Dzogchen (and Buddhism) Summarized

[RongzomFan]

This is my understanding of Dzogchen. If you understand Dzogchen completely, you automatically understand the entirety of buddhism completely, atleast from the Mahayana viewpoint. Also, you cannot combine Dzogchen with any other system except hatha and pranayama.

 

First thing in Dzogchen is to repeat the following. You cannot skip this.

 

"I go for refuge to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

By the merit I primordially have by abiding in the natural state, may I attain perfect Buddhahood to benefit infinite sentient beings."

 

Rigpa has two main wisdoms, Kadag and lhun grub. There is also a third wisdom, thugs rje (compassion), which is merely the inseparability of the other two.

 

Kadag (primordial purity) is simply how the highest Dzogchen view talks about emptiness.

Lhun grub (natural formation) is simply how Dzogchen talks about dependent origination.

 

And of course throughout Mahayana, emptiness and dependent origination are two sides of the same coin.

 

This is why I said earlier that if you understand Dzogchen, you understand buddhism.

 

The lhun grub aspect of rigpa should be ignored by everyone here. This has to do with secretive esoteric yogas that self-liberate the dependently originated human body into the Sambhogakaya.

 

The symbol of Dzogchen is a Tibetan A wrapped in a rainbow thigle (google images "thigle"). The A represents kadag while the thigle represents lhun grub.

 

Ok so in Dzogchen, the fundamental point of the natural state/nonduality or what many of you call enlightenment is to distinguish rigpa from sems (mind). The distinguishing of rigpa and sems from each other is emphasized by Jigme Lingpa and goes back to the Seventeen Tantras.

 

Dzogchen is the only teaching that uses rigpa as the basis of the path. Other teachings take mind as the basis of the path. The mind ITSELF is considered an obscuration in Dzogchen. The Dalai Lama tries to reconcile Dzogchen with other buddhist teachings by sometimes considering rigpa an aspect of subtle mind, but this should be considered in context.

[C T]

The OP's sincerity in putting this up is commendable.

 

What i cannot understand is why offer this summary? It really does not encompass the Dzogchen path fully, and may lead to unnecessary misguidance due to incomplete information. Is this really helpful i wonder? There are volumes of teachings around Dzogchen, and it takes a practitioner months, if not years, of Ngondro practice and the attendance of at least one or two 3-month retreats (or ideally to complete one 1-year retreat) before being ready for the specific Dzogchen empowerments. Maybe i am a traditionalist at heart, but i am quite certain other Dzogcheners here would attest to this.

 

And btw, your summary is not even accurately presented, having missed some of the most fundamental key aspects, like the critical explanation of the nine vehicles, namely the 3 outer sutra vehicles, the 3 outer tantras, and the 3 inner tantras. These alone form the introductory stages of the path, which if not understood and assimilated, one cannot expect to move further up the path.

 

Perhaps it was an oversight on your part, and if it was, maybe you might consider expanding your summary by incorporating a more expansive explanation of the nine vehicles, for example.

 

I still maintain though that this post is quite irrelevant, and will not create the right conditions for the the appropriate intro into Dzogchen.

 

Apologies Alwayson - you are free to post whatever you like to, i know, but there are some things we really ought to reflect/ponder in greater depth before putting them up.

 

Sincerely.

 

 

This is just my opinion. You are free to disregard it as you please.

[RongzomFan]

Dzogchen can be practiced as completion stage or stand alone. This is not simply my opinion. Also this is not intended as a guide for practice. Just academic purposes only.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

The OP's sincerity in putting this up is commendable.

 

What i cannot understand is why offer this summary? It really does not encompass the Dzogchen path fully, and may lead to unnecessary misguidance due to incomplete information. Is this really helpful i wonder?

 

I still maintain though that this post is quite irrelevant, and will not create the right conditions for the the appropriate intro into Dzogchen.

 

Apologies Alwayson - you are free to post whatever you like to, i know, but there are some things we really ought to reflect/ponder in greater depth before putting them up.

 

Sincerely.

 

 

This is just my opinion. You are free to disregard it as you please.

