Birch Posted July 1, 2010 "When Spirit completely takes over" Now here's another dumb question. Where was/is "spirit" before it completely takes over? Is it partially there? If so, where? If not then that would be weird IMO. As far as I can tell, "it's" everywhere. So what's the deal? Are we looking at a "place" (I don't mean this as a geography but a geometry) of "non-spirit" where "ego" is in place and basically "blocking" spirit? Are we looking at a case where "spirit" itself = the "ego" (albeit "doing" whatever "ego" does) And so "spirit" is suffering until it liberates? If the latter is the case then why would "spirit" go through suffering? I guess one could say "Oh, to liberate" - but from what? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 1, 2010 Now here's another dumb question. Where was/is "spirit" before it completely takes over? Is it partially there? If so, where? If not then that would be weird IMO. As far as I can tell, "it's" everywhere. Hi Kate. Well, you almost lost me with that one. Hehehe. "Spirit", Tao, and specifically Chi, permeates all things. Yes, it is always there (and here and everywhere). Thing is though, it is said that we can loose Tao. Note that if we loose it we must have had it to begin with. But, Tao never looses us. We can return any time we wish. No, it is not a physical place that we return to, it is more a condition, or state. I can't even say a state of mind because it is actually more than that - it is everything. No, spirit does not replace ego. That is a misunderstanding (of Taoist philosophy). Spirit reemerges with ego. We are still the same physical being we were before the emergence, we simply see life differently. It is a balancing act between the "I" and "All". We are born with very few instincts (some even say we have none) so we are dependant on our choices in life (as well as the choices others make in our behalf). I think that the balancing act will present to us the path of least resistance. We will then flow through life instead of struggling through life. We will have inner peace & contentment. All the above was presented by my ego as guided by the spirit of Tao. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 1, 2010 Hi A.I., Escellent addition to the discussion. Thanks for participating. I especially like this: The higher self can't suffer - only the ego can. the end of suffering is dissolution of the ego where there is still pain, but not suffering. I think that this is an important thought for us to consider during this life we have to live. Yes, sometimes there is pain in living. Just the way life is. But suffering is a result of excessive ego, I think. We will never attain inner peace and contentment as long as we allow our ego to continue to serve us desires that we can never realistically expect to attain. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted July 1, 2010 (edited) Hi Paul and All We loath our'selves'. When the I-thoughts are no longer given any power by choosing not to believe in them, the "loathing" also becomes just another thought/emotion that is seen through quite easily. Who is there to loath? (the answer is: only the ego) When the I-thoughts are not identified with and are allowed to release as they do, then there is just living/being. Then there is no loathing as there is no one to do the loathing. All is seen as the Self, the illusion of separation no longer has a foothold in the mind. Everything is fine just the way it is....even what the mind wants to label as bad/ugly/wrong/negative/etc. There is equanimity. I'd probably call this post-Christian or some such where the 'post' bit is our belief that we are in control (no God doing it to us) and the 'Christian' bit meaning all the guilt/self-hatred/ non self-regulation that we still carry from living in such a culture but we are making a valiant effort to pretend this baggage doesn't exist (denial). Perhaps I am just really slow today, but I have been reading your post over and over and trying to understand what you are saying, and I am having real difficulty. Based on what I THINK you are saying, I would respond with this: Control is seen as an illusion when the I-thoughts are no longer believed in. All we can really control is our actions in the moment and even that is a bit of a stretch as shakti can have a mind of it's own sometimes (just my experience). Also, baggage truly doesn't exist when the I-thoughts are not believed in because everything is seen as necessary. Even that which is difficult/a struggle/negative/etc. When the I-thoughts are not believed in, when something difficult/horrific/"bad" etc happens, it is seen as what it is....just a judgement in the mind....not reality. The ego is what judges. When the ego (collection of I-Thoughts) is not believed there is no one left to judge things as good or bad, right or wrong, baggage or freedom. Everything just is as it is, and that is perfect. The mind is allowed to