Dzogchen (and Buddhism) Summarized

[goldisheavy]

GIH, as a communist who got banned from this forum for one week for his arrogance, I would think you would hate the centralized authority a brahma represents.

 

That's a good observation. It seems inconsistent, right? Maybe I am not really a Communist? Have you considered that possibility? I never claimed to be one, you know? When did I ever say I was a Communist?

[styrofoamdog]

ALL tibetan buddhist schools recognize Dzogchen as authoritative, even Mahamudra crazy Kagyu. Its not being fundamental. Thats just the way it is.

 

 

If you want to be a sutra guy thats fine, but don't misrepresent Dzogchen.

 

Zen has NOTHING to do with Dzogchen.

 

Is there any tantric anatomy (channels etc.) in Zen? Nope.

Direct Introduction in Zen? Nope.

Buddhahood in one lifetime in Zen? Nope.

Buddahood for females? Nope.

Does Zen take mind as the basis of the path? Yes.

Distinguishing rigpa from sems? Nope.

 

 

Zen is based on the Mahayana Sutras (look it up), while Dzogchen is based on the tantras.

 

 

P.S. Dzogchen IS Indian.

How can the natural state belong to sutras or tantras? Don't you see how foolish and irrelevant those classifications are?

 

Mahamudra is a different tradition analogous to Dzogchen, and there is some controversy in Tibet among the schools about Dzogchen's historical links to the Bon religion, and the Dalai Lama's practice of Dzogchen which is viewed as unorthodox for the Gelug school. If you knew about the history of Buddhism, you might have realized these things. Dzogchen is a tradition related to the Nyingma school and was historically not part of the others.

 

Zen does not emphasize esoteric anatomy because it is low level. However, most Mahayana sutras do speak in veiled language about esoteric transformations of the body. You would not know this because you have never actually studied Mahayana Buddhism.

 

Direct introduction in Zen: Yes, Zen is essentially about direct introduction. Haven't you even read this:

 

A special transmission outside the scriptures

Not depending upon words or letters

Pointing directly to the human mind

To see one's own nature and attain buddhahood

Buddhahood in one lifetime: Yes, there are many buddhas in the history of Zen.

Buddhahood for females: Yes, all schools of Mahayana Buddhism include this.

Distinguishing rigpa from sems: Yes, it is called Vipashyana, but it was viewed as skillful means. Just a meditation method, and not the ultimate.

 

If Dzogchen was founded in India, what school was it a part of? What is its history in India? What was its Indian name? It is not part of the history of Indian Buddhism, or if it was, it was never noticeable or relevant as a school or practice. However, as I have already explained, the analogous practice was Prajnaparamita.

 

Vajrahridaya is much better educated about Buddhism than you are, and experienced in the practice. He has already acknowledged the closeness between Zen and Dzogchen practices, which you would know about too if you actually studied Buddhism rather than trying in vain to teach things that you haven't even learned on a superficial level yourself.

[RongzomFan]

the Dalai Lama's practice of Dzogchen which is viewed as unorthodox for the Gelug school. If you knew about the history of Buddhism, you might have realized these things.

 

 

You must have been reading wikipedia. We edited that out, because it was WRONG. The greatest Dalai Lama, the fifth, practiced Dzogchen as many Gelugs have. The last rainbow body was a Gelug. His name was Khenpo Achung.

 

Dzogchen is a tradition related to the Nyingma school and was historically not part of the others.

 

 

Wrong. You don't know what you are talking about. Milarepa had Semde training for example. Dzogchen was always practiced by all four schools.

 

Buddhahood in one lifetime: Yes, there are many buddhas in the history of Zen.

 

 

Name ONE.

 

Buddhahood for females: Yes, all schools of Mahayana Buddhism include this.

 

 

Nope. Obviously you have not studied Mahayana. The sutras are pretty clear.

 

If Dzogchen was founded in India, what school was it a part of? What is its history in India? What was its Indian name? It is not part of the history of Indian Buddhism

 

You are kidding me right? So that long Indian Dzogchen lineage is made up or something? You are not correct. There is a section on wikipedia, called Indian Originators. Read it.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen#Indian_originators

 

closeness between Zen and Dzogchen practices, which you would know about too if you actually studied Buddhism rather than trying in vain to teach things that you haven't even learned on a superficial level yourself.

 

 

You have an agenda to correlate Zen and Dzogchen. Its funny how you didn't address all of my points like Zen being based on the Mahayana sutras while Dzogchen is based on the tantras.

Edited June 28, 2010 by alwayson

[ralis]

Vajra here on the other hand, doesn't take himself very seriously and is often found goofing off and horsing around, which is a great thing. So Vajrahridaya can go around claiming he's God's behind, and yet he has real humility.

 

I find that difficult to believe!

