A question for Vaj the Buddhist

[ShaktiMama]

I don't think so... well energy that is. I think the way it wildly manifests in the Hindu tradition is a reflection of it's level of realization though. It seems to manifest with more clarity and groundedness in Buddhist Tantra paths. I don't think there is enlightenment of any level without stilling the winds in the central channel first.

 

 

I miss those winds. They are a lot of fun. Sensation, pleasure. Sigh... damn

s

[ralis]

Why not think more with the right side of your brain instead of merely your left side?

 

What is that supposed to mean? Right brain = incoherency. I happen to use both sides very well and use what is appropriate.

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

There are not "more" or "less" intelligent people, but pople who have different practices with their intelligence.

 

In potentiality, someone born with down syndrome in this life may be reborn into the next life with the potential to be a scholar and an accomplished yogi.

 

From all practical standpoints, yes there is the more intelligent and the less intelligent.

 

There is no "more" or "less" aware

 

There is the potential for either Buddhahood, awareness of the nature of things, thus omnipresence is realized or in any mind stream there is also the potential to be a worm. The mind stream itself is not more or less as the potentiality is equal, but the awareness of a Buddha is one who is aware of this potential and is fully aware of awareness.

but a matter of ratio as to where one's awareness is placed.

 

This is exactly what qualifies more awareness or less so for an individual mind stream.

 

All hierarchies are fictions of the human mind, dualistic separations of the inherent oneness of our world, and not real, at all, beyond how much mind we put into them.

 

Oneness is also an illusion, and if grasped to as a self will merely lead to formless absorption.

 

In Buddhism, non-dual means not two but not one either. There is no one substance that all being springs from according to Buddhas cosmology. There is just the state where perceptions and energy is stilled for a single being for an elongated period of time of seeming no time (due to the experience of neither perception nor non-perception), or a moment of no time (depending upon how long you can stay in this meditative state for), or a mass of beings in agreement with your ideation experience this at the end of one universe or another (as pralaya definition of pralaya), but only come out ignorantly in the next universe, doing the cycle of suffering to bliss all over again.

 

So, this does not lead to liberation from Samsara. It just leads to blissful states and it's good for rest, but, this experience is not the source of all being though, it only seems to be. It seems to be because when one comes out of the state, and the light awareness touches upon multiplicity, it seems that it is manifesting out of this state of zero, but really, it's just that your consciousness expanded past the body and everything seems to be manifesting out of this. But, it's really just an unconscious experience of the empty nature of things, and the natural luminosity of the mind is then wrongly identified as "The Self of ALL".

 

Really this state of zero, is also empty of inherent existence and the experience arises dependently. It's not an independent entity.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

In potentiality, someone born with down syndrome in this life may be reborn into the next life with the potential to be a scholar and an accomplished yogi.

 

From all practical standpoints, yes there is the more intelligent and the less intelligent.

 

 

 

There is the potential for either Buddhahood, awareness of the nature of things, thus omnipresence is realized or in any mind stream there is also the potential to be a worm. The mind stream itself is not more or less as the potentiality is equal, but the awareness of a Buddha is one who is aware of this potential and is fully aware of awareness.

 

 

This is exactly what qualifies more awareness or less so for an individual mind stream.

 

 

 

Oneness is also an illusion, and if grasped to as a self will merely lead to formless absorption.

 

In Buddhism, non-dual means not two but not one either. There is no one substance that all being springs from according to Buddhas cosmology. There is just the state where perceptions and energy is stilled for a single being for an elongated period of time of seeming no time, or a moment of no time, or a mass of beings in agreement with your ideation experience this at the end of one universe or another, but only come out ignorantly in the next universe, doing the cycle all over again. So, this does not lead to liberation from Samsara. It just leads to blissful states and it's good for rest, this experience is not the source of all being though, it only seems to be. It seems to be because when one comes out of the state, and the light awareness touches upon multiplicity, it seems that it is manifesting out of this state of zero, but really, it's just that your consciousness expanded past the body and everything seems to be manifesting out of this. But, it's really just an unconscious experience of the empty nature of things, and the natural luminosity of the mind is then wrongly identified as "The Self of ALL".

 

 

Honestly, this is rhetorical nonsense! I have read most of the extremely gifted brilliant philosophers, including Buddhist scholars and mathematicians. All of their writings are easier to understand than what you claim is a clear comprehensible rhetoric.

 

 

ralis

[ralis]

There are not "more" or "less" intelligent people, but pople who have different practices with their intelligence.

There is no "more" or "less" aware, but a matter of ratio as to where one's awareness is placed.

 

All hierarchies are fictions of the human mind, dualistic separations of the inherent oneness of our world, and not real, at all, beyond how much mind we put into them.

 

Well said!

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Honestly, this is rhetorical nonsense! I have read most of the extremely gifted brilliant philosophers, including Buddhist scholars and mathematicians. All of their writings are easier to understand than what you claim is a clear comprehensible rhetoric.

