Evil Warlord/Neigung

[fizix]

Electric chi, your resorting to a challenge of some sort of Taoist trivia only shows your actual ignorance and incompetency on the Path; nothing more needs to be said about you. Put the books and ego down, go meditate.

[goldisheavy]

So heres my question if such accelered training is possible then why does john chang not have a level 4 student? even though some of them have been training for years.

 

It's possible that a lot more depends on the student than on the teacher. Thus, a poor student with a great teacher can achieve moderate results, at best. But a great student, even without a teacher, can achieve great results. What matters is how perceptive you are, how able and ready to learn you are, and how dedicated, consistent, sincere and honest you are. By sincere I mean you have a true wish to learn, and by honest I mean you are unwilling to lie to yourself to hurry things along.

 

If you are destined to reach spiritual greatness, you'll reach it, teacher or no teacher. It's like saying that when you are destined to walk a mile, you'll walk a mile clothed or naked.

 

EDIT: oops, looks like I quoted the wrong paragraph from electric chi. I've fixed that. My reply should have better context now.

Edited June 13, 2010 by goldisheavy

[mjjbecker]

It's possible that a lot more depends on the student than on the teacher. Thus, a poor student with a great teacher can achieve moderate results, at best. But a great student, even without a teacher, can achieve great results. What matters is how perceptive you are, how able and ready to learn you are, and how dedicated, consistent, sincere and honest you are. By sincere I mean you have a true wish to learn, and by honest I mean you are unwilling to lie to yourself to hurry things along.

 

If you are destined to reach spiritual greatness, you'll reach it, teacher or no teacher. It's like saying that when you are destined to walk a mile, you'll walk a mile clothed or naked.

 

I am inclined to agree with all of this. The destined part applies to 'finding' the right teacher also though surely, if a student is destined to have a teacher? There is no 'one way'.

[mjjbecker]

Eunoch,

 

What I wrote was not based on speculation, but on direct communication with Kostas, the author of said book, and from direct experience. It is also based on things said by John Chang that I heard in person, not relayed second hand. Of course you are entitled to your opinions on various things, and I respect that. I would say my experience would tally with some, but not with others. There is no point in repeating things over and over.

 

However, you cite a lot of conjecture, and have forgotten even some of what that claimed (the student who made quick progress-it was level 3, not level 4). As far as I am aware, I am the only student of Kostas who has commented much on forums. Sean Denty has gotten most of his information from David Verdesi, and as far as I am aware, only had a passing aqaintance with Kostas. I believe SD is sincere in his search, along with many others, so this is no criticism of him.

 

Much of what has been said about the Mo pai training is either wrong, and/or based on insufficient information.

 

Yes, there is some good information out there in public. It is for people to find what works for them and to go from there.

[enouch]

Eunoch,

 

What I wrote was not based on speculation, but on direct communication with Kostas, the author of said book, and from direct experience. It is also based on things said by John Chang that I heard in person, not relayed second hand. Of course you are entitled to your opinions on various things, and I respect that. I would say my experience would tally with some, but not with others. There is no point in repeating things over and over.

 

However, you cite a lot of conjecture, and have forgotten even some of what that claimed (the student who made quick progress-it was level 3, not level 4). As far as I am aware, I am the only student of Kostas who has commented much on forums. Sean Denty has gotten most of his information from David Verdesi, and as far as I am aware, only had a passing aqaintance with Kostas. I believe SD is sincere in his search, along with many others, so this is no criticism of him.

 

Much of what has been said about the Mo pai training is either wrong, and/or based on insufficient information.

 

Yes, there is some good information out there in public. It is for people to find what works for them and to go from there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sean Denty adamantly claims he was a student of Kostas and Victor Hooten. Not only that but he was also shown up to level two. He claims Kostas took great care in getting stories accurate [not talking about secret mo pai methods]even at great risk to his professional reputation. Be that as it may...I don't have a dog in this fight,so I don't really care.Our paths emerge as we walk them and we each have to find our own truth in our own time. Put in enough work,time and effort with a sincere mind and the universe will reward you.There are many ways of scaling a mountain.

