Zhan zhuang

[Creation]

Wang li ping

Jenny lamb

John Chang

Grandmaster Zhang - from http://www.qigongmaster.com/index.htm

Robert Peng

Sifu Jiang? - who is this, I've heard about him but don't know any info....

Ming Tang from zyqigong

Hi JohnC.

 

Jiang's primary claim to fame around here, like Chang and Peng, is his (alleged) ability to produce an electric current from his body. He is one of David Verdesi's teachers.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Creation

[styrofoamdog]

I seem to get the impression that China is full of huge amounts of alchemical systems that are widely different such as mopai and maoshan stuff. It seems to me there are so many very, very different systems while the yoga systems seem me to be all the same basically. So it seems strange to me that Daosim would not have plenty of good alchemical systems with realized masters. Not sure it is one way or the other just an impression I get.

 

This is the impression given from modern literature, but it is very far from the truth.

 

Mopai is an oddity, and not really a Daoist system per se. It's more a meditation (or samadhi) system that borrows some ideas from Chinese culture, and wraps itself in lofty names (Mozi, Bodhidharma, Zhang Sanfeng) to keep its system alive. It's like the billion gongfu systems out there that can be traced back to either Bodhidharma, Yue Fei, or Zhang Sanfeng. In reality probably none of them have any link to those people, but that's how they are kept alive. It doesn't mean that Mo Pai is not something real, but just that it isn't Daoism.

 

Maoshan and other systems are still kept alive somewhat, but usually the people who practice them have only a basic understanding, and are transmitting forms only. It's like all the people prancing around playing Taijiquan, who have no actual internal skill whatsoever. A real master is difficult to find, and Taijiquan is something popular. Now, how about Daoism which is unpopular in China and just viewed as superstitious folk culture? Finding a real accomplished master is truly, truly rare.

 

As for the alchemical systems described in all the classics, most people just find them to be cryptic and can't penetrate their language. Everyone talks about yin and yang, fire and water, and circulating qi, but it's just talk. They can move a little qi around or they feel like their dantian is full, but so what? That's not the Dao or the real alchemy of ancient times. The alchemical classics were written to keep their secrets from the unwashed masses who did not have initiation into the meaning of the various terms. Additionally, these come from different systems, yet none of them are differentiated when people try to understand them. Texts from different schools, describing different practices, and different stages are all lumped together. Even those who publish books about it like Yang Jwingming have no true understanding of their contents. Anyone who has read enough books on Daoism will know that their authors are just parroting past rhetoric and playing with these ideas to try to reconstruct a hodgepodge of something real.

 

What most of the people on this board are talking about are Qigong systems largely invented in modern times -- not Daoism.

 

Yoga largely refers to systems focused on meditation, as practiced in India. There is Hindu Yoga and Buddhist Yoga, and within these, there are many different systems with various paradigms. These systems were well documented from ancient times, so there are still many masters who can develop samadhi and who have real ability. Not only are the practices well established and plainly taught, but theory and practice complement each other well.

[Gerard]

...Anyone who has read enough books on Daoism will know that their authors are just parroting past rhetoric and playing with these ideas to try to reconstruct a hodgepodge of something real.

 

You got the idea.

 

And same happens with Buddhist practice. When you attend a proper retreat the only thing you are required to do in order to gain access to the ultimate reality is TO DO. Plain and simple, no books, no talks, only discussing with your teacher your daily progress. This explains why few people finish 3 weeks in silence and go on with successive retreats. But folks, let me tell you: it works and what you gain in this sort environment is invaluable.

[enouch]

This is the impression given from modern literature, but it is very far from the truth.

 

Mopai is an oddity, and not really a Daoist system per se. It's more a meditation (or samadhi) system that borrows some ideas from Chinese culture, and wraps itself in lofty names (Mozi, Bodhidharma, Zhang Sanfeng) to keep its system alive. It's like the billion gongfu systems out there that can be traced back to either Bodhidharma, Yue Fei, or Zhang Sanfeng. In reality probably none of them have any link to those people, but that's how they are kept alive. It doesn't mean that Mo Pai is not something real, but just that it isn't Daoism.

 

Maoshan and other systems are still kept alive somewhat, but usually the people who practice them have only a basic understanding, and are transmitting forms only. It's like all the people prancing around playing Taijiquan, who have no actual internal skill whatsoever. A real master is difficult to find, and Taijiquan is something popular. Now, how about Daoism which is unpopular in China and just viewed as superstitious folk culture? Finding a real accomplished master is truly, truly rare.