 

 

ralis

 

Well then don't read it. You only reveal your affectedness and insecurities ralis. You spit so much spite and venom. You really should chiggitti-check yourself before you wriggitti-wreck yourself. How's that for some rhetoric?

 

Actually ralis, if you really did understand Buddhist texts, you'd be Buddhist or actually, you'd be a Buddha, having transcended all such nationalities.

[ralis]

Vajraji,

 

The problem with a dogmatist such as yourself, is that you are only interested in your own world view and only wish to proselytize to others that you have designated to a lower level than your self appointed higher level.

 

 

ralis

Edited June 23, 2010 by ralis

[ralis]

Well then don't read it. You only reveal your affectedness and insecurities ralis. You spit so much spite and venom. You really should chiggitti-check yourself before you wriggitti-wreck yourself. How's that for some rhetoric?

 

Actually ralis, if you really did understand Buddhist texts, you'd be Buddhist or actually, you'd be a Buddha, having transcended all such nationalities.

 

Actually I have transcended all levels without the help of you or any Buddha.

 

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

...clear comprehensible....

 

 

ralis

 

I have edited the bottom part of your quoted text from me for the sake of more clarity, though it is technical as we are getting into subtle particulars.

[Vajrahridaya]

Vajraji,

 

The problem with a dogmatist such as yourself, is that you are only interested in your own world view and only wish to proselytize to others that you have designated to a lower level than your self appointed higher level.

 

 

ralis

 

It's not my world view. No world view is higher or lower, but some world views are more liberating than others.

[CarsonZi]

To me, enlightenment is losing the identification with self. It is losing the identification with all concepts, ideas and beliefs. It is living in the present 24/7. And it is a never ending process.

 

Love!

[ralis]

It's not my world view. No world view is higher or lower, but some world views are more liberating than others.

 

Yet you still argue for a higher world view with Buddhism i.e, when you reference Buddhism as higher than Hinduism. How can there exist a more liberating view? Liberated is free from. Either you are free or not.

 

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Yet you still argue for a higher world view with Buddhism i.e, when you reference Buddhism as higher than Hinduism. How can there exist a more liberating view? Liberated is free from. Either you are free or not.

 

 

ralis

 

This is true. But when I say liberating, I mean you are in that process that is liberating with the complete path that Buddhism is.

 

Buddhism is not higher, it's more complete, so it's both higher and lower... :lol:

[Vajrahridaya]

To me, enlightenment is losing the identification with self. It is losing the identification with all concepts, ideas and beliefs. It is living in the present 24/7. And it is a never ending process.

 

Love!

 

Even the present is ungraspable and does not inherently exist. But yes... basically... you are right, to put it practically. As the "NOW" also has to be emptied of identification with, and conceptual grasping of, etc.

[CarsonZi]

Hi Vajrahridaya and All

 

Even the present is ungraspable and does not inherently exist. But yes... basically... you are right, to put it practically. As the "NOW" also has to be emptied of identification with, and conceptual grasping of, etc.

 

Notice I said that enlightenment is the loss of identification with ALL concepts, ideas and beliefs. This includes the belief that there is a "present". This loss of identification with all concepts, ideas and beliefs also includes losing the belief that there is a superior path.

 

Love!

[adept]

Buddhism is not higher, it's more complete, so it's both higher and lower... :lol:

 

 

Well, anyone that says that one way is more complete than any other, will never become 'enlightened' in a million years !

Setting up comparisons with other forms of spirituality is futile. It is only when we drop these views that we will have any chance of awakening.

There have probably been many people throughout the ages that have awakened without being Hindu, Buddhist, Daoist, Christian etc etc.

Drop the labels and distinctions. Enlightenment is right before your very eyes.

 

Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.

After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water

[NeiChuan]

Well, anyone that says that one way is more complete than any other, will never become 'enlightened' in a million years !

Setting up comparisons with other forms of spirituality is futile. It is only when we drop these views that we will have any chance of awakening.

There have probably been many people throughout the ages that have awakened without being Hindu, Buddhist, Daoist, Christian etc etc.

Drop the labels and distinctions. Enlightenment is right before your very eyes.

 

Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.

After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water

 

Great post.

[Vajrahridaya]

Well, anyone that says that one way is more complete than any other, will never become 'enlightened' in a million years !

Setting up comparisons with other forms of spirituality is futile. It is only when we drop these views that we will have any chance of awakening.

There have probably been many people throughout the ages that have awakened without being Hindu, Buddhist, Daoist, Christian etc etc.

Drop the labels and distinctions. Enlightenment is right before your very eyes.

 

 

New agist dogma.

 

You lack study in sutta and sutra.

 

You are missing the wisdom of "right view" which the Buddha taught.

 

Take care.

