is noteworthy that IF the 'spine' is perpendicular to the ground, the body mass is forward of the spine and the weight 'naturally' shifts into the ball/arch of the feet..

 

The presenter makes many good points, and i applaud his well-intended effort.. it's better than most.. the issues i describe above will find a unique balance between conventional ZZ and the state of 'Central Equilibrium', revealing the best of each.. please don't take my word for it, though.. try it yourself, be a little diligent, and when everything is properly aligned you will 'know' it by its whole body 'awareness', a sort of buzzing 'white noise' with the warmth of energy flowing into the legs, it is tangible and identifiable..

 

Be well..

 

Thanks for the feedback. I agree with you that it's better than most, but you're right;the magic really does begin with the feet. I only have my nei kung practice for personal reference (as taught by Master Chu @ www.chutaichi.com), and 20 minutes of "Embrace Horse." Chu nei kung is very specific; toes in, knees out, with most of the weight on the balls and outer ridges of the feet. The weight of the body is directly above the heels, to avoid bending too far forward, but it is not sinking through the heels, the way you would root downward if you were doing 200 lb deadlifts in a gym.

I'm coming up on three years of consistent nei kung practice. My MCO opened last September, and my legs have begun to awaken gradually since then. I can dissolve the gates of the legs a la Bruce Frantzis style, but don't yet have a palpable difference between anterior and posterior leg meridians, so I'm just sticking with deep bone corridors. I would be grateful if you know of any prohibitions against running the current up one leg, and down the other, through the floor, in a circular motion. I find this route intensely pleasant, but I'm aware that this is not always the best criteria for doing something.

Thanks.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I would be grateful if you know of any prohibitions against running the current up one leg, and down the other, through the floor, in a circular motion. I find this route intensely pleasant, but I'm aware that this is not always the best criteria for doing something.

None that i am aware of, but.. that is not a familiar practice for me.. I 'bounce' energy off the ground, discharging toxins and impurities at the 'bounce' and exchanging them for energy that has been 'grounded'.. the bouncing is coordinated with breath and can become physically observable.. if you feel like the energy is 'moving you', move.. resistance or denial are not productive activities in ZZ..

 

Be well..

[gendao]

I only have my nei kung practice for personal reference (as taught by Master Chu @ www.chutaichi.com), and 20 minutes of "Embrace Horse." Chu nei kung is very specific; toes in, knees out, with most of the weight on the balls and outer ridges of the feet. The weight of the body is directly above the heels, to avoid bending too far forward, but it is not sinking through the heels, the way you would root downward if you were doing 200 lb deadlifts in a gym.

I'm coming up on three years of consistent nei kung practice. My MCO opened last September, and my legs have begun to awaken gradually since then. I can dissolve the gates of the legs a la Bruce Frantzis style, but don't yet have a palpable difference between anterior and posterior leg meridians, so I'm just sticking with deep bone corridors. I would be grateful if you know of any prohibitions against running the current up one leg, and down the other, through the floor, in a circular motion. I find this route intensely pleasant, but I'm aware that this is not always the best criteria for doing something.

Funny, I've come to the same conclusions through empirical practice myself.

 

I generally like to keep the outer ridges of my feet parallel pointing straight forward/aft. This shifts the weight more towards the outsides of my feet and thighs, creating peng structure & opening my kua. (I think this is also why Wing Chun adopts a pigeon-toed stance.) My knees are directly plumb over my feet - so that when viewed from the front - my legs form more of a trapezoidal "house" shape than an A-frame. (Like riding a horse I guess...hence, the name "horse stance." )

 

Shifting weight to your yongquan (bubbling wells) seems to suck energy up...whereas shifting back on your heels seems to drain energy down back into the Earth (not sure why Chu neigong wouldn't want you to do this?). Balancing between both probably creates a cycle.

Edited June 17, 2010 by vortex

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

It is my understanding the the shoulder joints, the hip joints, the knees and the ankles should be aligned vertically when looking directly in the mirror.. this creates a structure most appropriately aligned with the pull of gravity, to reduce fatigue and to facilitate smooth energy flow.. from the side-view, the ears, shoulders, and hips should be suspended over the ankles, and the knees over the toes.. i find this to be very comfortable for an hour or more.. on the infrequent occasions i can find that much time, usually it's about 30 minutes..