 

Oh, the bit about it being dangerous to society comes from the John Chang first westerner student post in the lobby forum. You mentioned even at level two the chi is dangerous and can spill over causing heart failure. In fact, that this happen with Kostas but fortunately Chang was around to help. This was your way of dissuading Mwright from pursing that path. IT is one of the few old posts you haven't deleted. There are other mo pai students who have posted about Kostas and many mysterious things. Secrets are secrets for a reason though...right?

[goldisheavy]

Leave the man be.

 

It's like asking a hungry dog to leave the tasty bone be. I agree with you that people should leave Jong Chang be, and stop harassing him or his spirit, if you like. At the same time, people are hungry, and they've heard John Chang has good mashed potatoes and steak and all that other good stuff. What's the solution?

 

It is my humble opinion that this hunger cannot be eliminated. Thus only one option remains. The information on how to self-feed has to be released. So you see, this entire "closed door" business is hurting more than helping. If you really intend to keep secrets, you cannot let even your wife or child know. Never mind someone like Kostas or anyone else. Now the cat's out of the bag. Now that even one single person knows besides the originator of secrets, it's not a secret anymore. The correct term for this is "restricted knowledge" and not "secret." Wielders of openly known about, yet restricted knowledge face dire consequences if they continue to deny people the right to know. And with spiritual teachings, much more than with any other kind, I do think people have an inborn inalienable right to know. As you said in one of your posts, no one, not even an immortal, can escape the consequences of their actions. That's apropos.

 

If people are taught what they want to know and they are told they don't need a teacher, they'll stop the harassment. At the same time, if you tell people what they need to know, but castrate that knowledge giving a suggestion of inherent inadequacy by saying, "Oh, but even though we described everything here, you still need a teacher," then harassment will of course intensify compared to what it is now. So to lower the level of harassment, it's essential to fulfill two conditions and not just one:

 

1. Release satisfactory information (it doesn't have to be complete, but it has to be satisfactory, it has to put out the hunger).

 

2. Give people a strong and sincere suggestion of self-sufficiency right along with the rest of instructions.

 

Of course John Chang can't give such suggestion in a sincere manner if he doesn't believe men are capable of self-sufficiency. So it's not just your actions that have consequences. It's your beliefs too. Perhaps beliefs have vastly more consequences than actions.

 

There is an unrealistic option of hoping the spiritual hunger will simply go away with time. Good luck with that, if that's what you think.

 

People have been bred for hundreds of years to rely on and in some cased to even submit to their teachers. This has consequences. Oh and if you have a secret that even one more person knows, it's not a secret anymore. It is restricted knowledge at best.

 

I am against secrets and restrictions on knowledge, but this post is already too long to explain why I am against.

Edited June 13, 2010 by goldisheavy

[mjjbecker]

Whatever.

[mjjbecker]

It's like asking a hungry dog to leave the tasty bone be. I agree with you that people should leave Jong Chang be, and stop harassing him or his spirit, if you like. At the same time, people are hungry, and they've heard John Chang has good mashed potatoes and steak and all that other good stuff. What's the solution?

 

It is my humble opinion that this hunger cannot be eliminated. Thus only one option remains. The information on how to self-feed has to be released. So you see, this entire "closed door" business is hurting more than helping. If you really intend to keep secrets, you cannot let even your wife or child know. Never mind someone like Kostas or anyone else. Now the cat's out of the bag. Now that even one single person knows besides the originator of secrets, it's not a secret anymore. The correct term for this is "restricted knowledge" and not "secret." Wielders of openly known about, yet restricted knowledge face dire consequences if they continue to deny people the right to know. And with spiritual teachings, much more than with any other kind, I do think people have an inborn inalienable right to know. As you said in one of your posts, no one, not even an immortal, can escape the consequences of their actions. That's apropos.

 

If people are taught what they want to know and they are told they don't need a teacher, they'll stop the harassment. At the same time, if you tell people what they need to know, but castrate that knowledge giving a suggestion of inherent inadequacy by saying, "Oh, but even though we described everything here, you still need a teacher," then harassment will of course intensify compared to what it is now. So to lower the level of harassment, it's essential to fulfill two conditions and not just one:

 

1. Release satisfactory information (it doesn't have to be complete, but it has to be satisfactory, it has to put out the hunger).