[dwai]

Honestly man, I'd rather put your full name, but I'll be damned if I can ever remember it. Names are certainly not my strong point, and certainly not Indian names

 

 

I have a couple of questions Vaj, all revolving around one topic, that of enlightenment.

 

I was gonna' post this on the other thread but that thread isn't really about this topic, so I decided to start a new one for the specific purpose. I am also aware that this is a Daoist forum so apologies to anyone who takes exception to something 'off forum'....but let's face it.... it's hardly the first time is it

 

So, my questions are sincere and as follows:

 

1. Have you ever met someone enlightened?

 

2. If you meet someone enlightened how would you know? As in, on an inner level can their state of mind/no mind(sorry if it's not the correct term)be transfered for a time to you, and so, therefore, you can judge it.

 

3. How can a person judge actual enlightenment unless they themselves are enlightened? And how can it be known if it is actual enlightenment or just another way-stage on the Buddhist path?

 

4. What is the actual experience of enlightenment(if it is a certain specific stage kind of thing)in simple terms?

 

5. What's the point of enlightenment? I kind of know(in the most simple of terms), but I'd prefer a live, actual explanation of the benefits/no benefits if that's possible.

 

 

Anyway, do me a big favor Vaj, if you have time to reply, imagine when you reply you're replying to someone quite dumb and you will really be doing me a big favour!(keywords: 'dumb down')I may not be here later so give me a bit of time to give a response.... but I will read it. Thanks

 

 

If anyone else wants to chip in feel free to do so. Peanuts are welcome too!

 

Edit: ps. I hope you don't mind being defined as 'Vaj the Buddhist', it's not meant to be derogatory, although looking at it just know I'm wondering if you might take it as such. It's not meant in that way.

 

Are you looking exclusively for Buddhist dogma or are you open for a more over-arching understanding of Enlightenment?

 

If you are not, then Enlightenment is realizing your true nature/true Self. Unconditioned Consciousness self-existing and self-aware. It is the stabilization of Consciousness in Non-Duality.

 

How do you know if someone is enlightened? They very countenance will tell you, if you know how to listen.

 

What can one do to become enlightened? Realize that everything is simply Unconditioned Consciousness, realize the unity of Self and drop the differentiation of Subject and Object.

 

What will one do after becoming Enlightened? It depends

 

The actual experience of enlightenment? Cannot be described, it is beyond name and form, perception and conception, subject and object.

Edited June 23, 2010 by dwai

[Starjumper]

Notice I said that enlightenment is the loss of identification with ALL concepts, ideas and beliefs. This includes the belief that there is a "present". This loss of identification with all concepts, ideas and beliefs also includes losing the belief that there is a superior path.

 

Some paths are WAY superior to others, it's just that they aren't sorted by religion. Within most religions there is a spectrum of sects that runs from fundamentalist to spiritual, with the spiritual ones being the most likely to cause enlightenment; yet among them some are superior to others as well. Which religion it comes from has nothing to do with it.

 

Nor does having views and preferences block the chance of having an enlightenment experience.

[Vajrahridaya]

Hi Vajrahridaya and All

 

 

 

Notice I said that enlightenment is the loss of identification with ALL concepts, ideas and beliefs. This includes the belief that there is a "present". This loss of identification with all concepts, ideas and beliefs also includes losing the belief that there is a superior path.

 

Love!

 

The superior path is one that has more variables in methodology, more history of non-violence, more clear explanations about the nature of things, and has more enlightened beings who have traversed it.

 

Buddhadharma.

 

If an individual is awake, then they experience directly the true nature of things and that is dependent origination/emptiness. They do not take refuge in an all pervasive cosmic essence. The Buddha said this specifically in the Suttas, "if there was a universal essence to take refuge in for liberation, then I would teach this, but since there is not, I do not teach this."

Edited June 23, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[CarsonZi]

Hi Starjumper7 and All

 

Some paths are WAY superior to others,

 

Hahaha....yeah I guess you're right. "The Superior Path" is the one that causes you to awaken

 

Love!

[adept]

New agist dogma.

 

You lack study in sutta and sutra.

 

You are missing the wisdom of "right view" which the Buddha taught.

 

Take care.

 

 

My view is fine thank you. It's just not blinkered like yours.

[Starjumper]

The superior path is one that has ... more history of non-violence, more clear explanations about the nature of things.

 

The ratio of enlightenment among martial artists who meditate is MUCH higher than in those who just meditate. Those who meditate and don't practice MA have about the same ratio of enlightenment as the general public. By MA I mean the killing arts, not the sport ones.

 

Also, absolutely no explanations of anything EVER are required.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Starjumper7

[Vajrahridaya]

My view is fine thank you. It's just not blinkered like yours.

 

What's "blinkered"?

 

Anyway... it's not my view, it's "right view" as presented by the wheel turning Buddha and succeeding Buddhas. As well as what are called the Primordial Buddhas who represent the different families manifesting as the self-liberated aspect of the 5 main elements, as in the pure activity of these qualities.