 

Well, I would appreciate some entry level Dzogchen here rather than the upper level advanced esoteric finer points of being- emptiness that spill over our cyberspace here. Why not have some other input AT A MORE BASIC LEVEL than we seem to always have. We can debate the basics too, you know. But some here get pretty snooty that only their dzogchen guru has the right path...(sigh)...

[RongzomFan]

Well, I would appreciate some entry level Dzogchen here rather than the upper level advanced esoteric finer points of being- emptiness that spill over our cyberspace here. Why not have some other input AT A MORE BASIC LEVEL than we seem to always have. We can debate the basics too, you know. But some here get pretty snooty that only their dzogchen guru has the right path...(sigh)...

 

Actually his point was the opposite. CowTao is saying I should have given the LOWER levels first instead of jumping right to the top.

Edited June 27, 2010 by alwayson

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Actually his point was the opposite. CowTao is saying I should have given the LOWER levels first instead of jumping right to the top.

Feel free...! (Maybe I mistook it for entry level because you write more um, clearly and directly than some on the subject.

Edited June 27, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Birch]

I didn't understand any of the OP.

But that would be par for course. The OP is correct and would be helpful to add some other pointers.

 

Thank you!

[RongzomFan]

If there are any specific terms you didn't understand, you can just google them.

 

Like if you don't know what "Sambhogakaya" means.

[Birch]

Thanks. i can google things and I come here because it's (tends to be, although lately I wonder) a good one stop shop for such. Especially when folks are in a mind to explain terms very simply. The other issue with "googling" things is that I risk running into false/erroneous definitions and will have to spend even more time on it. Point of TTB's (I thought ) is/was to aid as a clearing house of sorts. Sure, I can go google but, do you get my drift?

[RongzomFan]

If you let me know what specific terms you didn't understand I can address it.

Edited June 27, 2010 by alwayson

[Birch]

Oh you're sweet!

 

Of course I have problems with terminology AND I know I do. I do my best to explain (when I remember) that what passes for meaning is simply language and has no bearing on the truth of anything at all. And yet as soon as I attribute the simplest term to even one morcel of my experience then it becomes both pointless and dead in the water (despite any moon shining on it.)

 

I'll go look up the words, I guess. Google may be the death of us.

[RongzomFan]

If you want something more academic, try the google BOOKS search. Often you can read entire passages for free.

Edited June 27, 2010 by alwayson

[Sunya]

hi alwayson,

 

Dependent origination and emptiness are not two sides of the same coin, but rather the same side. They are synonyms. This is a very good related article: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/10/dzogchen-rigpa-and-dependent.html

 

BTW, did you copy all that from the wikipedia article? Or did you write that yourself? The summary of Kadag and Lhundrub is quite wrong.

 

 

Also, anyone interested in learning about Dzogchen, I would highly recommend to start with this short article by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, one of the greatest Dzogchen masters of our time. http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/mirror.html

 

 

 

I didn't understand any of the OP.

But that would be par for course. The OP is correct and would be helpful to add some other pointers.

 

Thank you!

 

Hi Kate,

 

A good summary of Dzogchen can be learned from the 3 statements of Garab Dorje. I will quote Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche on this since my attempts of summarizing will be futile at best

 

The Dzogchen Master Garab Dorje "was the first master of Dzogchen, who himself received transmission through direct visionary contact with the Sambhogakaya. Dzogchen teachings were taught for the first time on this planet in this time cycle by Garab Dorje, who manifested a birth in a Nirmanakaya form as a human being in the third century B.C.E., in the country of Ogyen, which was situated to the north west of India. He spent his life there teaching to both human beings and the dakinis. His final teaching before he entered the Body of Light was to summarise the teachings in Three Principles, sometimes known as "The Three Last Statements of Garab Dorje." He left behind this testament for all the Dzogchen practitioners of the future. The Three Statements of Garab Dorje are:

 

"Introduce in the state directly" refers to the transmission by the master, who, in various ways, introduces and brings the disciple to understand the condition of "what is", the individual's primordial state. This is the Base.

 

"Do not remain in doubt" means that one must have a precise knowledge of this state, finding the state of the presence of contemplation which is one and the same in all the thousands of possible experiences. This is the Path.