 

2. Give people a strong and sincere suggestion of self-sufficiency right along with the rest of instructions.

 

Of course John Chang can't give such suggestion in a sincere manner if he doesn't believe men are capable of self-sufficiency. So it's not just your actions that have consequences. It's your beliefs too. Perhaps beliefs have vastly more consequences than actions.

 

There is an unrealistic option of hoping the spiritual hunger will simply go away with time. Good luck with that, if that's what you think.

 

People have been bred for hundreds of years to rely on and in some cased to even submit to their teachers. This has consequences. Oh and if you have a secret that even one more person knows, it's not a secret anymore. It is restricted knowledge at best.

 

I am against secrets and restrictions on knowledge, but this post is already too long to explain why I am against.

 

It's not, and never was my call. I think John Chang wanted to teach more openly but was overruled. People can fixate on this issue all they want, but it isn't going to change it.

 

As mentioned before, there are good schools, taught openly. I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are Thai monks who can do things that John Chang cannot. Wang Liping is doing public seminars. The information-for spiritual seekers-is out there. It is down to them to choose.

[enouch]

It's not, and never was my call. I think John Chang wanted to teach more openly but was overruled. People can fixate on this issue all they want, but it isn't going to change it.

 

As mentioned before, there are good schools, taught openly. I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are Thai monks who can do things that John Chang cannot. Wang Liping is doing public seminars. The information-for spiritual seekers-is out there. It is down to them to choose.

 

 

 

Well since we have your attention from on high, how about a quick question?You promised the taobums when you first started teaching in China you would inquire into Wang Liping and report back if you found him genuine. I take it your steering us in that direction is a nod of[you know, avoiding conjecture] approval? Yes, you did mention meditation masters in Thailand who can do things similar to Chang. I've said thank you before for that and will do so again,thank you.

 

Some say[those among us who speak Chinese] the teachings of Wang offered to the west aren't the deeper teachings[of his] offered on even on the Chinese net.Not to offend anyone,I guess it behooves students to really learn Chinese.

Edited June 13, 2010 by enouch

[mjjbecker]

When you talk about the Mo pai, it is an intellectal exercise-you have no experience. You comment on what you've read and what you think. When I do so, I am talking about my life and my personal experiences. The significant word here is 'personal'. It is an eggs and ham situation-the chicken being involved, the pig committed. You weren't there, you weren't even involved; you are simply curious whereas I was committed. You can't discuss this on an 'equal' basis with me because you weren't there and have no experience of the school. It has nothing to do with bragging rights or talking from 'on high'. It has everything to do with deeply personal experiences, some of which are private, regardless of public curiosity.

 

I've had a little communication with some who've met and trained with WLP, and they certainly seem happy about that. Several people here on this forum have met him and posted their opinions. Given that, ask them, rather than me. When I made my comment, WLP was not teaching openly, nor inviting foreigners to come to the open public seminars. That has happened, so there hardly seemed any point in my commenting-others have already done so.

My 'advice', FWIW, is this. Go where you feel compelled to go. I personally would consider the following, which does not include WLP (no slight in his direction, simply personal choice).

 

If your quest is spiritual and you want to travel, then the monks of Myanmar and Thailand.

 

If you want to stay in the US of A, go see Michael Lomax or Santiago Dobles. Michael teaches an authentic method. The sufi way is second to non.

[enouch]

When you talk about the Mo pai, it is an intellectal exercise-you have no experience. You comment on what you've read and what you think. When I do so, I am talking about my life and my personal experiences. The significant word here is 'personal'. It is an eggs and ham situation-the chicken being involved, the pig committed. You weren't there, you weren't even involved; you are simply curious whereas I was committed. You can't discuss this on an 'equal' basis with me because you weren't there and have no experience of the school. It has nothing to do with bragging rights or talking from 'on high'. It has everything to do with deeply personal experiences, some of which are private, regardless of public curiosity.

 

I've had a little communication with some who've met and trained with WLP, and they certainly seem happy about that. Several people here on this forum have met him and posted their opinions. Given that, ask them, rather than me. When I made my comment, WLP was not teaching openly, nor inviting foreigners to come to the open public seminars. That has happened, so there hardly seemed any point in my commenting-others have already done so.

