Dzogchen (and Buddhism) Summarized

[Pero]

1. A person is capable of both Mahayana and Vajrayana. Does that make both the paths "same" for him considering neither is relatively "high" or "low" with respect to each other for him?

 

No, Vajrayana is superior then. It's like if you wanted to go to Rome. You'd need a vehicle. Let's say you know how to fly a plane, drive a car and ride a bike. So the superior way would be to fly the plane because that'll get you there faster. It would be silly to go with a bike if you can fly a plane. On the other hand if you only know how to ride a bike, it's not possible for you to go with a car or plane.

 

 

2. Or is "high" and "low" determined on the basis of side-effects like Mikael pointed out? Jalus, Rainbow body, Siddhis, higher Kayas etc.?

 

I don't think so.

 

Another question I implied earlier was whether the yanas were of progressive nature? In other words, if one takes the yana system of Vajrayana, Hinayana and Sutrayana are used as precursors to Mantra and Tantra yanas using these yanas as preperatory steps to get to Vajrayana, Atiyoga and other supposedly "higher" teachings.

 

Vajrayana, Mantrayana, Tantrayana - these are all synonyms. Sutrayana is like the base, the foundation. If it's non-existant, for most of us it will be really difficult if not impossible to practice Vajrayana.

 

and on the other side there is also the same realization at the end of each of the yanas.

 

Well I think there's some debate over that. Firstly there is a difference between Mahayana and Hinayana realisation. And then Vajrayana says that through common Mahayana you can only reach the 10th bhumi, but not the 11th, 12th or 13th. These are all Buddhahood already, but the 13th is highest. But I don't really understand the differences between them.

 

Other than the relative highness or lowness of teaching based on what works for who and how well, there is no real hierarchy in these yanas - Is that what you are suggesting here?

 

No no, that's not what I wanted to say. From the POV of a person, his capacity, what is superior is what works for him. But if you take all the paths together then there is a hierarchy, like in your 1st question.

 

Basically, the difference between high/low teachings is in the methods and speed. Vajrayana is also called the path of skillful means if I'm not mistaken. This is because it has numerous methods, which work quickly, that Sutrayana lacks. Though in this thread someone is saying that Buddhahood is achieved in one lifetime in Sutra too, I really don't think that's the case. Because in Sutra you have to accumulate merits and wisdom for many many lifetimes before you can achieve Buddhahood. While in Highest Yoga Tantra this can be done in one lifetime.

[Pero]

Whose conclusions they are is not important. What's important is that they are wrong.

 

You're just hilarious.

[Raymond Wolter]

No, Vajrayana is superior then. It's like if you wanted to go to Rome. You'd need a vehicle. Let's say you know how to fly a plane, drive a car and ride a bike. So the superior way would be to fly the plane because that'll get you there faster. It would be silly to go with a bike if you can fly a plane. On the other hand if you only know how to ride a bike, it's not possible for you to go with a car or plane.

 

 

 

 

I don't think so.

 

 

 

Vajrayana, Mantrayana, Tantrayana - these are all synonyms. Sutrayana is like the base, the foundation. If it's non-existant, for most of us it will be really difficult if not impossible to practice Vajrayana.

 

 

 

Well I think there's some debate over that. Firstly there is a difference between Mahayana and Hinayana realisation. And then Vajrayana says that through common Mahayana you can only reach the 10th bhumi, but not the 11th, 12th or 13th. These are all Buddhahood already, but the 13th is highest. But I don't really understand the differences between them.

 

 

 

No no, that's not what I wanted to say. From the POV of a person, his capacity, what is superior is what works for him. But if you take all the paths together then there is a hierarchy, like in your 1st question.

 

Basically, the difference between high/low teachings is in the methods and speed. Vajrayana is also called the path of skillful means if I'm not mistaken. This is because it has numerous methods, which work quickly, that Sutrayana lacks. Though in this thread someone is saying that Buddhahood is achieved in one lifetime in Sutra too, I really don't think that's the case. Because in Sutra you have to accumulate merits and wisdom for many many lifetimes before you can achieve Buddhahood. While in Highest Yoga Tantra this can be done in one lifetime.

