Smoking and spiritual and physical cultivation

[hajimesaito]

Many of the accomplished practitioners of Taoism and other similar traditions were smoking addicts. The best example I could come up with is John Chang. I saw him smoking a cigarette in one of his videos in youtube. Now definitely, this means that smoking actually doesn't impede growth in spiritual cultivation. Is this true?

 

Of course it goes without saying that not smoking and taking any intoxicants would always be advantageous in any tradition. But in what way could smoking affect our body according to Taoist (or any similar tradition) point of view? How does it affect the chi?

 

I am aware that many expert internal martial artists of China have been smokers and some of them also went on to lead long lives. But from the point of view of modern medicine and human physiology, smoking is actually very harmful to the body and can become reason for various illnesses.

 

 

This begs another question. If those "masters" of their arts (whether martial arts or simple spiritual cultivation) are so accomplished - which means they have great will power - then why can't they eliminate their addiction?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Everyone's got their own problems.

 

Franz Bardon was known to smoke and drink a ton of coffee- like, an unhealthy amount of coffee. He also was captured by the Nazis and thrown into a concentration camp, then was captured later on by the Russian Communists where he later died in prison.

 

With all the abilities to heal and all his clairvoyant faculties, why couldn't he save his own life?

 

What he said was karma. Everyone's got karma and everyone's gotta sort through it to balance it out. We've all got our problems, and we all have to work through them. There's a story in which Franz Bardon healed some girl who was ill, but it was her karma to have that illness and die at a young age. Bardon started to get sick and unable to do anything. As the story goes he returned to that girl, explained the situation, and she agreed to take her illness back.

 

Some things you just have to work with.

 

At least that's what they say.

[thelerner]

My take on it is the Master is still a human being, even the extraordinary ones. You have to accept it. They'll still fart, slip up and hold prejudices from there youth. Just not as often as the rest of us do.

 

Also who's to say the smoking didn't hold back Bardon from what he could have been? Maybe it did. Mistelle or Rawn Clark had an article on it, but I couldn't find it.

 

Smoking in particular does have pay offs, ie increased focus and a slight surge of energy, plus it was much more common and acceptable in the past.

 

Course there's also the pesky matter of cancer, emphysema, and death.

 

 

I'm sure when our followers write about us in the future they'll ponder why we drank so much coffee and wasted so much time on the internet

[sifusufi]

Yeah! Years of painful gasping for air, shortness of breath, decreased O2 levels, oxygen therapy, horkin' up mucus balls, impotency, lung cancer, COPD, CHF, hospitalizations, dependancy of caretakers for ADL's and ambulation, taxation, air pollution, (I'm just getting started here)

Trust me I witness this shit on an almost daily basis. (You pay for it BTW)

Shit! Sigh me up man! GO TOBACCO!!!

 

 

P.S Really goes well with a SUPERSIZED value meal from whereever.

 

Why do drug stores sell tobacco 3 ft from the entrance and you have to walk (or get wheeled) 100 yards back to the pharmacy? Hmmm...

[Sloppy Zhang]

Also who's to say the smoking didn't hold back Bardon from what he could have been? Maybe it did. Mistelle or Rawn Clark had an article on it, but I couldn't find it.

 

I mean I'm not saying that it didn't, I'm just saying that this stuff happens despite already amazing progress and/or abilities.

 

Daniel Murphy wrote an article here about Bardon: A Perspective on Franz Bardon and one thing he talks about was the spirit of Bardon taking on the karma of the body- so if you believe this to be true, the karma wasn't even "his" per se, but was still something that had to be balanced out.

 

B.K. Frantzis mentions in one of his books that no matter how high you are able to cultivate, you must remember that you don't make the rules, you're just another player in the game. One danger of getting attached to "abilities" is you getting the mistaken idea that you are somehow "creating" stuff on your own. But really you're just using what's already there, and it's dangerous to forget that.

 

Yeah! Years of painful gasping for air, shortness of breath, decreased O2 levels, oxygen therapy, horkin' up mucus balls, impotency, lung cancer, COPD, CHF, hospitalizations, dependancy of caretakers for ADL's and ambulation, taxation, air pollution, (I'm just getting started here)

Trust me I witness this shit on an almost daily basis. (You pay for it BTW)

Shit! Sigh me up man! GO TOBACCO!!!