rest in it's true nature, which is Silence (IME). Yes, it seems practical what you are saying but if you look for the structural root of what's being said then there may be something of what I'm positing. Actually, I'm still not sure what you are positing. Very likely I am just slow today Believe me man when you can get to a place of "non-suffering" you wonder what all the noise was about. Believe it or not, I actually know from personal experience what it is like to live from a place of "non-suffering". I rarely suffer over anything anymore. In the past I suffered 24/7. But even though I know what it is like to live from a place of "non-suffering" I still remember what the "noise" over suffering was about. I know exactly why I was suffering. I suffered non-stop because I believed in 90% of the thoughts that were running through my head. I believed "I" was right....I believed "my" perspective was the only right perspective....that "I" knew best for everyone. I believed that the world was shit, that humanity was shit. I believed that I was a alone, that I was separate from everything around me, and I believed in all the value judgments I placed on myself. All these beliefs (and many more) caused me endless suffering. So no, even though I generally live from a place of non-suffering, I do not wonder what all the noise was about. I know what all the noise was about. I just don't believe it anymore. You start to see there was no journey asa such, merely the resistance to taking the leap. I guess there is no journey in that All is Now.....but it is also "the journey" (of aquiring personal experience and purifying the human nervous system to the point where it is a clear vessel) that leads to the realizing that All is Now. From one perspective all there is is the journey. If it is possible to leap, then there is still "someone" doing something. Hard to resist taking "the leap" if you don't know that leaping is an option. This is all to say that yes, from one perspective there is no journey....but from another, all there is is the journey. From the perspective here these perspectives are not mutually exclusive. It's a paradox. I think you are talking from the other side of the fence-- Can't have both "no journey" and a "fence". If there is a fence, then there is a journey. Again, from one perspective both the fence and the journey are illusion. From another they are both totally real.....until they aren't anymore. everything looks greener from the other side but when you make it through you don't see/remember/feel anything really about your 'previous' life such is the all-encompassing "now" of that feeling. When everything is seen as perfect and there is no "positive" or "negative" (because the I-thoughts are no longer believed in), EVERYTHING is as green as everything else. Then there is no fence, no journey, no better or worse, just pure existence. I remember EXACTLY what it is like to suffer. But my previous suffering, my previous "life" of believing "my stories" is now seen as perfection. It was all completely necessary. Without a single moment of the previous suffering, the perfection that is seen in everything right now would not be Known. Nothing happens by accident, there are no coincidences, and everything that happens is completely necessary. Including suffering. Yes, no longer identifying with the labels--which means the lure of "beauty" etc is only a longing that we yearn for cause of not being in a "beautiful" place. When the labels are seen as illusion, everything just is what it is. No more longing for anything. Everything is known to be perfect in and of itself. And yes, perfect is just a label too, and it is also seen as illusion. It's a paradox Love! edited for HTML code Edited July 1, 2010 by CarsonZi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted July 2, 2010 :wub: You guy's rock! Awesome thread! And I need to ask (don't ask "who" asks;-)) and ask again "Oh, to liberate" - but from what?" I sorta gotta few ideas but would like more! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted July 2, 2010 Hi Kate and All :wub: You guy's rock! Awesome thread! And I need to ask (don't ask "who" asks;-)) and ask again "Oh, to liberate" - but from what?" I sorta gotta few ideas but would like more! Liberate from suffering IMO. Just my opinion though. Sure there is the odd Buddhist here who would say "liberate from the cycle of death and rebirth". Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest paul walter Posted July 2, 2010 "When Spirit completely takes over" Now here's another dumb question. Where was/is "spirit" before it completely takes over? Is it partially there? If so, where? If not then that would be weird IMO. As far as I can tell, "it's" everywhere. So what's the deal? Are we looking at a "place" (I don't mean this as a geography but a geometry) of "non-spirit" where "ego" is in place and basically "blocking" spirit? Are we looking at a case where "spirit" itself = the "ego" (albeit "doing" whatever "ego" does) And so "spirit" is suffering until it liberates? If the latter is the case then why would "spirit" go through suffering? I guess one could say "Oh, to liberate" - but from what? When you look at something, all other "somethings" don't exist cause your attention is focused on that thing. When you change your focus and look at something else what you were looking at is no longer "there"--it doesn't exist for you as something real-it becomes memeory. So does one view exist then disappear only to reappear when we look at it again? No...and...yes . This is how it is with the "spiritual" as well--if you don't put your intention (focus) in its direction you will never see/feel it. It's always there but because our mind is always full of other intentions we never "see" it clearly. Focus, intention, just that.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest paul walter Posted July 2, 2010 "Oh, to liberate" - but from what?" I sorta gotta few ideas but would like more! Then go look in the mirror . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted July 2, 2010 Then go look in the mirror . - Yeah, there's a magnificent animal looking back at me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 2, 2010 Then go look in the mirror . - Yeah, there's a magnificent animal looking back at me Hehehe. Nice ego you have there Sweetie! Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted July 2, 2010 :wub: You guy's rock! Awesome thread! And I need to ask (don't ask "who" asks;-)) and ask again "Oh, to liberate" - but from what?" I sorta gotta few ideas but would like more! Linking back to my previous post, here is a wonderful quote from Theun Mares: The warrior is a man who fights for his freedom from social conditioning; for his freedom to think and decide for himself; for his freedom to [align his perception and awareness] at will and thereby access any view of the world he may choose; and above all, for his freedom to enjoy his life and the abundant experiences it brings him."Return of the Warriors" So the "liberation" is from the fixations we have to "I", to the calcified belief that our descriptions we have of ourselves and the world around us are immutable, fixed, and non-negotiable. It is these fixations that have imprisoned the unbridled current of our life force, and it is against these fixations that the warrior/seer must wage their battle to become truly alive. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TzuJanLi Posted July 2, 2010 Linking back to my previous post, here is a wonderful quote from Theun Mares: So the "liberation" is from the fixations we have to "I", to the calcified belief that our descriptions we have of ourselves and the world around us are immutable, fixed, and non-negotiable. It is these fixations that have imprisoned the unbridled current of our life force, and it is against these fixations that the warrior/seer must wage their battle to become truly alive. Very nicely articulated!! the words form an understandable 'Energy', thanks! Be well.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 2, 2010 Very nicely articulated!! the words form an understandable 'Energy', thanks! Be well.. I second that opinion. Loved the quote too! Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheSongsofDistantEarth Posted July 4, 2010 (edited) You might find that www.kennethfolk.com is a useful resource with respect to the "I-thought"; other resources might be those related to Ramana Maharshi or Nisargadatta Maharaj. Best wishes. Nice information. Thanks August Leo. (I love 'capturing' a disappearing August Leo post ) Edited July 4, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted July 4, 2010 "Hehehe. Nice ego you have there Sweetie!" - Yesz. I hasz been polishinzging itz! I tried explaining some of this stuff to a friend and they were horrified. She figured it was dangerous. I said "Yes, it was". She's too polite to suggest I'm nuts. Besides, she's nuts too :-p Shaktimama's post on the Shaktipat thread IME explains some of the dangers. Very very well. I'm presently "cooling off". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted July 4, 2010 Thank you for posting August Leo. You have a royal vibe going on. It's nice to see. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted July 5, 2010 Huh, how did this super important post get to page 2??? Alright, let's drive by that one again: - Why am "I" not on page one where the most important looking posts (according to "me") seem to be (and "i" know few people go past page one with any regularity (oh, wait, that would be..."me") and "i" think that what "i" came up with is just so scathingly brilliant (like "no-one" could have come up with a variation of this stuff before "me" - oh wait... - ha, problem solved;-p - time to solve problem - many hundreds of thousands of years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