 

As for the alchemical systems described in all the classics, most people just find them to be cryptic and can't penetrate their language. Everyone talks about yin and yang, fire and water, and circulating qi, but it's just talk. They can move a little qi around or they feel like their dantian is full, but so what? That's not the Dao or the real alchemy of ancient times. The alchemical classics were written to keep their secrets from the unwashed masses who did not have initiation into the meaning of the various terms. Additionally, these come from different systems, yet none of them are differentiated when people try to understand them. Texts from different schools, describing different practices, and different stages are all lumped together. Even those who publish books about it like Yang Jwingming have no true understanding of their contents. Anyone who has read enough books on Daoism will know that their authors are just parroting past rhetoric and playing with these ideas to try to reconstruct a hodgepodge of something real.

 

What most of the people on this board are talking about are Qigong systems largely invented in modern times -- not Daoism.

 

Yoga largely refers to systems focused on meditation, as practiced in India. There is Hindu Yoga and Buddhist Yoga, and within these, there are many different systems with various paradigms. These systems were well documented from ancient times, so there are still many masters who can develop samadhi and who have real ability. Not only are the practices well established and plainly taught, but theory and practice complement each other well.

 

 

 

The Indian systems are great...but I wonder how many of the present day masters[just like Taoism]have attained real siddhis.Plus a lot of the Indian systems require you to accept the names of various gods while the Chinese systems seem to be built around natural forces,similar to terms you might find in a biology book.I'm sure there are real masters like Prahlad Jani or Swami Rama but they are well hidden. I still debate within myself about which is better...neigong or yoga? I guess it depends on your outcome. I totally enjoy the intellectualism of raja yoga but I enjoy the experiential nature of neigong.Which is why I also enjoy some techniqes from kriya yoga.

[Gerard]

...I still debate within myself about which is better...neigong or yoga? I guess it depends on your outcome. I totally enjoy the intellectualism of raja yoga but I enjoy the experiential nature of neigong.Which is why I also enjoy some techniqes from kriya yoga.

 

Well let me give you my humble opinion on the matter. Then it's entirely up to you to decide which system you should follow.

 

My personal experience on this issue is:

 

1. Taoist practices focusing on cultivating man as a multidimensional being placed between two dimensions: heaven (crown chakra) and earth (lower chakras). Cultivation is done in such way that both ends are emphasized at the same time. Balance is kept and no major issues are encountered. Only pains resulting from blocked meridians and polluted organs plus karmic issues which are slowly worked upon.

 

2. Buddhist practice around Satipatthana Vipassana Kammatthana (Theravada according to the Thai system). Similarly heaven and earth are worked upon using the four foundations of mindfulness which are:

 

1. Mindfulness of the body,

2. Mindfulness of feelings,

3. Mindfulness of the mind, and

4. Mindfulness of the mind objects

 

Both sitting (heaven) and walking meditations (earth) are practiced at a ratio of 1:1. Balance is also kept but heavy underlying issues can be painful to deal with as they are quickly released since intense daily meditation is a mandatory requirement of the system. Not many can stick to a full silent retreat.

 

3. Indian systems. I am sorry, but I don't have experience with them but from what I have seen immobile practice is actively practiced; hence "earth" is dismissed in favour of the "heavenly" component.

 

I hope this helps.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

When you ZZ becomes 'comfortable', try standing on bricks stood 'on end'.. Dr. Yang teaches this advanced practice, and i highly recommend it.. it enhances Awareness by challenging it.. then, when you feel really adventurous, stand two bricks end on end for each foot.. or, set up your Bagua Circle with bricks on end.. everything changes.. and, get lots of Dit Da Jow for the ankles

 

Be well..

[RiverSnake]

Greetings..

 

When you ZZ becomes 'comfortable', try standing on bricks stood 'on end'.. Dr. Yang teaches this advanced practice, and i highly recommend it.. it enhances Awareness by challenging it.. then, when you feel really adventurous, stand two bricks end on end for each foot.. or, set up your Bagua Circle with bricks on end.. everything changes.. and, get lots of Dit Da Jow for the ankles

 

Be well..

 

Sounds like an interesting exercise to try in the future. But what you mean by bricks stood on end?

Edited June 9, 2010 by Tao Apprentice

[adept]

Sounds like an interesting exercise to try in the future. But what you mean by bricks stood on end?

This awesome clip could point you in the right direction.

[adept]

[Baguakid]

Greetings..

 

When you ZZ becomes 'comfortable', try standing on bricks stood 'on end'.. Dr. Yang teaches this advanced practice, and i highly recommend it.. it enhances Awareness by challenging it.. then, when you feel really adventurous, stand two bricks end on end for each foot.. or, set up your Bagua Circle with bricks on end.. everything changes.. and, get lots of Dit Da Jow for the ankles

 

Be well..