 

 

Thanks Pero. This is clearly reflective of what I have heard from many Lamas and texts of Vajrayana, be it Dzogchen or Mahamudra. Gold will probably disagree with a part of this. Ajahn Chah says something very similar to what Gold wrote here, let me see if I can find his quote. So clearly there are two opinions on the subject of Yanas.

[goldisheavy]

And then Vajrayana says that through common Mahayana you can only reach the 10th bhumi, but not the 11th, 12th or 13th.

 

You must be daft. I just gave you a quote a few posts earlier of a genuine, authentic Vajrayana text that laughs at the notion of bhumis.

[Pero]

You must be daft.

 

Well now, here's a word I've never heard before.

 

I just gave you a quote a few posts earlier of a genuine, authentic Vajrayana text that laughs at the notion of bhumis.

 

Oh really? I don't see anything like that in what you quoted.

And since we're on the subject, I don't see anything like what you've said about the Nang-jang either.

[goldisheavy]

Oh really? I don't see anything like that in what you quoted.

And since we're on the subject, I don't see anything like what you've said about the Nang-jang either.

 

Have you tried looking?

[Pero]

Have you tried looking?

 

I looked again just to be sure. It's trivial for this discussion.

And, you really have to be careful when reading such texts. But in any case I don't want to get involved in a debate with you because I see no benefit in it.

[goldisheavy]

I looked again just to be sure. It's trivial for this discussion.

And, you really have to be careful when reading such texts. But in any case I don't want to get involved in a debate with you because I see no benefit in it.

 

OK, so you've got nothing. Got it.

[gendao]

You must have been reading wikipedia. We edited that out, because it was WRONG. The greatest Dalai Lama, the fifth, practiced Dzogchen as many Gelugs have. The last rainbow body was a Gelug. His name was Khenpo Achung.

Interesting, I think I was once a Gelug monk or tulku. I had an unplanned regression a few years ago where I was at a monastery and saw other monks wearing those funny yellow-fringed, fish head hats...

[Vajrahridaya]

Vajrayana is too big of a thing to say that. You can be specific instead. It's much better to be specific than to be hand-wavy like you are. Now, if I remember correctly, The All-Creating King Tantra does criticize everything in Buddhism, not just sutra!

 

Maybe someone can post some of it. Screw it. This time I should put my laziness aside and that someone will be me.

 

I am quoting starting from page 144 of the English translation of The Supreme Source:

 

 

 

This speaks for itself. Oh yea, my wife narrated this for me as I typed, so I can't take all the credit for myself. You guys and gals can thank my wife for this one.

 

This is a translation that needs to be contextualized which ChNNR does in the same book. He say's this is referring to one's mind, that one's mind is Samantabhadra and it's not equated with a universal essence like Brahman. ChNNR does say this. He is not talking about God. People like you mis-contextualize and confuse people.

[C T]

Hi Vaj..

 

I would like to hear your take on the nine vehicles, if you are ok with it. If not, thats fine.

 

Thanks.

[Vajrahridaya]

Was that "The Tao Bums" universe? I hope you see the humor in that one.

 

 

ralis

 

Yes I do... but no. I had this experience in 94'.

[Vajrahridaya]

Hi Vaj..

 

I would like to hear your take on the nine vehicles, if you are ok with it. If not, thats fine.

 

Thanks.

 

What? Like a boxing match? :lol:

 

Kidding... I would love to. Let's see how inspiration goes? At some point. I was just not here for the vast majority of this debate and don't really have the time this week due to 4th of July coming up and lots of work out on the beach to get into. Sometime... the right time. Thanks for your interest though. I would like to at some point do a commentary on the Kunjed Gyalpo which many subjective realists seem to integrate into their view, confusing many about the real meaning. It seems that so many that read that book completely miss ChNNR's little comment on how it's referencing each individuals mind, as well as the infinite interrelations of minds and is not talking about a universal substance, but rather that the essence of realization is located in understanding one's mind. Buddhism still doesn't reify a primary source, and it sees endlessly infinite and individually dependently originated minds. As in every individual is infinite but interdependent with all other infinites, as in the infinitude of infinites or infinite infinites. Sounds like splitting hairs, but that's what all this is, is hair splitting, deep, complex simplicity.