My 'advice', FWIW, is this. Go where you feel compelled to go. I personally would consider the following, which does not include WLP (no slight in his direction, simply personal choice).

 

If your quest is spiritual and you want to travel, then the monks of Myanmar and Thailand.

 

If you want to stay in the US of A, go see Michael Lomax or Santiago Dobles. Michael teaches an authentic method. The sufi way is second to non.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When you talk about the Mo pai, it is an intellectal exercise-you have no experience. You comment on what you've read and what you think.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No you are correct I can't discuss matters you 'were' privy too on an equal basis. I can say I've met several mo pai disciples [who are current]and they have had much to say and only wish not to discuss it in public. The on high comment was in respect for all your years of effort,not as a slight.And yes I comment on what I've read and think...it is very human.

[ralis]

It's like asking a hungry dog to leave the tasty bone be. I agree with you that people should leave Jong Chang be, and stop harassing him or his spirit, if you like. At the same time, people are hungry, and they've heard John Chang has good mashed potatoes and steak and all that other good stuff. What's the solution?

 

It is my humble opinion that this hunger cannot be eliminated. Thus only one option remains. The information on how to self-feed has to be released. So you see, this entire "closed door" business is hurting more than helping. If you really intend to keep secrets, you cannot let even your wife or child know. Never mind someone like Kostas or anyone else. Now the cat's out of the bag. Now that even one single person knows besides the originator of secrets, it's not a secret anymore. The correct term for this is "restricted knowledge" and not "secret." Wielders of openly known about, yet restricted knowledge face dire consequences if they continue to deny people the right to know. And with spiritual teachings, much more than with any other kind, I do think people have an inborn inalienable right to know. As you said in one of your posts, no one, not even an immortal, can escape the consequences of their actions. That's apropos.

 

If people are taught what they want to know and they are told they don't need a teacher, they'll stop the harassment. At the same time, if you tell people what they need to know, but castrate that knowledge giving a suggestion of inherent inadequacy by saying, "Oh, but even though we described everything here, you still need a teacher," then harassment will of course intensify compared to what it is now. So to lower the level of harassment, it's essential to fulfill two conditions and not just one:

 

1. Release satisfactory information (it doesn't have to be complete, but it has to be satisfactory, it has to put out the hunger).

 

2. Give people a strong and sincere suggestion of self-sufficiency right along with the rest of instructions.

 

Of course John Chang can't give such suggestion in a sincere manner if he doesn't believe men are capable of self-sufficiency. So it's not just your actions that have consequences. It's your beliefs too. Perhaps beliefs have vastly more consequences than actions.

 

There is an unrealistic option of hoping the spiritual hunger will simply go away with time. Good luck with that, if that's what you think.

 

People have been bred for hundreds of years to rely on and in some cased to even submit to their teachers. This has consequences. Oh and if you have a secret that even one more person knows, it's not a secret anymore. It is restricted knowledge at best.

 

I am against secrets and restrictions on knowledge, but this post is already too long to explain why I am against.

 

 

I completely agree! This is why I left the Tibetan Buddhist scene. Actually, Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism but, Lamaism. Dogma is disseminated by the priests with a few crumbs along the way to keep the followers brainwashed.

 

Your insight is greatly appreciated!

 

 

ralis

[electric chi magnet]

well the question i have is this.

 

1. being a taoist first and then hearing about the mo pai a question comes to mind is, "I wonder how i stack up to the mo pai and on what level?"

 

2. if the mo pai either directly or by implication is saying they have the true alchemy. Then a question pops in my mind like every other sincere taoist is "whats missing from my practice?"

 

personally i believe that answers to alchemy is much much more important than details of the mo pai specifically. but i do believe that the mo pai can help and point in the right direction for the taoist community at large in what is correct and what is wrong as far as taoist alchemical theory. With this i believe could help end the hunger for mo pai and put seekers on the right path.

[Spirit Ape]

Mo Pai level 1 is nothing new seated meditation reverse breathing, long and slow mind on dan tian this is in all meditation in my arts, level 2 dynamic tension and breath retention is nothing new its found in both shaolin and daoist methods, most people just not aware of what its doing.