 

I dunno man, guys like Wang Shujin could really put you down Actually more like you'd put yourself down trying to put him down

[sifusufi]

I mean I'm not saying that it didn't, I'm just saying that this stuff happens despite already amazing progress and/or abilities.

 

Daniel Murphy wrote an article here about Bardon: A Perspective on Franz Bardon and one thing he talks about was the spirit of Bardon taking on the karma of the body- so if you believe this to be true, the karma wasn't even "his" per se, but was still something that had to be balanced out.

 

B.K. Frantzis mentions in one of his books that no matter how high you are able to cultivate, you must remember that you don't make the rules, you're just another player in the game. One danger of getting attached to "abilities" is you getting the mistaken idea that you are somehow "creating" stuff on your own. But really you're just using what's already there, and it's dangerous to forget that.

 

 

 

I dunno man, guys like Wang Shujin could really put you down Actually more like you'd put yourself down trying to put him down

 

Thanks! I did a quick search and will surely follow up on him.

Forgot about the B.K. Frantzis story about having his head handed to him by an " old pot bellied chain smoking cook" I laughed hard when I read that one!

[Sloppy Zhang]

Thanks! I did a quick search and will surely follow up on him.

Forgot about the B.K. Frantzis story about having his head handed to him by an " old pot bellied chain smoking cook" I laughed hard when I read that one!

 

Really, talk about Wu Wei.

 

"I ain't gonna hurt you kid.... you're gonna hurt yourself as soon as you punch my belly!"

[sifusufi]

Really, talk about Wu Wei.

 

"I ain't gonna hurt you kid.... you're gonna hurt yourself as soon as you punch my belly!"

Page 16! Yeah had to run and get it off the table "When I kicked him in the shin my foot hurt long afterward" This is great!

"When I drove my fist into his belly, it felt as if the blow had broken my wrist"

Damn now I have to read it cover to cover again! Gotta cite that pot belly quote.. priceless!

[Sloppy Zhang]

Page 16! Yeah had to run and get it off the table "When I kicked him in the shin my foot hurt long afterward" This is great!

"When I drove my fist into his belly, it felt as if the blow had broken my wrist"

Damn now I have to read it cover to cover again! Gotta cite that pot belly quote.. priceless!

 

I don't remember the exact quote, but I do remember when he mentioned that Wang Shujin could injure peoples' spines by hitting them with his ginormous belly.

 

I just.... I dunno. I mean I got respect for internal martial arts, I got respect for internal martial artists, and I got respect for anyone who is able to perfect their art to such a high degree.....

 

But.... you just have to laugh sometimes..... It's just... so.... funny......

 

Sorry for getting way off topic.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Gerard]

...But in what way could smoking affect our body according to Taoist (or any similar tradition) point of view? How does it affect the chi??...

 

Very bad. First and foremost:

 

Smoking = Fire

Lungs = Metal

 

Fire controls metal (controlling cycle according to 5 Elements Theory). But there is more to this as if we follow the Buddhist principle of "paticcasamuppada" or dependent origination, any disharmony of an organ system or element on one level, there will be a fall-out at the other levels. Therefore, if we have a problem with the Lungs there will be a health issues related to respiration: asthma, coughing, and even lung cancer. However, on other levels, we'll see sadness. This is the emotion associated with the Metal element, the Lung element.

 

 

I would advice to stop smoking especially for people born in metal and fire years or ruled by those elements in yang form (horse, dog & monkey).

[mjjbecker]

Definitely bad, but a very common cultural thing in parts of Asia, particularly China. I've not encountered any teacher that would recommend smoking-quite the opposite. The same goes for strong liquor.

 

As already mentioned, teachers are human like the rest of us, and, in fairness to them, shouldn't be put on a pedestal. Everyone's got their own work to do on themselves. It's not a bad thing for the student either-being around a god-like teacher would be more than a little intimidating I think.

 

One important thing to remember with illness is overall lifestyle. The traditional diet that I have observed is very high in fruit and vegetables. As people move more towards the junk food, and unfortunately certain Western companies are very popular here now, health is going to be adversely effected.

