A question for Vaj the Buddhist

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Honestly man, I'd rather put your full name, but I'll be damned if I can ever remember it. Names are certainly not my strong point, and certainly not Indian names

 

 

I have a couple of questions Vaj, all revolving around one topic, that of enlightenment.

 

I was gonna' post this on the other thread but that thread isn't really about this topic, so I decided to start a new one for the specific purpose. I am also aware that this is a Daoist forum so apologies to anyone who takes exception to something 'off forum'....but let's face it.... it's hardly the first time is it

 

So, my questions are sincere and as follows:

 

1. Have you ever met someone enlightened?

 

2. If you meet someone enlightened how would you know? As in, on an inner level can their state of mind/no mind(sorry if it's not the correct term)be transfered for a time to you, and so, therefore, you can judge it.

 

3. How can a person judge actual enlightenment unless they themselves are enlightened? And how can it be known if it is actual enlightenment or just another way-stage on the Buddhist path?

 

4. What is the actual experience of enlightenment(if it is a certain specific stage kind of thing)in simple terms?

 

5. What's the point of enlightenment? I kind of know(in the most simple of terms), but I'd prefer a live, actual explanation of the benefits/no benefits if that's possible.

 

 

Anyway, do me a big favor Vaj, if you have time to reply, imagine when you reply you're replying to someone quite dumb and you will really be doing me a big favour!(keywords: 'dumb down')I may not be here later so give me a bit of time to give a response.... but I will read it. Thanks

 

 

If anyone else wants to chip in feel free to do so. Peanuts are welcome too!

 

Edit: ps. I hope you don't mind being defined as 'Vaj the Buddhist', it's not meant to be derogatory, although looking at it just know I'm wondering if you might take it as such. It's not meant in that way.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

[Gerard]

Let me chip in quickly:

 

What level of enlightenment are you referring to?

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Let me chip in quickly:

 

What level of enlightenment are you referring to?

 

aha.............

 

Well, that's the point Durkhrod, I don't know.

 

I'm no Buddhist scholar, not even close. So how many are there? How can there be more than one? And can one be called enlightenment only when compared to the other? A kind of 'my enlightenments better than yours' kind of thing(forgive the poor example).

 

Is enlightenment only enlightenment by comparison to the others previously to it?

 

I have no idea. Really I don't.

[宁]

Great thread. Looking forward to answers, hope durkhrod will provide for some of them as well.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I will be very surprised if very many here even understand the concept of enlightenment. This forum is heavy with those who consciously or unconsciously seek to gain power through kundalini, qi abilities, special powers, or their idea of how special they would be if they became what they imagine to be "enlightened".

 

I will not yet say what my views on enlightenment are, I'd like to see what others say.

 

I think this thread would be much better served if it were not directed toward Vajrahridaya. I do not believe he can express himself in language that is simple, clear, easy to understand and free of technical and endlessly circular ethereal Buddhist jargon. We'll see. But why limit the topic with his answers? He certainly needs no encouragement to post here more!

[C T]

I have a premonition that this thread could match the length of the Haiku Chain... just kidding!

 

Wonderful questions Ninpo, and i am sure you will get a glimpse into this from all the brilliant minds we are fortunate enough to have on this forum. Since you specifically mentioned Vaj, it might dampen my inspiration somewhat, although as yet it hasn't, nonetheless about 300 posts down, when the 'simmering' stage sets in, perhaps then there will be some kind of decorum reached, and things/views will fabric themselves into coherency, or more accurately, at least a reflection of it.

 

Here is my little chip.. (and you can have my chair too if that's what it takes!) - -

Please bear with me if i have to resort to quoting some teachings found in the Suttas - i wish i was more skillful in my spontaneity but then i might just mess things up for you. As you know, Right View is rather stressed in relation to this, and its hard to stray from this when one has the 'operations manual' as a guide... in this instance, the Anguttara Nikaya is used. This is the discourse the Buddha gave called The Discourse on Forming an Intention:

 

"The virtuous one, endowed with virtue, need not form an intention 'may my conscience be clear'. It is natural for the virtuous one endowed with virtue to have a clear conscience.

 

Having a clear conscience, there is no need to will 'may i feel joy'. Joy naturally arises in those who have a clear conscience.

 

The joyful need not decide 'may i be filled with rapture'. Joyfulness naturally produces rapture.

 

There is no need for the enraptured to resolve 'may my body calm down'. It is natural in the enraptured for the body to calm down.

 

With a body at rest there is no need to form the intention 'may i experience bliss'. When the body is at rest, there is a natural experience of bliss.