 

Until you can better your health through the methods you wont be attaining any abilities IMHO! All these meditations and methods transform the body on different levels, it might take people longer than others depending on there health, there intent.

 

Funny how people are still fantasising about stories....

 

Ape

[That Guy]

Mo Pai level 1 is nothing new seated meditation reverse breathing, long and slow mind on dan tian this is in all meditation in my arts, level 2 dynamic tension and breath retention is nothing new its found in both shaolin and daoist methods, most people just not aware of what its doing.

 

Until you can better your health through the methods you wont be attaining any abilities IMHO! All these meditations and methods transform the body on different levels, it might take people longer than others depending on there health, there intent.

 

Funny how people are still fantasising about stories....

 

Ape

Got a source on that info Ape? Dont have to name them if you're not meant to, but just let us know what the source is (mo pai student, friend of a student etc)

 

And these exercises are well known, but anyone got the best website or post that explains how to do them best?

[Spirit Ape]

No websites I know of but most Taoist or Shaolin systems are based off Dan Tian. Many systems use hard and soft methods with force and no force to gather the energy in the Dan Tian. You gotta have a balance of both, but you have to be consistent and honest I cant remember who posted on this thread im to busy to re-read the whole lot but he was right about being honest and sincere dont lie to yourself and want a new level when you know you haven't achieved the previous level.

 

Here is a saying in my art of Taoist internal of Hun Yuan Yi Qi Zhang secret transmissions -" When you understand energy you become a supernatural "Immortal" being". And "To comprehend Yin and Yang is to completely understand Hard and soft".

 

The methods are easy and attainable but people get bored and give up cause there is sometimes 1 movement or 2 movements that repeat and people feel they want MORE, MORE AND MORE, when in fact less is more!

 

Todays kung fu, chi kung have lost a lot of these methods due to the long hours one needs to practice, some prefer the fighting and lost the most important element behind there power which is cultivation of chi together with kung fu. I hear even John Chang was a Shaolin student at one stage, and like myself Shaolin is alot of Horse stances and standing practice which is hard and long. By the way (that is a key I just gave you).

 

Hope that helps?

 

Ape

[That Guy]

[Spirit Ape]

That Guy,

 

G'day, cant tell you the source but I wrote the details only because people are making a fuss over Mo Pai levels 1,2 and when I found out I wasnt surprised but I can say that the order if obvious. When you have done Chinese Kung Fu for 30yrs things become a little brighter, if you think hard you can see a pattern. For example learn to breath properly (meditation) learnt to guide chi, learn stillness this is part of any Daoist or Shaolin tradition. Then you learn to develop body and stances, posture and then walking the horse. Each system develops the stance slightly different but the idea is or should be the same which is developing a strong mind! Not many do the Horse stance in kung fu these days cause the pain and suffering it gives. Most people rather would do push ups, iron palm, spar, kung fu forms cause stances hurt more and destroy your mind (if its weak). So most skip the most crucial part of development as well most only think of it as a physical muscular method which is sad.

 

I come from a southern shaolin system which hold the stances different to the DEEP BOX like stances which I think can hurt your knees especially if you have knee problems. My horse the legs (thighs) are slightly pulling in and your weight is felt on the thighs you shouldnt be getting knee problems. 1 hrs a day is what you want to work up to eventually! I know its hard but Ive have students that do this for there 1st level grading its peoples minds that give up not the muscles, you can stand and walk all day on those legs so there is no excuses.

 

Many postures start with your hands on your hips palms open as if you grabbing your love handles, the reason for this you dont want too much things going on in the beginning the standing is gonna be hard enough for now. Breath slow and deep in and out into the dan tian, when the legs are shaking and trembling, your mind will want to give up, bring your mind always back to the dan tian. You will see how the mind will scatter, you need to have that mind developed through the pain!!! Dont go to deep the knee's shouldn't go past your toes so make it in the beginning before the toes and work up to getting deeper later.