 

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to deviate from Bob on this one. First off, I'm not a fan of Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, I have seen little from his teachings/books or even talking to him personally that flips my fiddle. But that's me, sorry.

 

Real Bagua is extremely difficult to do correctly. The movie clip does not show realistic practice in my opinion, it's a movie that's showing an exotic practice. There are theories and practices that need to be understood and adhered to to be successful. Walking on bricks (IMO) is unnecessary and is in fact destracting from the real practice.

 

Zhan Zhuang is a simple practice with profound results, Bagua ZZ is more complex and much more demanding. Bagua Circle walking is even much more difficult than Bagua ZZ.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Baguakid

[WhiteTiger]

Not that I'm an expert or a teacher on the subject but granted a few teachers I know on the subject and the recommendation is generally Taoist Practice, is quite practical. It is not spoken about but rather done. It is through the doing that makes it Taoist. To understnad makes it philosophical. Which both have its strengths and purposes. ZZ meditation is a important foundation.

 

As a Taoist Practice I would suggest, to practice ZZ meds instead of talking about it. In fact I would suggest to do it before you know lots about it. Although I say that suggestion, it doesn't hurt to understand stuff about ZZ but it is simple, and although you could waste lots of words to describe something so simple and easy you could also right few words to explain something so simple and easy.

 

Side note: I will have to make some time to read this whole thread but I got some work to be doing currently.

 

Wt

Edited June 9, 2010 by WhiteTiger

[Gerard]

...Bagua Circle walking is even much more difficult than Bagua ZZ.

 

Bagua circle walking is easy if you do it following the majority of the vids found on YT. If you do it properly, oh boy! that's a totally different story. It takes years of practice to perform the "hook" and "swing" steps correctly and even in this instance mistakes can be made.

 

But hey let's maintain the flow of this thread as we are deviating from the main thing.

 

There are many ways of performing ZZ but IMO the most important thing is achieving 100% relaxation rather than holding "fancy" postures.

Edited June 10, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[Mal]

Very nice discussion on zhan zhuang, lots of references. http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/wuji.htm

 

"Entering the Heart of Trees" very nice

[Old Man Contradiction]

Most people don't really know what standing is.

 

"It's standing with correct posture, relaxed, and focused right?"

"It is good for internal energy movement and relaxation"

 

These types of statements show the simple fact that most people just don't know how far standing can go. If you are just standing there relaxed, you are missing everything.

 

The only thing somebody can do to take ZZ to it's farthest potential is to find a really really good teacher. The kind of teacher that makes you burn and pushes you beyond what you thought were your limits. How can you do everything, without moving? Definitely not just standing there doing nothing but relaxing.

[Aetherous]

most people just don't know how far standing can go

 

How far has it gone for you?

[sifusufi]

"Entering the Heart of Trees" very nice

 

http://www.amazon.com/Tree-Yoga-Workbook-Strengthen-Personal/dp/1844091198

[sifusufi]

How far has it gone for you?

 

It took me to Austin Tx, but that's another story.

Really, the mojo and confidence I received or gained if you will still frightens me to a degree.

Restraint has not been a strong point for me. Well I am more mature now. (I think?)

[Ya Mu]

The earliest mention of "Zhan Zhuang" is in relation to Gongfu training in Xingyiquan, taught to Wang Xiangzhai by Guo Yunshen, and then taught to a number of different people who propagated it after that. In its original form it was very, very simple. Wang Xiangzhai and his students expanded the number of postures and the variety of different practices. It's basically a secular product of the 19th-20th centuries, though. Any history before that is undocumented.

 

There are many such practices that were invented during the 20th century when "Qigong" became big as a result of Communist persecution of Chinese religion. Spiritual or religious practices were banned, but Qigong was something "for health," secular and physical. Then everyone wore silk pajamas, invented new Qigong systems, and assumed that they represented the height and depth of Chinese civilization. The real history was obfuscated, so now people scrounge around the Daodejing to try to find secret Qigong methods in it, assuming that everything is about circulating Qi around, and Qigong. There are also innumerable New Age ideas surrounding it in the West, to the point where any semblance of actual Daoist practice is drowned out by the noise of modernity.

 

Daoist practice historically usually revolved around silence and emptiness to attain the Dao (Laozi), internal alchemy (Quanzhen), external alchemy (Fangshi in ancient China), or various visualization practices to move or transmit qi from the environment. There are also some other methods such as casting spells, akin to mantras in Buddhism. A lot of it was no doubt adopted from Buddhism and Indian yogis who also had many of the same practices. For example, the lotus position was adopted from India, and ultimately from ancient yoga.

