Dzogchen (and Buddhism) Summarized

[Vajrahridaya]

Dzogchen doesn't view mind as an obscuration. The people who talk about mind really need to distinguish the mind from the mindset. A mindset can be part of an obscuration, but never the mind itself, which is nothing in particular, unlike a mindset, which is something particular.

 

Yes! There is not a single obstacle or obscuration Rigpa speaking except ma-rigpa of course, which self liberates in Rigpa if directly intuited in transmission.

[goldisheavy]

You're right, never mind. i was thinking of a different interpretation of Kadak and Lhundrup. Some teachers use different translations for methodological purposes. I think you're absolutely right that the essence of Dzogchen is the essence of Buddhism. This is why Dzogchen is a complete vehicle.. but I just want to add that Dzogchen traditionally is trekcho and thogal which are very advanced practices. 99% of people will not be able to start with trekcho and will instead have to do concentration practice, mind training, and psychological healing to let go of hinderances. So they aren't really doing Dzogchen then. That's why no Dzogchen teacher starts out with trekcho. Even Namkhai Norbu teaches shamata/vipashyana and Tantra.

 

I think this is not a question of what a person can or cannot do. Since we all have the same primordial mind, we can all do the same things, including all the things that Buddhas can do. What matters is intent though. Not everyone wants to, for example, soften up the vision of life and to open up appearances. Some people are quite happy with physical, restricted, regulated appearances and thus, teachings like trekcho, which are meant to open up appearances and to undercut solidity, are simply not welcome. It's not that these folks inherently can't hack the teachings. They just don't want them.

 

So the bigger question is what does one really want? If someone wants to open up appearances, to make them more fluid and malleable, there is no denying that person. With or without instruction, either by dumb persistence or by softly yielding contemplative insight, such person will find a way. And that way will be like trekcho. Which means trekcho is not something that belongs to Dzogchen. The math doesn't belong to a mathematician or to a community of mathematicians. The math is an impersonal ownerless truth that anyone can own. Same with every teaching.

Edited June 27, 2010 by goldisheavy

[DarthBane]

 

When you first hear that there is nothing that's not mind, it doesn't seem right. We believe the world is not mind. Stuff and things aren't mind. We think that tables and chairs aren't mind. Why is that? That's because we believe we know what mind is... it's something small and private, inside the head and something that thinks. It's these opinions of ours about mind that block intuition. So when you first hear an enlightening teaching, it doesn't sound right, because it contradicts what we seem to "intuitively" understand about the mind. Intuition is a conditioned factor, it changes as you learn and grow. What used to be intuitive, can stop being intuitive and what used to be counter-intuitive can become intuitive later on. So before things begin to feel intuitive, one does need to have a bit of faith to go against the grain for a while.

 

Kudos Goldisheavy, I have read your posts over time. This is a great thing you have realized. To all those trapped in their noggins, you represent the enemy now though and I say that with great pride. Awesome conclusions.

[Vajrahridaya]

Also, he is non sectarian and teaches that your real nature can be found in any practice or religion.

 

Only if transcended and you actually get transmission and hold the "view".

 

Vajraji et al treat Norbu as if he were their father. Norbu is not interested in praise, parental adornment or any accolades from fawning idiots.

 

You don't know much about Guru Yoga.

 

This idea of preaching ad infinitum (dependent origination and emptiness) is insane!

 

He said at the first retreat I attended to understand Nagarjuna. You surely haven't read any of his books. Nor have you read his Precious Vase.

 

Furthermore, contemplating too tightly on concepts such as (dependent origination, emptiness etc.)

 

Wow... you still think these are concepts?

 

as these apologists suggest can lead to much mental and physical stress.

 

Only because I rub against your density.

 

Relaxing into all phenomena is key.

 

Which you still think exists. Relaxing is a process. Have you experienced everything as Rainbow light directly? Have you felt your body dying to that relaxation?

 

They have missed what real contemplation is.

 

From your own fingers type the story of themselves.

 

When one is relaxed and not too relaxed, then thoughts return to their natural state i.e, energy. There is nothing to accept or reject, just be with it.

 

Have you seen your spine turn electric blue yet?

 

Dzogchen i.e, non dualism or no separation

 

Oh... we are all one substance now? Your concepts convey your experience.

 

is about discovering ones true nature and that is found by relaxing into one's mind stream. Energy and clear light.

 

That's true.

[RongzomFan]

Dzogchen doesn't view mind as an obscuration.