 

Dont worry about hand postures for now, work on even breathing in and out dan tian, keep your posture relaxed, eyes closed or open if opened dont be looking around at things go into a trance state by following the breath finding and develop you dan tian. When finished doing all this your body is gonna be on fire, shaking you wanna bring all that back to the dan tian, just sit still and of course massage the legs a little and shake them out.

 

Many kung fu peeps dont realize the secrets within the training methods not always the forms, they want forms and more forms and haven't build the structure and foundations which is the key.

 

Remember to work up to an hr, start 5 mins and work up, or as you watch your favourite TV show, you can work the horse stance and during the tV commercials sit down and shake it out to help build it up. But its hard to watch tv and focus on your breathing at the same time as well dan tian, but as a basic practice to get your legs strong and used to it, its ok. My teachers famous words was "You are as strong as your horse"! He had to do his stances on in oil pit no shoes to learn to grip and root, and walk the stance through mud pit up to his hips pushing and forcing his way through it.

 

gotta go bro, hope this helps for now!

 

Ape

[That Guy]

Thanks again for taking the time and helping out Ape your effort is appreciated. But Man 1 hour horse stance sounds tough, but I'll try and get there over the next few weeks. Might be easier now than before, been doing some jogging on and off recently, and it can be seem impossible to run a certain distance when you start, but once you just get going and dont think about it before you know it you're there.

 

I guess thats all from me for now, at least until I have that hour down.

[enouch]

When you talk about the Mo pai, it is an intellectal exercise-you have no experience. You comment on what you've read and what you think. When I do so, I am talking about my life and my personal experiences. The significant word here is 'personal'. It is an eggs and ham situation-the chicken being involved, the pig committed. You weren't there, you weren't even involved; you are simply curious whereas I was committed. You can't discuss this on an 'equal' basis with me because you weren't there and have no experience of the school. It has nothing to do with bragging rights or talking from 'on high'. It has everything to do with deeply personal experiences, some of which are private, regardless of public curiosity.

 

I've had a little communication with some who've met and trained with WLP, and they certainly seem happy about that. Several people here on this forum have met him and posted their opinions. Given that, ask them, rather than me. When I made my comment, WLP was not teaching openly, nor inviting foreigners to come to the open public seminars. That has happened, so there hardly seemed any point in my commenting-others have already done so.

My 'advice', FWIW, is this. Go where you feel compelled to go. I personally would consider the following, which does not include WLP (no slight in his direction, simply personal choice).

 

If your quest is spiritual and you want to travel, then the monks of Myanmar and Thailand.

 

If you want to stay in the US of A, go see Michael Lomax or Santiago Dobles. Michael teaches an authentic method. The sufi way is second to non.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

f your quest is spiritual and you want to travel, then the monks of Myanmar and Thailand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Forgive me if this seems redundant or a dumb question to you. But are these monks open to teaching the deeper metaphsical ways to westerners? I'd hate to waste [on travel] the money for nothing.

[Starjumper]

Edited June 14, 2010 by Starjumper7

[That Guy]

Sorry, I didn't catch what you said, can you repeat it?

[Spirit Ape]

That guy,

 

Hi mate, I dont know what you practice but if you get time, the horse stance is a lot more than what it is, similar to Jaam Jong (standing post) in other internal arts but little wider and deeper which makes it harder. If you into some physcial training squats, lunges can help train some muscle groups also.

 

Good luck with it all, it can be done it really sorts out the weak minded and I guess its the test all my students go through in my arts. Funny seeing people say oh i CANT DO 5 MINS, but when you push them they get 10 and you say another minute they can do that so its all mind over matter.

 

Ape

 

Kung Fu = Hard work its true no easy way to develop its all hard work...

[fizix]

Karma can grow like fire. Choose wisely what matches you light.

 

For the record, neglecting vital details of mo pai training can lead to serious damage.

[Spirit Ape]

Tell me how do you get bad karma from sitting and meditating with a good heart and intention?

 

I think most of you that love the Mo Pai or wanna be Mo Pai are stuck in silly superstition, sorry if that doesnt sound right to you but Mo Pai level 1 is not a secret at all its normal Daoist and Shaolin chi cultivation. Even Kunlun level 2 is similar to Mo Pai level 2 with its breath retention also found in Shaolin and Daoist arts whats the big deal.