The "i-thought"

[3bob]

Btw, I appreciate the quote below - and granted some of you might not

 

"In other words human beings are not the ones who initiate the seeking of Enlightenment, God, or the Absolute - Reality is, forever, seeking out human beings.

 

Reality calls us to the Path. It establishes one on the Path. Reality provides one with the doctrines, practices, guides and spiritual community. Reality watches over the seeker (in the form of a teacher, guru, shaykh, or master) during the spiritual journey, and, finally, Reality provides the vehicle of realization through which the mystical quest is brought to fruition".

 

Om

[DarthBane]

I think what is being talked about is the fact that some try to get rid of their ego.

They are taught by other traditions that their ego is a bad thing and go out to try to eradicate it.

I have even talked to people to have claimed to have eradicated their ego.

But the ego itself serves a purpose.

 

From my own prodding at mine, and at times entering states where it is like "collapsing it" so to speak. It does tend to fight back. Or it at least tries to. Just mental garbal as "What you experienced is not real!", "If you tell people what you just saw or felt they will think you are nuts!", "Youre nuts and you just made up that crap!", "Im in control!", "Hey you need me!". I tend to just think that thought is not applicable to the situation.

 

To the person who first decides to turn off this aspect of their being it seems to be discouraging. But after a while the whining stops and you actually begin to understand. Well maybe. Im a bit confused myself.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

[Marblehead]

hmm... I was poking some fun there... I guess you are to?

 

Well, of course I was.

 

Btw, I don't know who "you" is since there only is one of us.

 

"You" is the other "I".

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Reality is, forever, seeking out human beings.

 

 

Actually, Reality did quite well for 13.6 billion years before there were any human beings.

 

I think that human beings was an accident, just like the dinosaurs.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

[Marblehead]

... and becoem akin to a rock, from the perspective of society.

 

Reminded me of that song "Help! I'm A Rock." by Frank Zappa. (Sorry, I can't link it right now because I am recording some other music.)

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

 

The ego is damaging if left in control, but if suppressed completely, you lose your self entirely and becoem akin to a rock, from the perspective of society.

There is a middle way you know? Perhaps one that releases the extremes of decadent, hedonistic abandonment and total suppression? Imagine the ego akin to a spring - if one exerts too much counterforce on it, two things can happen - one, the overexertion itself lends too much strength to the spring, and two, it tires the finger or thumb; on the other hand, if its simply neglected, its of no use. Finding the right tension thru realizing its potential often leads to the fulfillment of the spring's potential and true purpose. Once recognized and put in the correct place, its rather silly to keep focussing on the spring. One does not constantly take a watch apart to make sure all the springs are doing their job - in the same way, one does not need to perpetually examine the ego to keep it in check.

 

If there is wisdom, just like a watchmaker has wisdom, one would know the exact place and purpose of ego. The wiser one is, the less troublesome the ego.

[Marblehead]

If there is wisdom, just like a watchmaker has wisdom, one would know the exact place and purpose of ego. The wiser one is, the less troublesome the ego.

 

 

I like that entire post. You done good!

 

Peace & Love!

[DarthBane]

Very good CowTao.

 

My end of High School was a blur to me but I was required to take Psychology my Junior Year in Lansing at the time. Im kinda a drifter I suppose that is unimportant. But I believe back then it refered to something called "Maslows Heirarchy of Needs". I became so fond of this and found it so intriguing I researched the author who was fond of Taoist philosophy.

 

Under Maslow's concept needs never go away, and needs are a part of the ego. Therefore it is pointless to try to eradicate the ego. We might forget to eat, or drink water and then pass on before we are ready.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Generally, we use the 'ego' to describe the 'me' we wish we weren't.. in actuallity, ego is not some separate entity that manipulates you, it IS you.. you are your ego, you are its author and its source.. If the image you show people is not the 'real' you, that's not 'ego', is the face of your deception.. accept 'who you are', don't separate yourself into more or less marketable commodities, like 'ego', 'soul', etc..

 

Be well..

[3bob]

The "Self" knows the ego for what it is... (a construct) while the ego will never know the Self.