 

 

Actually it does. This is what Loppon Namdrol says:

 

My comment is based on a statement by Longchenpa:

 

"The essence of mind is an obscuration to be given up. The essence of rigpa is wisdom to be attained."

 

This means that mind itself is a knowledge obscuration, hopeless trapped in dualism until it is allowed to self-liberate. That is the wisdom of rigpa.

 

 

Ok back to me, I think the mind is simply when rstal mixes with karmic winds. Even Hinayana and Hindu practitioners can meditate on the "empty" characteristics of the mind. This is NOT Dzogchen.

Edited June 27, 2010 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

It is pretty simple everyone. Just relax and distinguish rigpa and sems from each other. Thats it.

Edited June 27, 2010 by alwayson

[styrofoamdog]

[RongzomFan]

Isn't this more complicated than saying distinguish rigpa from sems?

[Birch]

Thanks for the clarifications of definitions and links (very good BTW).

 

Is there a practice within Dzogchen in which one intentionally seizes a bit of the mindstream and repeats it "on purpose"? Or is that something else? Tantrism, I'd guess.

[styrofoamdog]

[RongzomFan]

You do realize Dzogchen view is authoritative and definitive, don't you?

 

Dzogchen ridicules sutras like the ones you indicate

Edited June 27, 2010 by alwayson

[ralis]

Only if transcended and you actually get transmission and hold the "view".

 

 

 

You don't know much about Guru Yoga.

 

 

 

He said at the first retreat I attended to understand Nagarjuna. You surely haven't read any of his books. Nor have you read his Precious Vase.

 

 

 

Wow... you still think these are concepts?

 

 

 

Only because I rub against your density.

 

 

 

Which you still think exists. Relaxing is a process. Have you experienced everything as Rainbow light directly? Have you felt your body dying to that relaxation?

 

 

 

From your own fingers type the story of themselves.

 

 

 

Have you seen your spine turn electric blue yet?

 

 

 

Oh... we are all one substance now? Your concepts convey your experience.

 

 

 

That's true.

 

I went to bed at 1:00a.m. MST and since you are in Fla. it was 3:00a.m. Did one of your buddies PM you so you could correct me.

 

I said this is very difficult to convey verbally.

 

1. I realized Guru Yoga and the complete experience of it years ago.

 

2. How do you know I if I have or have not read the "Precious Vase"? Are you psychic?

 

3. By your continuous rant about dependent origination etc. you have conceptualized it for many who read what you post.

 

4. Not only have I integrated Trekchod, I practice Thogal. I received both of these transmissions in my first week long retreat with Norbu.

 

 

5. For lack of a better term, I said "phenomena" as a reference point and way to communicate. We are using language that is an approximation of reality, a map to be more precise. Pointing out.

 

6. As least I admitted in my post to Gold, that I was not certain if I communicated it well or not. It is not helpful to confuse anyone reading what I write. If someone is, I will make a concerted effort to clear it up. However, you are never able to accomplish that.

 

7. At least I am honest in stating that communicating the "natural state" is difficult and can easily be misunderstood. Obviously you can't understand that since you rant endlessly and never are honest with your audience. You are only interested in trying to dazzle your readers. If it were easy, then why have you created so much confusion and controversy?

 

8. Songs asked for a basic explanation and I am trying to help him out. Only because he asked.

 

You do not own this teaching! Also there are many wonderful teachers out there besides Norbu.

 

 

ralis

Edited June 27, 2010 by ralis

[RongzomFan]

Hey ralis,

 

I really respect you. I would edit your post. Way too much sensitive info. It is not worth getting arguments over people on the internet, especially dubious people like Vajrahridaya who thinks he used to be Brahma. He is a fool. I'm just looking out for you.

Edited June 27, 2010 by alwayson

[ralis]

Hey ralis,

 

I really respect you. I would edit your post. Way too much sensitive info. It is not worth getting arguments over people on the internet, especially dubious people like Vajrahridaya who thinks he used to be Brahma. He is a fool. I'm just looking out for you.

 

Thanks. Please feel free to make suggestions.

 

ralis

[RongzomFan]

The BOL stuff

[ralis]

The BOL stuff

 

BOL?

[garuda]

[ralis]

[styrofoamdog]

[ralis]

Dzogchen is just one tradition within one school of Tibetan Buddhism. It is not even considered authoritative amongst all the Tibetan schools, much less outside them. In India, there was no "Dzogchen." Analogous teachings were "Prajñāpāramitā". If you were actually beyond the teachings of Prajñāpāramitā, you would be a fully enlightened buddha, with the triple body of a buddha and all the supernatural faculties. You would be able to liberate sentient beings and manifest transformation bodies at will.