 

"Continue in the profound knowledge of self-liberation" is the Fruit. That means, the complete and unchangeable knowledge of self-liberation is totally integrated with one's daily life and in all circumstances one continues in that state. All the hundreds and hundreds of original texts of Dzogchen can be considered to be an explanation of these three verses of Garab Dorje."

 

From "The Crystal and the Way of Light" and "Dzogchen, the Self-Perfected State" - by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

 

 

Any terminology that you don't understand, I'd try my best to clarify... though someone more experienced, like Vajrahridaya or CowTao, might provide better clarification.

Edited June 27, 2010 by mikaelz

[RongzomFan]

The summary of Kadag and Lhundrub is quite wrong.

 

 

like?

 

Keep in mind, I have ran my understanding by someone a LOT more knowledgeable than all of us. I am pretty sure I am reasonably correct. Actually it is the same guy you cited.

Edited June 27, 2010 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Feel free...!

 

 

If you understand Dzogchen, you automatically understand Mahayana completely. Dzogchen is a standalone buddhist vehicle (but can also be used as a completion stage) that was divinely revealed by the Buddhas, so it is not necessary to go through every lower level of understanding. Dzogchen view is authorative and definitive. Every other vehicle leads to the goal, yet Dzogchen is this goal itself of Mahayana. All lower levels of understanding are self-liberated into Dzogchen.

Edited June 27, 2010 by alwayson

[goldisheavy]

This is my understanding of Dzogchen. If you understand Dzogchen completely, you automatically understand the entirety of buddhism completely, atleast from the Mahayana viewpoint. Also, you cannot combine Dzogchen with any other system except hatha and pranayama.

 

First thing in Dzogchen is to repeat the following. You cannot skip this.

 

"I go for refuge to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

By the merit I primordially have by abiding in the natural state, may I attain perfect Buddhahood to benefit infinite sentient beings."

 

Rigpa has two main wisdoms, Kadag and lhun grub. There is also a third wisdom, thugs rje (compassion), which is merely the inseparability of the other two.

 

Kadag (primordial purity) is simply how the highest Dzogchen view talks about emptiness.

Lhun grub (natural formation) is simply how Dzogchen talks about dependent origination.

 

And of course throughout Mahayana, emptiness and dependent origination are two sides of the same coin.

 

This is why I said earlier that if you understand Dzogchen, you understand buddhism.

 

The lhun grub aspect of rigpa should be ignored by everyone here. This has to do with secretive esoteric yogas that self-liberate the dependently originated human body into the Sambhogakaya.

 

The symbol of Dzogchen is a Tibetan A wrapped in a rainbow thigle (google images "thigle"). The A represents kadag while the thigle represents lhun grub.

 

Ok so in Dzogchen, the fundamental point of the natural state/nonduality or what many of you call enlightenment is to distinguish rigpa from sems (mind). The distinguishing of rigpa and sems from each other is emphasized by Jigme Lingpa and goes back to the Seventeen Tantras.

 

Dzogchen is the only teaching that uses rigpa as the basis of the path. Other teachings take mind as the basis of the path. The mind ITSELF is considered an obscuration in Dzogchen. The Dalai Lama tries to reconcile Dzogchen with other buddhist teachings by sometimes considering rigpa an aspect of subtle mind, but this should be considered in context.

 

Dzogchen doesn't view mind as an obscuration. The people who talk about mind really need to distinguish the mind from the mindset. A mindset can be part of an obscuration, but never the mind itself, which is nothing in particular, unlike a mindset, which is something particular.

[Sunya]

like?

 

Keep in mind, I have ran my understanding by someone a LOT more knowledgeable than all of us. I am pretty sure I am reasonably correct. Actually it is the same guy you cited.