 

Be well..

[Fire Dragon]

[TzuJanLi]

[ejr1069]

Shifting the discussion just a tad here.

 

I am curious what you all think about practicing the standing ZZ poses on your toes/balls of the feet. I tried this the other day and seemed to get 2 results:

 

1. I felt a stronger energy flow, espeically up my legs.

2. My calves were definitely tired after 20 minutes of standing on the toes.

 

Is standing on the ball of the foot possibly an advancement on the traditional poses? I am talking about for basic poses like Wu Chi, Holding the ball, standing in a stream,etc.

[Encephalon]

Greetings..

 

 

None that i am aware of, but.. that is not a familiar practice for me.. I 'bounce' energy off the ground, discharging toxins and impurities at the 'bounce' and exchanging them for energy that has been 'grounded'.. the bouncing is coordinated with breath and can become physically observable.. if you feel like the energy is 'moving you', move.. resistance or denial are not productive activities in ZZ..

 

Be well..

 

Could you elaborate on the "bounce" sensation a bit? Eternal Student used the same term with regard to leg energy. What is the trajectory, speed, meridian course, etc. Thanks.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Could you elaborate on the "bounce" sensation a bit? Eternal Student used the same term with regard to leg energy. What is the trajectory, speed, meridian course, etc. Thanks.

Hi Blasto: You may regret this request, but here goes.. Once you have resolved the issues with 'girdle tension', and mean really resolved, the meridians expand tremendously.. the full-body flow of energy cannot be contained within the classic/traditional mreidian lines. Imagine a river that flows wide and has several 'channels' of varying depths.. when the practitioner has established Energetic Coherence, there is a full body circulation traveling from the feet up to the crown and back down to the feet.. the extremeties, legs and arms, are deep channels.. the torso is the deepest.. the meridians are smaller channels that form 'whirlpools' (cavities and accupoints)..

 

The recent understandings of western science and eastern energy modalities are finding the Connective Tissue System (CTS) as the 'River', and the 'liquid' in this river is very unique.. the CTS has exactly the same properties of Liquid Crystals, the property of changing states instantly, based on stimulus.. imagine taking a garden-hose and turning on the water such that there is a single flowing column of water flowing out in an arc.. imagine walking through that column of flowing water, it would hit you and splash around harmlessly, but.. imagine that the flow suddenly froze into a moving arc of 'ice', it would have a much more intense impact.. the CTS is like that, fluid, flexible, elastic and.. shifting to solid and back in nano-second intervals, creating a 'tensegrity' network throughout the body..

 

The 'bounce' is this 'tensegrity' moving and rippling along the CTS with directed intention and coordinated breath-work.. the effect of this is to massage and enable the classic/Traditional meridians.. and, without 'resistance', exponentially enhanced power and awareness.. Speed?, as fast as you can shift your awareness, tensegrity manifests.. this whole process is actualized by vibrational signaling through the CTS, signaling that is 16 to 20 times faster than the Central Nervous and Neuro-muscular System.. it's the 'magic' that emerges when you are 'in the zone'..

 

Ooops.. sorry i got carried away a bit.. i'll try again, later..

 

Be well..

[Encephalon]

Greetings..

 

 

Hi Blasto: You may regret this request, but here goes.. Once you have resolved the issues with 'girdle tension', and mean really resolved, the meridians expand tremendously.. the full-body flow of energy cannot be contained within the classic/traditional mreidian lines. Imagine a river that flows wide and has several 'channels' of varying depths.. when the practitioner has established Energetic Coherence, there is a full body circulation traveling from the feet up to the crown and back down to the feet.. the extremeties, legs and arms, are deep channels.. the torso is the deepest.. the meridians are smaller channels that form 'whirlpools' (cavities and accupoints)..