 

The blissful do not need to will 'may my mind become composed'. The mind of the blissful is naturally composed.

 

When the mind is composed, there is no need to think (more accurately to grasp with the mind) 'may i have knowledge and vision of experience as it is'.

 

With the mind composed, one naturally sees and knows experience as it is.

 

Knowing and seeing experience as it is, there is no need to form an intention 'may I become weary of experience and give rise to dispassion (towards experience).

 

It is natural when seeing experience as it is that one becomes wearisome and turns away from the falseness of fleeting experiences.

 

Weary of experience and disinterested in it, there is no need to wish 'may i experience for myself the knowledge and vision of liberation'.

 

For, weary of experience and disinterested in it one naturally experiences knowledge and vision of liberation.

 

Thus the benefit and the blessing of being fed up with experience and turning away from it IS the knowledge and vision of Liberation.

 

The benefit and the blessing of knowing experience as it is is wearying of experience and turning away from it.

 

The benefit and the blessing of a composed mind is knowing experience as it is.

 

The benefit and the blessing of bliss is a composed mind.

 

The benefit and the blessing of a calm body is blissfulness.

 

The benefit and the blessing of rapture is the calming down of the body.

 

The benefit and the blessing of joy is rapture.

 

The benefit and the blessing of a clear conscience is joy.

 

The benefit and the blessing of behaving virtuously is a clear conscience.

 

Thus each one fills up the next, each one is fulfilled by the next, and goes from the near shores to the far shores."

 

 

 

 

This teaching of the Sutta is quite clear in itself how liberation can be brought about.

Enlightenment is a natural process. One virtue leads to another, each one filling up the next, and in turn becomes a fulfillment for the virtue to come.

 

As an example, people often declare, "I just want to be filled with joy all the time!" By understanding the deep meaning of this Sutta, there is no need actually to form a conscious intention to be joyful, and chase after those things that we think will lead us to a joyful disposition. Often these things, on the contrary, lead us further away from that which is sought after. If one wants to be joyful, simply look into the conditions that bring about joy, with emphasis on cultivating virtues.

 

The text says that if one practices virtue in the Buddhist sense of the word, then all else follow quite naturally. There is compelling logic to this. At the same time it is also very pragmatic, and taught in the spirit of "Go and test it out for yourselves".

 

It does not mean no effort is needed - more like it requires plenty of right effort. But if one do not neglect the foundations, then the rest will fall into place. It becomes a spiraling natural progression, and this progression is seen in all of life's unfolding, so its not anti-nature, not dogmatic, and not impractical, as such.

 

Learning to begin viewing in this way, one can have a good footing in the spiritual life. It enables reasonable contemplation, and by putting this into practice in one's own experiences, one begins to notice the profound truth of this teaching. When it found to be true, and workable, insight into what Enlightenment is follows naturally.

 

And as they say, the rest is history...

 

(now i am going to watch some Wimbledon tennis, with peanuts in hand hehe)... No more thinking and wondering what Enlightenment is, hopefully for ever.

 

Have fun wherever you are, and cast all doubts to the winds of change.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Thank you for your kind offering Mr Cow, but I for one would rather hear a personal account of the notion of enlightenment. I think ninpo-me started this thread with the intention of not getting quotes from sutras or other Buddhist thinkers, but rather a very simple and clear translation of the notion of enlightenment. Surely it is way more than 'kundalini activation'. indeed, a being may be enlightened without bothering with kundalini, yes?

[Lucky7Strikes]

Enlightenment is practice. CowTao outlined it in his quote nicely!

Edited June 23, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Birch]

Ok, I'll take a stab;-)

 

Enlightenment is knowing experientially a few things at the same time:

 

- how one aspect of what you (initially) consider to be yourself (the ego/identity construct)came about

 

- knowing that it isn't all of you at the same time.

 

- it's recognition of how consciousness (or awareness, I never get the correct one) constructs itself into an "entity" in relationship (and opposition to other entities)

 

- how that entity self-perpetuates (unless you hack into it via various methods) and can cause needless suffering (if for example I see myself as a success in some field and then I fail (which happens on the road to success) the degree to which I experience suffering will largely depend on the degree to which I identified with the "success". The term "attachment" is often used for this, but I prefer "identify".

 

- how to navigate within consciousness with more and more intentionality and less and less recourse to conditioning, this is where the qi-gong, kundalini, yogic, tai-chi, meditation, other energetic practices start being very useful. They help to recondition the entity. Because there is no mind/body/soul/spirit-soul split. None.