 

Om

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

There is a middle way you know? Perhaps one that releases the extremes of decadent, hedonistic abandonment and total suppression? Imagine the ego akin to a spring - if one exerts too much counterforce on it, two things can happen - one, the overexertion itself lends too much strength to the spring, and two, it tires the finger or thumb; on the other hand, if its simply neglected, its of no use. Finding the right tension thru realizing its potential often leads to the fulfillment of the spring's potential and true purpose. Once recognized and put in the correct place, its rather silly to keep focussing on the spring. One does not constantly take a watch apart to make sure all the springs are doing their job - in the same way, one does not need to perpetually examine the ego to keep it in check.

 

If there is wisdom, just like a watchmaker has wisdom, one would know the exact place and purpose of ego. The wiser one is, the less troublesome the ego.

 

 

 

The balance are the other two extremes.

 

 

Suppression and indulgence of ego are the intentual extremes, perhaps the yin of the balance.

 

Suppression exercises to build patience, indulgence to build character.

 

But what else? There is the inactive half as well, perhaps as though the yang half of the balance which consists of reflecting on your own self and ego respectively and through dualistic recognition, findign the oneness of the cycles.

 

 

Complete commitment to one direction leads to futility. life is a combat, you cannot commit every movement fully or you will fall on your face. you need to learn how far to commit each movement and exercise and when to relax and when to pull back, when to push forward, and when to stand ground.

 

 

All parts of life are reflected by the sacred cycle of breath.

 

Recognizing each part of the cycle make progress less obstructed, clearer, and overall easier to manage.

[Birch]

Dumb question of the thread. How did we get to "ego" from "i-thought"?

[Guest paul walter]

BUT, having gone through these experiences makes NOT having these experiences anymore that much more beautiful. It's like having all light all the time with no experience of darkness. Without some darkness we can not truly enjoy the beauty of the light, and vice versa.

 

 

Some very good reminders in your post carson, however this bit smacks of the deluded humanism that we carry around that justifies all our crimes and sufferings. It's easy to point to pain and suffering as our birthright when we have been prevented from even considering "the beauty of the light" as our birthright. It's not about comparision, is liberation, simply about purity and what has been there all along. That which is "beautiful" is only a word/mind concept based on comparative perception. Paul.

[CarsonZi]

Hi Paul

 

Some very good reminders in your post carson, however this bit smacks of the deluded humanism that we carry around that justifies all our crimes and sufferings.

 

Not sure I understand what you mean here.....or maybe I don't get how what you are saying relates to my post. Perhaps you can restate?

 

It's easy to point to pain and suffering as our birthright when we have been prevented from even considering "the beauty of the light" as our birthright.

 

To me, our birthright is a living experience void of suffering. But to go through life without any suffering would be meaningless. We have to suffer (for a while) in order to fully appreciate NOT suffering anymore. This is just my perspective though. Yours may differ. I just can't see going through one's entire life from a place of no suffering could be anywhere as awesome as buying into the our stories that cause suffering for a while, only to drop them later. The contrast makes everything that much brighter. Again, IMO.

 

It's not about comparision, is liberation, simply about purity and what has been there all along. That which is "beautiful" is only a word/mind concept based on comparative perception. Paul.

 

Yes, beautiful is just a label. Such is life when language is our key way of communicating. In order to express our perspective we must put (inadequate) words to that which can't be described. Liberation (to me) is no longer identifying with the labels. It is no longer identifying with the "I-thought". It is no longer suffering.

 

 

@Kate

 

You said "Dumb question of the thread. How did we get to "ego" from "i-thought"?"

 

I think it probably has something to do with the fact that the ego is a collection of "I-Thoughts". Not really that far of a stretch. Just my perspective.

 

Love!

Edited July 1, 2010 by CarsonZi

[Guest paul walter]

Not sure I understand what you mean here.....or maybe I don't get how what you are saying relates to my post. Perhaps you can restate?

 

I'm saying that we live in a masochistic relationship to our idea of ourselves and in relation to how we escape that idea. We loath our'selves'. I'd probably call this post-Christian or some such where the 'post' bit is our belief that we are in control (no God doing it to us) and the 'Christian' bit meaning all the guilt/self-hatred/ non self-regulation that we still carry from living in such a culture but we are making a valiant effort to pretend this baggage doesn't exist (denial).