[Sunya]

This is a translation that needs to be contextualized which ChNNR does in the same book. He say's this is referring to one's mind, that one's mind is Samantabhadra and it's not equated with a universal essence like Brahman. ChNNR does say this. He is not talking about God. People like you mis-contextualize and confuse people.

 

Vaj, nobody is talking about that. Gold quoted that to show that even Dzogchen looks down on other vehicles as less superior. It's just a habit of schools to look down on other schools, and the quote shows how Dzogchen looks down on the Tantras as inferior. Nobody is mis-contextualizing.

 

It really would be helpful to catch up with the discussion before participating.

Edited June 29, 2010 by mikaelz

[Sunya]

Though in this thread someone is saying that Buddhahood is achieved in one lifetime in Sutra too, I really don't think that's the case. Because in Sutra you have to accumulate merits and wisdom for many many lifetimes before you can achieve Buddhahood. While in Highest Yoga Tantra this can be done in one lifetime.

 

This is why I don't talk to too many Tibetan practitioners. It's extremely difficult to get the essence of the Tibetan path without also getting brainwashed by the cultural elitist aspects of Tibetan culture.

 

Who said you have to accumulate merits and wisdom for many lifetimes? All Buddhist schools use varying combinations of Shamata and Vipashana. Just because Vajrayana plays with chakras and energy doesn't make it any better. The channels get naturally purified, and prana enters the central channel, when you do Shamata/Vipashyana.

 

It really just seems that Vajrayana is for those that like to obsess with details and feel that they are superior. Tibetans were warlike people with huge egos. The "fastest, quickest, best path with all the bells and whistles and colors and lights" is what suited those people. Doesn't make any of those things true. Tibetans like(d) to look down on others. They were a powerful kingdom and needed to retain that sense of superiority. Buddhism had to adapt to that cultural mindset. Americans have the same problem, no wonder Tibetan Buddhism is growing here. Not saying it's a bad path, but the cultural aspects really need to go. Much of it comes down to questioning old sutras which were written during these times.

[styrofoamdog]

I'd like to remind everyone about the history of Mahayana and Vajrayana in India. In the earliest esoteric texts, there is no mention of Vajrayana, nor esoteric Buddhism being a different vehicle from Mahayana. In the first texts such as the Vairocanabhisambodhi Tantra, they simply call it the Mantra Path. They also do not claim that it is superior to Mahayana. The Shingon school still practices these earlier esoteric teachings that predate those of Tibetan Buddhism. There are some Buddhists in China who also use these original tantras.

 

In the later tantras, they use the term "Vajrayana" and they attempt to make the case for its superiority over traditional Mahayana. Then they also added things like stages 11-13, which traditionally did not exist. In Mahayana Buddhism the 10th stage was always the top stage for a bodhisattva, and after that he could become a buddha. The difference between the two movements in India was more a cultural one, though, because this esoteric approach came from Hindu tantra. It did not exist in Mahayana Buddhism prior to this. Because there was this cultural conflict within Buddhism, they needed to have claims of superiority to keep the tradition alive.

 

However, Mahayana Buddhism also had esoteric techniques, and many at that. These include mantra recitation, mudras, complex visualizations, deity yoga as buddhanusmrti, etc. The difference is that they did not treat these things as secrets only passed down from a guru, or as separate yoga exercises. They taught them as teachings of the Buddha in the sutras. Therefore, even in the earliest Mahayana texts there are many esoteric techniques including those for the Bardo state found in the practices of Amitabha Buddha. These things were secrets "out in the open", but if you didn't have wisdom, you could not understand the sutra enough to see these things.

 

To this date, I remain skeptical of exactly what Vajrayana offers that is new and different. I only see a few things. Off the top of my head...

 

1. Use of mandalas

2. Use of seed syllables

3. Guru as the teacher instead of Buddha

4. Everything is very secretive

5. Fascination with mysticism and the supernatural

6. Sexual techniques

 

I don't see these as anything special or especially critical for Buddhism, which was traditionally more concerned with high-level cultivation of the mind. Then again, everyone has his or her own opinion. I just look at the history and try to use my own wisdom to distinguish what is truly beneficial and what is not.

[Pero]

...

 

Hmm interesting. I wonder where all this is coming from. Oh well, no matter.