 

You're right, never mind. i was thinking of a different interpretation of Kadak and Lhundrup. Some teachers use different translations for methodological purposes. I think you're absolutely right that the essence of Dzogchen is the essence of Buddhism. This is why Dzogchen is a complete vehicle.. but I just want to add that Dzogchen traditionally is trekcho and thogal which are very advanced practices. 99% of people will not be able to start with trekcho and will instead have to do concentration practice, mind training, and psychological healing to let go of hinderances. So they aren't really doing Dzogchen then. That's why no Dzogchen teacher starts out with trekcho. Even Namkhai Norbu teaches shamata/vipashyana and Tantra.

Edited June 27, 2010 by mikaelz

[ralis]

Well, I would appreciate some entry level Dzogchen here rather than the upper level advanced esoteric finer points of being- emptiness that spill over our cyberspace here. Why not have some other input AT A MORE BASIC LEVEL than we seem to always have. We can debate the basics too, you know. But some here get pretty snooty that only their dzogchen guru has the right path...(sigh)...

 

Hi Songs,

 

The Buddhists that post here have done a disservice to the understanding of Dzogchen. I was doing retreats with Namkhai Norbu in the late 80's and in the very first retreat it was all pointed out to me. Also, he is non sectarian and teaches that your real nature can be found in any practice or religion. Vajraji et al treat Norbu as if he were their father. Norbu is not interested in praise, parental adornment or any accolades from fawning idiots.

 

This idea of preaching ad infinitum (dependent origination and emptiness) is insane! Furthermore, contemplating too tightly on concepts such as (dependent origination, emptiness etc.)as these apologists suggest can lead to much mental and physical stress. Relaxing into all phenomena is key. They have missed what real contemplation is.

 

Contemplation is relaxing and withdrawing perceptions back from the external world and know that your experience is internal, although internal, is not a very precise location. Too much external analysis causes one much stress. The idea is to find that in between state. When one is relaxed and not too relaxed, then thoughts return to their natural state i.e, energy. There is nothing to accept or reject, just be with it.

 

Dzogchen i.e, non dualism or no separation is about discovering ones true nature and that is found by relaxing into one's mind stream. Energy and clear light.

 

This is not always easy and I may not have explained it well. This state is completely experiential and is very difficult to transmit verbally.

 

I will put together some material and post tomorrow. Somehow, I feel Vajraji looking over my shoulder.

 

 

ralis

[ralis]

Dependent origination and emptiness are synonyms. Kadag and Lhundrub are taking about slightly different things. Where did you read Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche teaching what you said?

 

Here's a quote from a teacher, Lama Surya Das, who I tend not to recommend too much since he waters his teachings down, but in this particular case he clarifies very well:

 

 

 

http://www.dzogchen.org/teachings/talks/ndtapp.htm

 

Though I would say that even a highly acclaimed teacher like Surya Das tends to see Rigpa "as everyone and everything, and as any and every form and occurrence . . . everything is it" -- This is Advaita not Dzogchen.

 

All appearances are primordially pure yet spontaneously manifesting. Identifying everything with 'It' is wrong. There is no 'it'.

 

 

Here is your problem with Dzogchen. You work backwards from the judgment, there is no "it". What you ask is for one to accept this on some kind of provisional faith and then somehow realize it at a later date. Norbu never taught this way. Only through realizing one's true nature would lead one to what you have stated. You are helping no one.

 

 

ralis

Edited June 27, 2010 by ralis

[Sunya]

Here is your problem with Dzogchen. You work backwards from the judgment, there is no "it". What you ask is for one to accept this on some kind of provisional faith and then somehow realize it at a later date. Norbu never taught this way. Only through realizing one's true nature would lead one to what you have stated. You are helping no one.

 

 

ralis

 

Norbu never taught this way? I don't claim to be Norbu, but he does teach you need faith. It's written in his commentaries on Garab Dorje's 3 statements. How can you receive pointing out if you don't have faith? I'm not claiming to be giving any direct introduction here... but studying the theory of Dzogchen is absolutely necessary. Unless you have wonderful conditions (where the teacher can point out Rigpa instantly to you due to your past experiences) you'll have to study and understand. Dzogchen is never taught outside of the Buddhist teachings. Norbu Rinpoche tells everyone to read The Precious Vase. This book lays out the foundation, the theory, which is absolutely necessary to go deep into the practice. The essence of the theory is emptiness and dependent origination. These have different names within the context of Dzogchen, but as alwayson said, are exactly the same as the essence of Buddhism itself.