[Art]

I am certainly no authority figure and am myself a humble practicioner, but I've picked up these ideas and held fast to them along my journey:

 

1) Enlightenment cannot be described to another. It can only be experienced.

2) There is no goal to reach, no standard to measure oneself by.

3) There are many paths to enlightenment, all are to be respected as equal.

4) Someone who trys to sell you enlightenment is not enlightened.

5) Someone who says it must be this way or that, is not enlightened.

6) Enlightenment is to be found within yourself, not outside.

7) You cannot judge for youself whether you are enlightened.

 

In my experience, I cannot claim to have reached "enlightenment". My practice results in states of peace and bliss, which help me to live a balanced life. I often get compliments on my attitude and how I treat others. That doesn't mean I'm enlightened, just a nice guy.

 

After you get many replies, some better than others, you may want to ask yourself, why am I asking? What is it you are looking for or what are you trying to accomplish with these studies? The answers to those questions will tell you more than any reply here.

 

Lastly I must apologize to our more experienced and knowledgable members. I am no Buddhist or Buddhist scholar, nor even a Daoist scholar; just a wanna-be, making mistakes and learning along the way, and I'm fine with that.

 

Looking forward to other replies.

[宁]

let me make my guess : ))

 

- en-light-en-ment = it must have something to do with Light, a certain kinda light

 

- if the English counterpart isn't functional, what is the original buddhist word?

 

I think we must understand the Etymologyfirst...

[三江源]

There was a good thread in 2007 on definitions of enlightenment and a poster called agharta gave what is generally considered to be the corrrect answer :

 

 

 

Posted 04 November 2007 - 04:59 AM

 

I think enlightenment is earmarked by the ejaculation of a genie during masturbation.

 

 

So now you know.

[ralis]

The problem with defining what enlightenment is (is-ness) through a semantic framework creates problems of interpretation. Apologists for their particular belief system (BS) use the old Aristotelian framework of a black or white, yes or no framework to defend and promote a belief system. Herein lies the problem. By using this framework, the purveyor, dogmatist etc. of so called truth, will posit his or her view as absolute truth i.e, not arbitrary. This black and white framework does not leave room for any continuum of experience, discussion or interpretation, but leaves one with only two choices.

 

Here is a well written piece on is-ness. http://www.transpersonal.com.au/about/is-ness.htm

 

ralis

[ralis]

There was a good thread in 2007 on definitions of enlightenment and a poster called agharta gave what is generally considered to be the corrrect answer :

 

 

 

 

 

 

So now you know.

 

:lol:

[Vajrahridaya]

Honestly man, I'd rather put your full name, but I'll be damned if I can ever remember it. Names are certainly not my strong point, and certainly not Indian names

 

 

I have a couple of questions Vaj, all revolving around one topic, that of enlightenment.

 

I was gonna' post this on the other thread but that thread isn't really about this topic, so I decided to start a new one for the specific purpose. I am also aware that this is a Daoist forum so apologies to anyone who takes exception to something 'off forum'....but let's face it.... it's hardly the first time is it

 

So, my questions are sincere and as follows:

 

1. Have you ever met someone enlightened?

 

 

Yes, first my Hindu teacher is enlightened within her tradition which I grew up in. But, she has a knowledge obscuration according to Buddhism in the way she relates to the experience, there is a slight mis-cognition which leads to an entirely different end game sort of speak, which in Buddhism... there is no end-game. But she has many powers of perception, and deep insight into much of the nature of suffering and she has deeply peaceful and blissful supercharged energy. She was my first who gave me Shaktipat at a young age. Through her path I experienced a universe full of deep "magic" with lots of travel and remembering. I also experienced inner states of consciousness and body that are spoken about in yogic texts.

 

My Buddhist enlightened teacher has IMO a more integrated bliss and a deeper awareness of things. Thus the transmission from him was subtler and I experienced more clarity. Of course I was older and more experienced... so maybe more open. But the "wholeness" or "totality" of the information surrounding the Dzogchen tradition and Buddhism in general is clearer by a vast margin if one were to quantify or qualify information in this way, which I do. The methodology of practice granted is also much more pronounced, even if seemingly more complicated... it's more integral to a grounded realization. Also resulting in Jalus. Explanation of Jalus... Another explanation.

 

2. If you meet someone enlightened how would you know? As in, on an inner level can their state of mind/no mind(sorry if it's not the correct term)be transfered for a time to you, and so, therefore, you can judge it.

 

Yes, state of mind that isn't ordinary. Yes... there is transmission.

 

3. How can a person judge actual enlightenment unless they themselves are enlightened? And how can it be known if it is actual enlightenment or just another way-stage on the Buddhist path?