 

Please elaborate in more detail. How does one go beyond? Are you saying there is a higher teaching than Dzogchen?

Edited June 27, 2010 by ralis

[Sunya]

You do realize Dzogchen view is authoritative and definitive, don't you?

 

Dzogchen ridicules sutras like the ones you indicate

 

Wow... It's funny and sad how even Buddhism, a very compassionate and open ideology, can somehow lead people into such low depths of anger and fundamentalism.

[C T]

How does one go beyond?

After to-ing and fro-ing with Vaj for the last year or so, one would think that you would be really tired of the regurgitated sameness of experience by now. Apparently not so, as the karmic energy is still very much lingering. When they eventually cease, with or without your 'self' direction or effort, then 'going beyond' arises naturally. Just like Vaj has no control over your reactive emotions, yet each time you read some of his posts, they arise spontaneously. In essence, the energy underlying your emotions and those that bring forth discrimination cannot be differentiated. One taste, as they say. Eventually one learns simply to recognize arising energetic displays without assigning any preferences to the arisings. When one is able to rest pervasively in this stateless state, there is no coming or going - thus one is said, figuratively, to have gone beyond (dualistic notions, all levels, from gross to subtle to remainder to no remainder). Or something along these lines...

 

If you do not assign any labels to your expressive responses, you will see, when you just allow them to simmer inside, that over time your energy levels will increase. Those who do not know the correct way to handle this will feel as though they are in a pressure-cooker. In Dzogchen, you should have already learned to transmute the latent potential of inner energetic manifestations. By choosing against redirecting your energy inwards, you instead express it towards Vaj, then it becomes negative, in the sense that you felt something is not right, hence the response, but if you do not express it, but skillfully redirects it back inside, then its to your own benefit. You have a choice.

 

Since you practice the highest stages of Trekcho and Togal, you ought to know this is the essence of Dzogchen - the transformation of poison into elixir, just like how the mongoose transforms the snake's poison.

[ralis]

After to-ing and fro-ing with Vaj for the last year or so, one would think that you would be really tired of the regurgitated sameness of experience by now. Apparently not so, as the karmic energy is still very much lingering. When they eventually cease, with or without your 'self' direction or effort, then 'going beyond' arises naturally. Just like Vaj has no control over your reactive emotions, yet each time you read some of his posts, they arise spontaneously. In essence, the energy underlying your emotions and those that bring forth discrimination cannot be differentiated. One taste, as they say. Eventually one learns simply to recognize arising energetic displays without assigning any preferences to the arisings. When one is able to rest pervasively in this stateless state, there is no coming or going - thus one is said, figuratively, to have gone beyond (dualistic notions, all levels, from gross to subtle to remainder to no remainder). Or something along these lines...

 

If you do not assign any labels to your expressive responses, you will see, when you just allow them to simmer inside, that over time your energy levels will increase. Those who do not know the correct way to handle this will feel as though they are in a pressure-cooker. In Dzogchen, you should have already learned to transmute the latent potential of inner energetic manifestations. By choosing against redirecting your energy inwards, you instead express it towards Vaj, then it becomes negative, in the sense that you felt something is not right, hence the response, but if you do not express it, but skillfully redirects it back inside, then its to your own benefit. You have a choice.

 

Since you practice the highest stages of Trekcho and Togal, you ought to know this is the essence of Dzogchen - the transformation of poison into elixir, just like how the mongoose transforms the snake's poison.

 

 

My only reason for responding to him was to somehow have him stop confusing the issue and be clear and fair to those who read him. I knew exactly what I was doing.

 

There is a very fine line between suppressing the energy and allowing it to liberate into it's own nature.

 

 

ralis

Edited June 27, 2010 by ralis

[forestofclarity]

I wonder if you would speak to the difference between suppression and liberation.

 

 

If you do not assign any labels to your expressive responses, you will see, when you just allow them to simmer inside, that over time your energy levels will increase. Those who do not know the correct way to handle this will feel as though they are in a pressure-cooker. In Dzogchen, you should have already learned to transmute the latent potential of inner energetic manifestations. By choosing against redirecting your energy inwards, you instead express it towards Vaj, then it becomes negative, in the sense that you felt something is not right, hence the response, but if you do not express it, but skillfully redirects it back inside, then its to your own benefit. You have a choice.

[forestofclarity]

Ha ha, my thoughts exactly!

 

There is a very fine line between suppressing the energy and allowing it to liberate into it's own nature.