 

To reiterate, philosophical understanding is absolutely necessary to understand Dzogchen. The way it is taught is usually of the Semde (mind) series. This involves understanding the theory and performing practice. The other series' (Longde: Space, Menngade: secret oral instructions) are advanced and require you to already have experience with Rigpa. Semde is about introducing yourself to Rigpa.

 

If you had an early experience that didn't require you to understand the theory first, then that's great for you (if what you experienced was actually Rigpa in the first place). Don't assume that your luck transcends to everyone else who practices.

Edited June 27, 2010 by mikaelz

[goldisheavy]

Hi Songs,

 

The Buddhists that post here have done a disservice to the understanding of Dzogchen. I was doing retreats with Namkhai Norbu in the late 80's and in the very first retreat it was all pointed out to me. Also, he is non sectarian and teaches that your real nature can be found in any practice or religion. Vajraji et al treat Norbu as if he were their father. Norbu is not interested in praise, parental adornment or any accolades from fawning idiots.

 

This idea of preaching ad infinitum (dependent origination and emptiness) is insane! Furthermore, contemplating too tightly on concepts such as (dependent origination, emptiness etc.)as these apologists suggest can lead to much mental and physical stress. Relaxing into all phenomena is key. They have missed what real contemplation is.

 

Contemplation is relaxing and withdrawing perceptions back from the external world and know that your experience is internal, although internal, is not a very precise location. Too much external analysis causes one much stress. The idea is to find that in between state. When one is relaxed and not too relaxed, then thoughts return to their natural state i.e, energy. There is nothing to accept or reject, just be with it.

 

Dzogchen i.e, non dualism or no separation is about discovering ones true nature and that is found by relaxing into one's mind stream. Energy and clear light.

 

This is not always easy and I may not have explained it well. This state is completely experiential and is very difficult to transmit verbally.

 

I will put together some material and post tomorrow. Somehow, I feel Vajraji looking over my shoulder.

 

 

ralis

 

Well said. Some people get hung up on an anti-concept attitude. The point is that if you make denial of concepts your dogma, that's just another concept. Medicine turns to poison. The antidote to that is to join the extremes together: non-conceptual and concepts are one. Concepts have non-conceptual features. Non-conceptual realities have conceptual features. Everything is joined at the hip. In fact, one of the Dzogchen tantras is even called "Seven Nails." If you want wisdom, you need to see the non-duality of polarities, the non-duality of complements. So if one strongly separates and polarizes conceptual from non-conceptual, that's not wisdom at all, that's delusion and you're back to square one again.

 

The mind is not the mindset. The mind is Buddha. The mind is not what you think it is -- that would be what your mindset has to say about mind. The non-production of concepts toward Buddha is the same as non-production of concepts toward mind because mind is Buddha.

 

And the reason this teaching about mind is beautiful is because everyone has mind. This teaching is thus instantly familiar and accessible. Sure, we have opinions about our mind which obscure what our mind really is beyond those opinions of ours. To undo those takes some practice, contemplation, and trial and error. And by practice I don't mean something routine, like meditate every day in the morning. I mean something where you actively investigate the mind. What is mind? What is not mind? Is there something that's not mind? What is mindset? You have to investigate this for yourself. You can't just sit 1 hour a day and get it. No way. You can't be passive about this. Once you do get it, then you can be passive all you want. But so long as you think that mind is in your head, that mind is here and the world is there, you got work to do.

Edited June 27, 2010 by goldisheavy

[ralis]

Norbu never taught this way? I don't claim to be Norbu, but he does teach you need faith. It's written in his commentaries on Garab Dorje's 3 statements. How can you receive pointing out if you don't have faith? I'm not claiming to be giving any direct introduction here... but studying the theory of Dzogchen is absolutely necessary. Unless you have wonderful conditions (where the teacher can point out Rigpa instantly to you due to your past experiences) you'll have to study and understand. Dzogchen is never taught outside of the Buddhist teachings. Norbu Rinpoche tells everyone to read The Precious Vase. This book lays out the foundation, the theory, which is absolutely necessary to go deep into the practice.