 

There are ways of deciphering that have been documented. But in all due respect, you can't fully know anything for certain unless you are constantly in the state of Rigpa. Link to explanation of Rigpa.

 

But, if you get a glimpse of Rigpa through the persons transmission, then you know you are in good hands. My Hindu teacher gave me transmission and there is non-dual awareness there but it's of a slightly different handling which somewhat changes the experience, due to how it's interpreted on a deeply subtle level. When I got transmission from my Buddhist teacher, there was an experience of a higher level of clarity and a vaster amount of spontaneous insight.

 

4. What is the actual experience of enlightenment(if it is a certain specific stage kind of thing)in simple terms?

 

I'll tell you when I'm fully blown out. But, from glimpses... it's grounded, blissful, clarity without the time for assumption.

 

5. What's the point of enlightenment? I kind of know(in the most simple of terms), but I'd prefer a live, actual explanation of the benefits/no benefits if that's possible.

 

You live, but you are clear about where you came from, past lives, and clear about what you are living for, so you are clear about where you are going, even if the particulars will still manifest spontaneously. There is intrinsic clarity due to direct seeing through to the nature of all activities and not static states of contraction or resistance to any occurrence in life anymore.

 

Anyway, do me a big favor Vaj, if you have time to reply, imagine when you reply you're replying to someone quite dumb and you will really be doing me a big favour!(keywords: 'dumb down')I may not be here later so give me a bit of time to give a response.... but I will read it. Thanks

 

There is just karma which is deeply complicated and unique for each individual mind stream. I wouldn't consider you dumb, but I understand.

 

Edit: ps. I hope you don't mind being defined as 'Vaj the Buddhist'

 

I really don't mind.

 

it's not meant to be derogatory, although looking at it just know I'm wondering if you might take it as such. It's not meant in that way.

 

"I am what I eat."

Edited June 23, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

indeed, a being may be enlightened without bothering with kundalini, yes?

 

I don't think so... well energy that is. I think the way it wildly manifests in the Hindu tradition is a reflection of it's level of realization though. It seems to manifest with more clarity and groundedness in Buddhist Tantra paths. I don't think there is enlightenment of any level without stilling the winds in the central channel first.

[ralis]

Yes, first my Hindu teacher is enlightened within her tradition which I grew up in. But, she has a knowledge obscuration according to Buddhism in the way she relates to the experience, there is a slight mis-cognition which leads to an entirely different end game sort of speak, which in Buddhism... there is no end-game. But she has many powers of perception, and deep insight into much of the nature of suffering and she has deeply peaceful and blissful supercharged energy. She was my first who gave me Shaktipat at a young age. Through her path I experienced a universe full of deep "magic" with lots of travel and remembering. I also experienced inner states of consciousness and body that are spoken about in yogic texts.

 

My Buddhist enlightened teacher has IMO a more integrated bliss and a deeper awareness of things. Thus the transmission from him was subtler and I experienced more clarity. Of course I was older and more experienced... so maybe more open. But the "wholeness" or "totality" of the information surrounding the Dzogchen tradition and Buddhism in general is clearer by a vast margin if one were to quantify or qualify information in this way, which I do. The methodology of practice granted is also much more pronounced, even if seemingly more complicated... it's more integral to a grounded realization. Also resulting in Jalus. Explanation of Jalus... Another explanation.

 

 

 

Yes, state of mind that isn't ordinary. Yes... there is transmission.

 

 

 

There are ways of deciphering that have been documented. But in all due respect, you can't fully know anything for certain unless you are constantly in the state of Rigpa. Link to explanation of Rigpa.

 

But, if you get a glimpse of Rigpa through the persons transmission, then you know you are in good hands. My Hindu teacher gave me transmission and there is non-dual awareness there but it's of a slightly different handling which somewhat changes the experience, due to how it's interpreted on a deeply subtle level. When I got transmission from my Buddhist teacher, there was an experience of a higher level of clarity and a vaster amount of spontaneous insight.

 

 

 

I'll tell you when I'm fully blown out. But, from glimpses... it's grounded, blissful, clarity without the time for assumption.

 

 

 

You live, but you are clear about where you came from, past lives, and clear about what you are living for, so you are clear about where you are going, even if the particulars will still manifest spontaneously. There is intrinsic clarity due to direct seeing through to the nature of all activities and not static states of contraction or resistance to any occurrence in life anymore.

 

 

 

There is just karma which is deeply complicated and unique for each individual mind stream. I wouldn't consider you dumb, but I understand.