 

The recent understandings of western science and eastern energy modalities are finding the Connective Tissue System (CTS) as the 'River', and the 'liquid' in this river is very unique.. the CTS has exactly the same properties of Liquid Crystals, the property of changing states instantly, based on stimulus.. imagine taking a garden-hose and turning on the water such that there is a single flowing column of water flowing out in an arc.. imagine walking through that column of flowing water, it would hit you and splash around harmlessly, but.. imagine that the flow suddenly froze into a moving arc of 'ice', it would have a much more intense impact.. the CTS is like that, fluid, flexible, elastic and.. shifting to solid and back in nano-second intervals, creating a 'tensegrity' network throughout the body..

 

The 'bounce' is this 'tensegrity' moving and rippling along the CTS with directed intention and coordinated breath-work.. the effect of this is to massage and enable the classic/Traditional meridians.. and, without 'resistance', exponentially enhanced power and awareness.. Speed?, as fast as you can shift your awareness, tensegrity manifests.. this whole process is actualized by vibrational signaling through the CTS, signaling that is 16 to 20 times faster than the Central Nervous and Neuro-muscular System.. it's the 'magic' that emerges when you are 'in the zone'..

 

Ooops.. sorry i got carried away a bit.. i'll try again, later..

 

Be well..

 

No apologies necessary... I'm a reductionist at heart, but can still experience awe. I do have oscillations between feet and crown and feel it on the outside of the arms as they go up and down, but I'm likely creating pathways that are highly nontraditional.

[WhiteTiger]

I have been practicing Master Lam Cam Chuen's "Way of Energy" Zhan Zhuang for almost 3 years now. Also practice yoga and sometimes Kunlun. My Zhan Zhuang sessions have become very intense, my whole body or various parts of my body spontaneously shake, sometimes violently. I build much heat and sweat too. Having numbness in forhead and brow frequently and am often very tired.

 

Could I be developing too much chi for my nervous system to handle? Might that explain the tiredness? I am definitely experiencing Kundalini, or at least kundalini on the rise, maybe not a full blown Kundalini experience. I feel that I am on the verge of a breakrhough in consciousness. But I struggle with the tiredness. It truly impacts my ability to focus and work.

 

I am curious if anyone else has experienced this too.

 

The ZZ I practice may be slightly different then Master Lam Cam Chuen's (even though the teacher I'm learning it from comes from the same lineage) If your studying with a teacher your ZZ at least once a week then I would say ask your teacher. If you don't have a teaher go get one.

---

Yiquan or Dachengchuan is a system not so different then the standing meditations practiced in other Buddhist sects. At least extremely fundamentally speaking. I'm sure one can find many more hundreds of thousands variations within them.

---

Once you have one I believe he would intruct you to continue with the practice as these side effects are only signs of weakness or problems in your energetic body when put under performance and with the teachers help and aid can you be sure with enough practice you can deal or over come with these issues. That is if your teacher says. It is also understood that over time these problems will go away. Over time of diligent practice. But I'm just repeating what teachers would instruct and I am not a teacher so I sugest you find one become a student and then do what they suggest. Best thing about a good teacher is if you get to know your teacher and you have a good relation with eachother.

 

Although after time if these problems don't ago away and you don't have any teachers by in worst case senario I would seek a perfessional Acupunturist, or a Traditional Chinese Doctor.

[Spectrum]

Shifting weight to your yongquan (bubbling wells) seems to suck energy up...whereas shifting back on your heels seems to drain energy down back into the Earth (not sure why Chu neigong wouldn't want you to do this?). Balancing between both probably creates a cycle.

 

Tiger and Dragon energies. Down thru heels up through bubbling wells. It is miraculous you feel this. It is a good sign!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Tiger and Dragon energies. Down thru heels up through bubbling wells. It is miraculous you feel this. It is a good sign!

Cool, it's not often we can get to the details.. the 70/30, YongQuan/heel ratio respects the balance of energies lost through BaiHui, LaoGong, and HuiYin, which have no direct connection to the Earth for locally replenishing the losses.. HuiYin substitutes for YongQuan in sitting meditations..

 

Be well..