 

I remember him specifically stating to not continue in doubt. Honestly, I had received the transmission from him almost 1 year before I met him in person. Faith had nothing to do with it.

 

 

ralis

Edited June 27, 2010 by ralis

[ralis]

Well said. Some people get hung up on an anti-concept attitude. The point is that if you make denial of concepts your dogma, that's just another concept. Medicine turns to poison. The antidote to that is to join the extremes together: non-conceptual and concepts are one. Concepts have non-conceptual features. Non-conceptual realities have conceptual features. Everything is joined at the hip. In fact, one of the Dzogchen tantras is even called "Seven Nails." If you want wisdom, you need to see the non-duality of polarities, the non-duality of complements. So if one strongly separates and polarizes conceptual from non-conceptual, that's not wisdom at all, that's delusion and you're back to square one again.

 

The mind is not the mindset. The mind is Buddha. The mind is not what you think it is -- that would be what your mindset has to say about mind. The non-production of concepts toward Buddha is the same as non-production of concepts toward mind because mind is Buddha.

 

And the reason this teaching about mind is beautiful is because everyone has mind. This teaching is thus instantly familiar and accessible. Sure, we have opinions about our mind which obscure what our mind really is beyond those opinions of ours. To undo those takes some practice, contemplation, and trial and error. And by practice I don't mean something routine, like meditate every day in the morning. I mean something where you actively investigate the mind. What is mind? What is not mind? Is there something that's not mind? What is mindset? You have to investigate this for yourself. You can't just sit 1 hour a day and get it. No way. You can't be passive about this. Once you do get it, then you can be passive all you want. But so long as you think that mind is in your head, that mind is here and the world is there, you got work to do.

 

 

I was not certain if my explanation was clear or not. Your explanation was well put.

 

ralis

[goldisheavy]

About faith:

 

One does and doesn't need faith.

 

In what sense does one need faith? One needs faith when one first hears mystical instructions and realizes they sound counter-intuitive or strange. At this point, if you don't have faith, you simply move on to another thing. You don't gain any interest in what you hear and you don't get any curiosity to follow up. That's the function of faith. Faith gets you to take something seriously enough to follow it up. It doesn't mean blind dogmatic belief.

 

In what sense one doesn't need faith? One doesn't need any faith in the sense that once you do get on your way in following up the central and deep questions, you don't have to take anyone's word for anything. You don't have to trust anything blindly. You can discover everything for yourself in the same way you find a pair of sock in the morning. So you need as much faith as to find your socks, which conventionally speaking, is "no faith required."

 

When you first hear that there is nothing that's not mind, it doesn't seem right. We believe the world is not mind. Stuff and things aren't mind. We think that tables and chairs aren't mind. Why is that? That's because we believe we know what mind is... it's something small and private, inside the head and something that thinks. It's these opinions of ours about mind that block intuition. So when you first hear an enlightening teaching, it doesn't sound right, because it contradicts what we seem to "intuitively" understand about the mind. Intuition is a conditioned factor, it changes as you learn and grow. What used to be intuitive, can stop being intuitive and what used to be counter-intuitive can become intuitive later on. So before things begin to feel intuitive, one does need to have a bit of faith to go against the grain for a while.

[ralis]

You're right, never mind. i was thinking of a different interpretation of Kadak and Lhundrup. Some teachers use different translations for methodological purposes. I think you're absolutely right that the essence of Dzogchen is the essence of Buddhism. This is why Dzogchen is a complete vehicle.. but I just want to add that Dzogchen traditionally is trekcho and thogal which are very advanced practices. 99% of people will not be able to start with trekcho and will instead have to do concentration practice, mind training, and psychological healing to let go of hinderances. So they aren't really doing Dzogchen then. That's why no Dzogchen teacher starts out with trekcho. Even Namkhai Norbu teaches shamata/vipashyana and Tantra.

 

Thekchod is taught as part of the transmission. Although, he does not always use that term. As far as the practices you mention, these are secondary if one has a problem and needs a certain practice.

 

ralis