 

To me, our birthright is a living experience void of suffering. But to go through life without any suffering would be meaningless. We have to suffer (for a while) in order to fully appreciate NOT suffering anymore. This is just my perspective though. Yours may differ. I just can't see going through one's entire life from a place of no suffering could be anywhere as awesome as buying into the our stories that cause suffering for a while, only to drop them later. The contrast makes everything that much brighter. Again, IMO.

Yes, it seems practical what you are saying but if you look for the structural root of what's being said then there may be something of what I'm positing. Believe me man when you can get to a place of "non-suffering" you wonder what all the noise was about. You start to see there was no journey asa such, merely the resistance to taking the leap. I think you are talking from the other side of the fence--everything looks greener from the other side but when you make it through you don't see/remember/feel anything really about your 'previous' life such is the all-encompassing "now" of that feeling.

 

 

 

Yes, beautiful is just a label. Such is life when language is our key way of communicating. In order to express our perspective we must put (inadequate) words to that which can't be described. Liberation (to me) is no longer identifying with the labels. It is no longer identifying with the "I-thought". It is no longer suffering.

 

Yes, no longer identifying with the labels--which means the lure of "beauty" etc is only a longing that we yearn for cause of not being in a "beautiful" place. Take care, Paul.

[C T]

 

I think it probably has something to do with the fact that the ego is a collection of "I-Thoughts". Not really that far of a stretch. Just my perspective.

 

This is it - nicely said.

 

Each time the "I" pops up, its like Ego gets the primetime slot on TV!!

[Marblehead]

Dumb question of the thread. How did we get to "ego" from "i-thought"?

 

Because it is the "ego", the "I", that has the "I-thought". The movement from 'i-thought' to 'ego' was only natural.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

That which is "beautiful" is only a word/mind concept based on comparative perception. Paul.

 

This is also true regarding "ugly". Variations of duality. Just the way our brain works.

 

If we view things based only on what they truely are, without value judgements and without dualistic thinking we go beyond the concepts of beautiful and ugly and see the truth is what we are seeing.

 

Peace & Love!

[joeblast]

We have to suffer (for a while) in order to fully appreciate NOT suffering anymore. This is just my perspective though. Yours may differ. I just can't see going through one's entire life from a place of no suffering could be anywhere as awesome as buying into the our stories that cause suffering for a while, only to drop them later. The contrast makes everything that much brighter. Again, IMO.

I agree - I can understand Paul's assertion that "once you get past it, you wonder what all the fuss was about" but at the same time, what you're hitting on here is that of the path through it - a maximum expression of energy can spring forth from a medium in which it can oscillate in both directions, positive and negative - so by that rationale, if you were born in amitabha's pure land devoid of suffering you wouldnt have the same potential as being born here where you have these trials to temper you!

[Birch]

ooh such neat posts again!

 

The fastest route is just to drop any consideration of this i-business but apparently that's tough to do. It is ;-)

 

Loved the idea that ego is a collection of those i-thoughts strung together.

 

Does getting an earworm count as an i-thought? "I" was singing to myself (in my head, not in the shower;-)) this morning and realised there was no "I'm singing" thought, it was a song that was stuck (an earworm)

[Marblehead]

 

Does getting an earworm count as an i-thought? "I" was singing to myself (in my head, not in the shower;-)) this morning and realised there was no "I'm singing" thought, it was a song that was stuck (an earworm)

 

Yes, that was the unconscious mind. Pretty close to "not-I". (But still there is a lot of "I" stuck in the unconscious. We see "I" a lot of times in our dreams but we also see the "not-I".)

 

I think that intuition, or instinct, is about as close as we can get to "not-I". (I am aware that there are differences of opinion here so please be easy on me. Hehehe.) Well, except for the concept of 'wu wei'.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

When Spirit completely takes over like an "ear-worm" then there's no room left in there to also fit or listen to an ego-worm.

 

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Yes, that was the unconscious mind. Pretty close to "not-I". (But still there is a lot of "I" stuck in the unconscious. We see "I" a lot of times in our dreams but we also see the "not-I".)

 

I think that intuition, or instinct, is about as close as we can get to "not-I". (I am aware that there are differences of opinion here so please be easy on me. Hehehe.) Well, except for the concept of 'wu wei'.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

 

I would like to take this opportunity to express that "I" am not intellectual or intelligent, but intuitive and instinctual.

 

I have a hard time coping with the ego of society, of civilians.