 

ralis

[Sunya]

Styro, I urge you not to continue your conversation with alwayson.. .It's like talking to a child who has something to prove. There are much more evolved people on this forum which you can converse with...You seem like a very knowledgable and good person, so please don't get sucked into his karma. He's was almost banned couple months ago during a long debate where he became very immature and emotional.

Edited June 28, 2010 by mikaelz

[RongzomFan]

Styro, I urge you not to continue your conversation with alwayson.. .It's like talking to a child who has something to prove. There are much more evolved people on this forum which you can converse with...You seem like a very knowledgable and good person, so please don't get sucked into his karma

 

 

Dude you are so arrogant. Seriously grow up.

[Sunya]

Dude you are so arrogant. Seriously grow up.

 

Do I need to remind you how you acted a couple months ago? You even volunteered to be banned. Whatever happened to that?

 

You have a huge ego problem for someone that claims to understand the essence of Buddhism, which is no-self. Stop arguing so much and go practice.

[RongzomFan]

Do I need to remind you how you acted a couple months ago? You even volunteered to be banned. Whatever happened to that?

 

You have a huge ego problem for someone that claims to understand the essence of Buddhism, which is no-self. Stop arguing so much and go practice.

 

 

I volunteered to be banned because of shit like this. Leave me alone.

 

You started on my ass with your first post on page one, in which you cited Namdrol and then you later criticized me for being a Namdrol fan. You are not right in the head. This is an obvious scientific conclusion based on logic.

Edited June 28, 2010 by alwayson

[styrofoamdog]

You must have been reading wikipedia. We edited that out, because it was WRONG.

It is not wrong, and the Gelug school has always favored its own practices and Mahamudra.

 

Wrong. You don't know what you are talking about

Alright, so can you give me a reputable source stating that Dzogchen was historically practiced in the other schools of Tibetan Buddhism as well?

 

Name ONE.

Baizhang, Mazu, Hongren, Linji, Caodong, Dogen....

 

Nope. Obviously you have not studied Mahayana. The sutras are pretty clear.

Which sutras? In the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha says clearly that there is no valid distinction between men and women regarding enlightenment and buddhahood. This is also demonstrated by the female nagakanya becoming a buddha instantly. This is an important source for Mahayana Buddhist canon and always played an important role in establishing the ability of women to achieve buddhahood in Mahayana. It is also often cited by academics as the definitive proof that Mahayana accepts women as buddhas.

 

You are kidding me right? So that long Indian Dzogchen lineage is made up or something? You are not correct. There is a section on wikipedia, called Indian Originators. Read it.

It is extremely dubious, with most people supposedly living for hundreds of years. There is no actual contemporaneous history of Dzogchen in India, from any sources. Try to give me a source that pre-dates the introduction of Buddhism to Tibet by Padmasambhava. There are none, because Dzogchen is essentially a Tibetan tradition. There are no records of it before Tibet.

 

You have an agenda to correlate Zen and Dzogchen. Its funny how you didn't address all of my points.

I have an agenda to dispel ignorance about basic Buddhism. I've addressed all your points, and you are still extremely ignorant about the simplest history and teachings of Buddhism. If you actually read the sutras, you might learn something or develop some ability to see the relationships between the different traditions.

[Sunya]

I volunteered to be banned because of shit like this. Leave me alone.

 

Really? Just calm down.

 

I will take the 90 day considering I was overly rude in this thread.

 

 

 

You started on my ass with your first post on page one, in which you cited Namdrol and then you later criticized me for being a Namdrol fan. You are not right in the head. This is an obvious scientific conclusion based on logic.

 

 

Namdrol is an awesome teacher but that isn't the issue. It's that you cling to his authority without understanding the teachings experientially. That's what everyone is pointing out to you.

Edited June 28, 2010 by mikaelz

[RongzomFan]

Styro,

 

Read my points above CAREFULLY and respond. I welcome a discussion that is based on FACTS.

[styrofoamdog]

Styro, I urge you not to continue your conversation with alwayson.. .It's like talking to a child who has something to prove. There are much more evolved people on this forum which you can converse with...You seem like a very knowledgable and good person, so please don't get sucked into his karma. He's was almost banned couple months ago during a long debate where he became very immature and emotional.

Thanks, I appreciate that there are some people watching who can see this thread for what it is.

[RongzomFan]

mikaelz,

 

I never start anything. Yes I will respond to others if they go after me.

 

You are a creepy stalker.

Edited June 28, 2010 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Thanks, I appreciate that there are some people watching who can see this thread for what it is.

 

 

Nice way to admit you have nothing to respond with.

[RongzomFan]

I am not trying to be overly rude to Styro, but since his first post he has been trying to say Dzogchen is inferior to Zen.

 

Look at his posts, from the first one.

 

Why is that fucking ok?