 

This is why I don't talk to too many Tibetan practitioners.

 

I am not Tibetan.

 

It's extremely difficult to get the essence of the Tibetan path without also getting brainwashed by the cultural elitist aspects of Tibetan culture.

 

In general when I hear such things on the net it is my feeling that the people who say them don't really understand what part is culture and what is not. What is important and what is not.

And here on this forum there is often advertising by people that they teach practices stripped of their cultural trappings or something in that sense. And then I look at my practice texts and don't find anything that I could strip away that would really be just a Tibetan cultural thing. Not to mention that since this is the way they are transmitted one shouldn't change anything unless they were themselves enlightened. Perhaps not even then.

 

Who said you have to accumulate merits and wisdom for many lifetimes?

 

I believe this is the general sutra explanation.

 

All Buddhist schools use varying combinations of Shamata and Vipashana.

 

Yes indeed.

 

Just because Vajrayana plays with chakras and energy doesn't make it any better. The channels get naturally purified, and prana enters the central channel, when you do Shamata/Vipashyana.

 

Plants naturally grow. However add the appropriate things and they will grow more.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

All the 9 yanas find completion in Dzogchen.

 

 

This is also in ChNNR's Precious Vase.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Pero]

I just look at the history and try to use my own wisdom to distinguish what is truly beneficial and what is not.

 

Hm yes, perhaps you should try harder as many of the things you said about Vajrayana/Dzogchen in this thread were flat out wrong.

 

You seem knowledgeable about sutras though and I admire that. I wish I knew so much.

[styrofoamdog]

[Vajrahridaya]

 

1. Use of mandalas

2. Use of seed syllables

3. Guru as the teacher instead of Buddha

4. Everything is very secretive

5. Fascination with mysticism and the supernatural

6. Sexual techniques

 

I don't see these as anything special or especially critical for Buddhism, which was traditionally more concerned with high-level cultivation of the mind. Then again, everyone has his or her own opinion. I just look at the history and try to use my own wisdom to distinguish what is truly beneficial and what is not.

 

You have to get initiation to get the mudra and visualization, as well as specific contemplations equated with the same in Vajrayana and even Dzogchen. Also, there are specific yoga postures for integration that can be necessary. Also even dance techniques. Some things that most mainline Zen eschews.

.

[Pero]

6

And what are those many things?

 

Oh I'm not going back to read everything again. What would be the point. And you weren't the only one.

Hehe, even as is I've wrote too much but I just couldn't help myself, old habits die hard.

Anyway just continue to practice whatever Buddhist teaching you practice and don't disparge its other schools and you'll do great.

[goldisheavy]

This is a translation that needs to be contextualized which ChNNR does in the same book. He say's this is referring to one's mind, that one's mind is Samantabhadra and it's not equated with a universal essence like Brahman. ChNNR does say this. He is not talking about God. People like you mis-contextualize and confuse people.

 

You are crazy. I wasn't even talking about God or some universal essence. I have no idea why you decided to say that. I quoted that bit to show that at least one Vajrayana tantra criticizes everything and not just sutras. That was the main point. My secondary point was that consciousness is superior to any secret teaching, and I highlighted that part in the quote. I didn't even have God in mind. Not at all. The fact that you're talking about it means you're a lunatic. You've lost track of what's happening. You're barking at the shadows.

[goldisheavy]

styrofoamdog,

 

I'd like to thank you for your contributions. It's always a pleasure to read something that's both knowledgeable and wise. It might just be my own fault, but I haven't seen you much before on this forum, so, I'd like to welcome you to the forum. Welcome!

[Sunya]

This is also in ChNNR's Precious Vase.

 

mikaelz, on 28 June 2010 - 05:29 PM, said:

All the 9 yanas find completion in Dzogchen.

 

wtf? lol I never said that.

 

styrofoamdog,

 

I'd like to thank you for your contributions. It's always a pleasure to read something that's both knowledgeable and wise. It might just be my own fault, but I haven't seen you much before on this forum, so, I'd like to welcome you to the forum. Welcome!

 

ditto

 

 

 

mmm... sipping on a nice hot cup of gyokuro (japanese green tea). So delicious.

Edited June 29, 2010 by mikaelz