 

Wang Shujin was certainly an amazing man. It's worth looking up Ellis Amdur's comments on e-budo, and Marnix Wells' article on Allan Pittman's website. According to Marnix Wells, Wang was partial to the Taiwanese version of '7-Up'. Wang ended up with diabetes and bone cancer of the leg (possibly from the blows he took while showing off-R.W. Smith wrote that he heard Wang wailing in the night after one such demo, so Wang certainly felt the leg shots. Apparently bone cancer is not unusual in Muay Thai fighters also). Apparently Wang speculated that his qi made him fat, but that doesn't bear out when looking at many other famous teachers. So, poor lifestyle and showing off will catch up with anyone in the end (no disrespect to Wang).

 

BTW, Marnix Wells has a website: http://www.marnixwells.com/ . An interesting man and someone who understands the Chinese language from the perspective of a martial artist, not just a scholar. Got some nice insight into Wang, especially given that MW was a disciple of Wang, unlike BKF (no disrespect to BKF).

[enouch]

Many of the accomplished practitioners of Taoism and other similar traditions were smoking addicts. The best example I could come up with is John Chang. I saw him smoking a cigarette in one of his videos in youtube. Now definitely, this means that smoking actually doesn't impede growth in spiritual cultivation. Is this true?

 

Of course it goes without saying that not smoking and taking any intoxicants would always be advantageous in any tradition. But in what way could smoking affect our body according to Taoist (or any similar tradition) point of view? How does it affect the chi?

 

I am aware that many expert internal martial artists of China have been smokers and some of them also went on to lead long lives. But from the point of view of modern medicine and human physiology, smoking is actually very harmful to the body and can become reason for various illnesses.

 

 

This begs another question. If those "masters" of their arts (whether martial arts or simple spiritual cultivation) are so accomplished - which means they have great will power - then why can't they eliminate their addiction?

 

his begs another question. If those "masters" of their arts (whether martial arts or simple spiritual cultivation) are so accomplished - which means they have great will power - then why can't they eliminate their addiction?

0

 

* +

* -

 

 

You will only find perfection in the eyes of a child. I'm a student of hypnosis and at one teaching Kenrick Cleaveland said: ''people will say if hypnosis is so effective why isn't your life perfect? They will look for any area of imperfection to cast stones'' Having powers doesn't mean that person is somehow ultra enlightened or perfect. It's possible to not have powers and be almost perfect and it's possible to have powers and be very carnal. If you are complete but poor modern man will judge you for being poor.Everything is relative to the standard you are using. We are imperfect creatures in an imperfect world.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

silly notions, ludicrous completely. experiences which distract and dissettle the mind are merely training aides!

 

 

So naturally, smoking and keeping focus are an exercise that immunize you to the ills of the smoke.

 

 

 

However, as with all things, moderation and balance are necessary. just as all things are beneficial in moderation and harmful in excess, you msut learn what the excessive levels are and be mindful not to breach them, lest you lose control of your faculties and engage in "exercise" you might not be able to endure.

 

 

So let it be known that your habits and intakes will undoubtedly affect your perceptions and conduct, but maintaining control of your faculties will help immunize you of the ill effects and allow you to conduct yourself efficiently even under the influences.

 

Substances slow y/our spiritual and energy progress while they quicken the physical development.

Deprivation slows y/our physical and mental progress, while hastening your spiritual understanding.

[dwai]

Very bad. First and foremost:

 

Smoking = Fire

Lungs = Metal

 

Fire controls metal (controlling cycle according to 5 Elements Theory). But there is more to this as if we follow the Buddhist principle of "paticcasamuppada" or dependent origination, any disharmony of an organ system or element on one level, there will be a fall-out at the other levels. Therefore, if we have a problem with the Lungs there will be a health issues related to respiration: asthma, coughing, and even lung cancer. However, on other levels, we'll see sadness. This is the emotion associated with the Metal element, the Lung element.

 

 

I would advice to stop smoking especially for people born in metal and fire years or ruled by those elements in yang form (horse, dog & monkey).

 

and if you take the Ayurvedic position, Smoking is both Fire (Pitta) and Wind (Vata). The wind fans the fire...increasing both the Wind and Fire humors of the body, throwing the system off-balance. Prana being a finely balanced function of Vata (Wind Humor), get's agitated and the 5 pranas (Prana, Samana, Udana, Vyana and Apana) go out of whack...

 

Definitely no no