 

And it isn't even based in facts. I can accept facts.

Edited June 28, 2010 by alwayson

[Sunya]

Nice way to admit you have nothing to respond with.

 

Why are you arguing incessantly? I gave you a link prior where Namdrol said that the realization of Dzogchen is not above Dependent Origination, which is, and always was, the goal of all Buddhist schools. http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/10/dzogchen-rigpa-and-dependent.html

 

Since Namdrol is a very experience Dzogchen practitioner, and a Sakya Loppon, can you give it a rest?

 

I am not trying to be overly rude to Styro, but since his first post he has been trying to say Dzogchen is inferior to Zen.

 

Inferior? I don't see that. What I saw was him bringing Dzogchen down to earth and saying it's essence is the same as Zen and all Mahayana schools that aim for realization of Emptiness.

Edited June 28, 2010 by mikaelz

[RongzomFan]

I get pissed when people lie about buddhism.

 

Yeah I think Styro is outright lieing to make Zen and Dzoghchen equal. I said it.

[RongzomFan]

[RongzomFan]

What is the last Zen practitioner to achieve rainbow body, if Zen and Dzogchen are the same?

[Sunya]

Oh really? Read this

 

There is more. Why don't you read this thread, before riding my ass?

 

 

Then you should discuss what Rigpa actually is and is not compared to his statement, instead of arguing inecessantly for the superiority of Dzogchen over Sutra paths by making blanket statements.

Edited June 28, 2010 by mikaelz

[goldisheavy]

I find that difficult to believe!

 

ralis

 

Not I. Someone who takes oneself seriously is a lot more careful about what they say, since they have a reputation to guard. Such person can't speak off-the-cuff and can't really mention intimate experiences, which would expose a vulnerability.

[RongzomFan]

mikaelz,

 

 

And I describe rigpa in the very first post in pretty simple language, in which other people like, TheSongsofDistantEarth, admitted it was simple language. Read his comments on the first page.

Edited June 28, 2010 by alwayson

[Sunya]

What is the last Zen practitioner to achieve rainbow body, if Zen and Dzogchen are the same?

 

Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche wrote a book on Zen and said that it [and all Sutra paths] reaches the same realization of emptiness as Dzogchen but does not achieve Rainbow Body, but the same can be said for Mahamudra because the practice of 'thogal' is specific to the Dzogchen lineage. If thogal is the only practice that leads to Rainbow Body, then yes Dzogchen is the only path that gets you there. But this is questionable, who knows? You?

 

It's also worth noting that 99% of people will be lucky to even have a taste of emptiness during their meditative careers, much less have a chance at Rainbow Body. It's also questionable whether this is truly the 'highest goal' as is espoused in Dzogchen. When you have full realization of emptiness, you're enlightened. Gaining the rainbow body is really just icing on the cake and not everyone might want that. It's more like a super super power since you have full manifestation. Nothing really to do with enlightenment, as I see it.

Edited June 28, 2010 by mikaelz

[goldisheavy]

Baizhang, Mazu, Hongren, Linji, Caodong, Dogen....

 

I concur. There are a ton of awesome teachers in the Zen tradition and I would have no problem putting a lot of them on the same level as any of the Vajrayana Buddhas.

 

Which sutras? In the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha says clearly that there is no valid distinction between men and women regarding enlightenment and buddhahood. This is also demonstrated by the female nagakanya becoming a buddha instantly. This is an important source for Mahayana Buddhist canon and always played an important role in establishing the ability of women to achieve buddhahood in Mahayana. It is also often cited by academics as the definitive proof that Mahayana accepts women as buddhas.

 

Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra is also good in this regard.

 

It is extremely dubious, with most people supposedly living for hundreds of years. There is no actual contemporaneous history of Dzogchen in India, from any sources. Try to give me a source that pre-dates the introduction of Buddhism to Tibet by Padmasambhava. There are none, because Dzogchen is essentially a Tibetan tradition. There are no records of it before Tibet.

 

Plus there is a thing in Tibet with Bonpos claiming to have their very own, independent, and much more ancient than supposedly Indian transmission of Dzogchen. I hold Bon Dzogchen texts with the same respect as I do Buddhist ones. I also think it's unfortunate that Bonpos got bullied so much by the Buddhists that they essentially had to convert Bon into a fifth branch of Buddhism to survive. So if we believe the indigenous Bonpos, then yes, Dzogchen is indeed Tibetan, or to be even more exact, it comes from a magical land that's adjoining Tibet and that geographically doesn't quite exist.

Edited June 28, 2010 by goldisheavy

[RongzomFan]

michaelz

 

So Zen and Dzogchen are not the same, because Zen lacks tantric anatomy which leads to rainbow body.

 

I said that pages ago.

Edited June 28, 2010 by alwayson