 

Daoism in practice is basically something that is dead, though. It's all "Qigong masters" claiming to have Daoist heritage, or people being hoodwinked at temples. But try to find a real spiritual master who has some attainment of the Dao. It's practically unheard of. People can try to reinvent it all they want, but there are so many modern ideas that inevitably creep into peoples' understanding of it, that it's almost pointless. If people took the Daodejing and the Qingjing Jing, and perhaps some other ancient texts as the basis and studied only these, they would be on the right path. As it is, though, the real masters today are primarily in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Yoga.

What most of the people on this board are talking about are Qigong systems largely invented in modern times -- not Daoism.

I agree that most of the energetics talked about here are qigong and not Taoism.

And you surely do make some excellent points.

But be aware that authentic Taoist energetic methods are definitely represented here. Read my thread on "Taoist Medicine" if you want to know more about one of them. Taoism in practice it is.

[Ya Mu]

...

Try standing in San Ti while adhering to the six harmonies for anything over 6-7 minutes per side and you'll see what I mean. ...

+++

[styrofoamdog]

[Ya Mu]

Yes, but Daoist energy methods of spinning or circulation are a far cry from a spiritual path, or accomplishment of the Dao. Before the modern era, qi was just one little element spoken of in the Daoist classics. In the classical period, it was rarely talked about because those things would have been too low level. In the Zhuangzi, we see instructions for moving qi up and down the governor vessel to maintain health. However, it is specifically stated that this is to keep the body healthy. Zhuangzi would never talk about qi as the way to attain the Dao, and needless to say, Laozi eschewed that physical approach even more.

 

The real teachings of Laozi are closer to those of Ramana Maharshi. That is, a teaching expounded primarily through silence, and with everything else emanating naturally from this. Daoism has nothing close to these higher methods today, because it's wrapped up in attachment to material matters such as the body and qi. If you want to read about the real teachings of Daoism, this has been the most central Daoist text since the classical period, the Classic of Purity and Stillness. All the major schools respected this, the Quanzhen school especially:

 

You still don't understand. What I am referring to IS a complete path and actually has little to do with "moving qi up and down the governing vessel." The Taoist system does use complete silence so that nothing is left undone.

 

Daoism has nothing close to these higher methods today, because it's wrapped up in attachment to material matters such as the body and qi.

Right in most cases as the real methods were hidden, lost or wrapped up and concealed. But wrong in this case. If you want to learn a true High Level Taoist method instead of reading meaningless words you are welcome to do so.

Taoist is not about talk or reading ill-translated verses - it is about being and doing within that being. Higher Level approach, teachings from the ascended masters, little concern with body and much concern with the Higher Level immortal self as it relates and is to the universe; all these things are part of the system.

[Mattimo]

I find that I resonate strongly with the practice of zhan zhuang. The mind has a tendency to complicate things but there is something so fundamentally basic and yet profound about zhan zhuang, that warrants further study. How many people are truly aware that structurally, the skeleton is designed to counteract gravitational forces so as to provide one with the feeling of being completely weightless? It is parasitic tension, resulting from life in general, that pulls the skeleton this way and that way making it difficult to perceive this weightless quality. All this nonsense about people debating which technique is best, spinning your qi a certain way, seems very abstract/not concrete. But here we have a practice such as zhan zhuang, where all you do is stand, so as to directly become aware of your skeletal support and let go of all your excess tension. Seems like a pretty good place to start. No, you're not going to damage yourself if you stand for more than 10 minutes. Don't endow practices with magical qualities and hold them above or outside yourself. You are the driver in the vehicle of your body and you know what's best; so do what's best for you.

 

In my opinion,

 

Matt

[adept]

where all you do is stand

 

If only it was that easy.

[gendao]

Taoist is not about talk or reading ill-translated verses - it is about being and doing within that being.

If you study a topic as a class...after 20 years you'll have multiple degrees & a LOT of knowledge to show for it.

If you experiment with a topic in a lab...after 20 years you may no more degrees, but may have actually produced something.

 

The same thing holds true for Taoism.

Classroom study results in academic knowledge.

Labwork results in tangible results.

 

A combination of both can be good too - but if you omit labwork, you are omitting any actual results...

 

 

Zhan zhuang is simple, but takes a long time to perfect, if ever. I've been doing it daily for many months now, and only within the past week noticed that my right knee was forward of my left one. And this was due to the top of my right pelvis tilting forward as the bottom tilted back (a problem I already knew I had, but hadn't noticed its effect here yet). Thus also shifting my center slightly to my right. So, it takes a lot of time to recognize & unwind our ingrained bad habits and attain a truly symmetrical, neutral pose...just for starters. Unlearn, forget, allow, remember...

[Baguakid]

If only it was that easy.

 

It IS that easy.