 

 

 

I really don't mind.

 

 

 

"I am what I eat."

 

In response, Vajraji immediately sets up his own little world view of hierarchies, from Hinduism at the bottom to an elite Buddhist view on the top.

 

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

let me make my guess : ))

 

- en-light-en-ment = it must have something to do with Light, a certain kinda light

 

- if the English counterpart isn't functional, what is the original buddhist word?

 

I think we must understand the Etymologyfirst...

 

Nibbana, which means "blown out." Nirvana is sanskrit. The Buddha said in one description... all shadows scatter. So, I would translate that to mean when ones pandoras box is completely illuminated and that energy is turned into blessings, or Santa's bag of toys as goodies for all? Who are available to get it that is...

[Vajrahridaya]

In response, Vajraji immediately sets up his own little world view of hierarchies, from Hinduism at the bottom to an elite Buddhist view on the top.

 

 

ralis

 

Yes ralis, there is a hierarchy. There is the more intelligent and than the less so.

 

Just like there is the more aware and there is the less so. May the more aware always teach the less aware how to be more aware.

 

May the fearless teach those filled with fear how to be free from fear always! May those with no doubt teach how one can be free from self doubt.

[Vajrahridaya]

I am certainly no authority figure and am myself a humble practicioner, but I've picked up these ideas and held fast to them along my journey:

 

1) Enlightenment cannot be described to another. It can only be experienced.

2) There is no goal to reach, no standard to measure oneself by.

3) There are many paths to enlightenment, all are to be respected as equal.

4) Someone who trys to sell you enlightenment is not enlightened.

5) Someone who says it must be this way or that, is not enlightened.

6) Enlightenment is to be found within yourself, not outside.

7) You cannot judge for youself whether you are enlightened.

 

 

By this qualification, your other statements are made null.

 

In my experience, I cannot claim to have reached "enlightenment". My practice results in states of peace and bliss, which help me to live a balanced life. I often get compliments on my attitude and how I treat others. That doesn't mean I'm enlightened, just a nice guy.

 

After you get many replies, some better than others, you may want to ask yourself, why am I asking? What is it you are looking for or what are you trying to accomplish with these studies? The answers to those questions will tell you more than any reply here.

 

 

Other than that... Thanks for the input!

Edited June 23, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

There was a good thread in 2007 on definitions of enlightenment and a poster called agharta gave what is generally considered to be the corrrect answer :

 

 

 

Posted 04 November 2007 - 04:59 AM

 

I think enlightenment is earmarked by the ejaculation of a genie during masturbation.

 

 

So now you know.

 

I have done this and I'm still not enlightened. So... what next?

Edited June 23, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

Yes ralis, there is a hierarchy. There is the more intelligent and than the less so.

 

Just like there is the more aware and there is the less so. May the more aware always teach the less aware how to be more aware.

 

May the fearless teach those filled with fear how to be free from fear always! May those with no doubt teach how one can be free from self doubt.

 

I suppose you are the chosen one to lead us out of darkness into the elite Buddhist light. BTW, why not use correct words and make your grammar more coherent.

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

I suppose you are the chosen one to lead us out of darkness into the elite Buddhist light. BTW, why not use correct words and make your grammar more coherent.

 

ralis

 

Why not think more with the right side of your brain instead of merely your left side?

[Vajrahridaya]

In response, Vajraji immediately sets up his own little world view of hierarchies, from Hinduism at the bottom to an elite Buddhist view on the top.

 

 

ralis

 

ralis, to put it in a nutshell. It's because in Buddhism the seed of re-emergence into Samsaric activity is identified, and that seed is self grasping. In Hindu interpretation of spiritual experience, there is still a slight form of self grasping, even if it's to a formless state of non-conceptual consciousness of all. It's still self grasping which eventually leads to re-expression in Samsaric experiences. So, the basis of unconscious cycling is not emptied in Hindu methodology or philosophy, thus the true nature of Samsara is not recognized.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Yes ralis, there is a hierarchy. There is the more intelligent and than the less so.

 

Just like there is the more aware and there is the less so. May the more aware always teach the less aware how to be more aware.

 

May the fearless teach those filled with fear how to be free from fear always! May those with no doubt teach how one can be free from self doubt.

 

 

There are not "more" or "less" intelligent people, but pople who have different practices with their intelligence.

There is no "more" or "less" aware, but a matter of ratio as to where one's awareness is placed.

 

All hierarchies are fictions of the human mind, dualistic separations of the inherent oneness of our world, and not real, at all, beyond how much mind we put into them.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Stoner Shadow Wolf