The "i-thought"

[Birch]

Musing lately on this "i-thought" business. It's always (for me anyway):

 

- after something else (an example is feeling a pattern of feeling that spurs on the thought "I'm happy")

 

- based on previous patterns of feeling (or attempts to attribute to such)

 

- seems to have tenuous (at best) bearing on anything that is actually happening (and in fact "kills" whatever "is" NB my best definition of "is" is the one offered by Ralis most recently.)

 

- is likely useless in the event that anything happening requires immediate action (an example is an accident, I didn't think "oh, here I am having an accident".)

 

So, any ideas on what it might be for? Is it "for something"? If so, what? I mean lots of people seem to want to get rid of this "thing", but why?

[Stigweard]

[Marblehead]

So, any ideas on what it might be for? Is it "for something"? If so, what? I mean lots of people seem to want to get rid of this "thing", but why?

 

I don't want to get rid of anything. (At my age I am loosing too much as it is.)

 

In the pure state of 'wu wei' perhaps the "I thought" would be redundant. But how many of us are in that state for any length of time?

 

The "I thought" is excellent for planing ahead, I would think. It defines where we are and where we want to be.

 

Peace & Love!

[Birch]

Neat Stig!

 

Thanks for that.

The most recent "Taoist" expo I went to included "naga" images (well, I knew that's what they were;-)) in amongst the images of "regular" people. My reading of this was "folks that had their (knowledge) of K on and folks that didn't". IMO the only "difference" between the two is the realization you point to in the above. Nicely done. Thank you!

 

More FS things here would/could be nice!

[Birch]

"The "I thought" is excellent for planing ahead, I would think. It defines where we are and where we want to be."

 

Thanks Mr Marblehead!

 

2 things:

 

- "I thought" is excellent for planing ahead," - how so?

 

- "It defines where we are and where we want to be."- how so?

 

I won't tell you (yet) my opinion on this because I would like to hear yours! thank you!

[Seth Ananda]

Musing lately on this "i-thought" business. It's always (for me anyway):

 

- after something else (an example is feeling a pattern of feeling that spurs on the thought "I'm happy")

 

- based on previous patterns of feeling (or attempts to attribute to such)

 

- seems to have tenuous (at best) bearing on anything that is actually happening (and in fact "kills" whatever "is" NB my best definition of "is" is the one offered by Ralis most recently.)

 

- is likely useless in the event that anything happening requires immediate action (an example is an accident, I didn't think "oh, here I am having an accident".)

 

So, any ideas on what it might be for? Is it "for something"? If so, what? I mean lots of people seem to want to get rid of this "thing", but why?

 

 

I tend to think that the 'I' sense is a simple result of Awareness. Since we cant deny that something is having an experience we say 'I' am experiencing...

I also tend to think that Awareness is the primary Nature of the universe, and that It can't be 'Known' as it is what 'Knows', so arguments about its Nature are pointless. This is kind of similar to the Nagual theory.

So where am I going with this?.... hmmm...

 

I guess that If everything can be seen to happen within Awareness, and logically there has never been an experience or thought or perception out side of Awareness, Then awareness and the resulting I sense is what we are, But we cant cling to it the way Hindu traditions may, and nor can we Infer Its empty Nature the way Buddhist teachings attempt. It is simply Mysterious.

 

As it is our tool for knowing, and all we can logically see that it does, is experience, Then any talk about its Nature is pointless. Any assumed experience of it - such as someone who says they experienced their Self, are simply talking about a glorious magnified level of experience, within awareness, and a the opposite scale within awareness would be simply an experience of complete clouded Ignorance and confusion.

Deep Sleep is just an experience of lack of perceptual objects and sense of self. Dreaming is an experience of a different to physical world with many possible variations and subtle states...

 

So I do not think the I sense is a problem. there is existing awareness and we need language to talk about that. Within awareness we will probably experience many points where the I sense comes and Goes, such as when contemplating that all experience is within awareness, we will often move to a 'space' of just 'experiencing' without an I sense being Involved.

 

lol looking back on this I wonder if I should post it... Its early and I am not even sure if I stayed on track with the thread... anyway it caught my attention...

[Birch]

"Dreaming is an experience of a different to physical world with many possible variations and subtle states..."

 

Could be a neat perspective from which to contemplate the "i"?

 

Thanks for your post!

[3bob]

The "I" has to have or be a unified will to surrender that will, that's the catch so to speak. Thus not getting stuck in denial of will nor non-surrender of will is the exacting test before us... We also hear teachings about a middle path between becoming and non-becoming.

 

Om

Edited June 28, 2010 by 3bob

[goldisheavy]

Thanks Stig, that was a great and sagely answer.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

"I" is the result of Individuality.. the sum of the Unique interpretations and perceptions of experiences between 'You' the Independently Functioning Version of.. 'You' the Undifferentiated Wholeness.. yeah, i had to read it a couple of times, too, but.. it says what i think i mean..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

"The "I thought" is excellent for planing ahead, I would think. It defines where we are and where we want to be."

 

Thanks Mr Marblehead!

 

2 things:

 

- "I thought" is excellent for planing ahead," - how so?

 

- "It defines where we are and where we want to be."- how so?

 

I won't tell you (yet) my opinion on this because I would like to hear yours! thank you!

 

Hi Kate,

 

I think Seth Ananda spoke very well to the concept of "I-Awareness" so I won't speak to this aspect of "I-thought".

 

Please keep in mind that when I speak to these such concepts there really are two 'states of consciousness' that I will speak to. The first is almost always 'yo', the manifest, the second is 'wu', the mystery (or the spiritual or whatever one wishes to call it).

 

The quotes you questioned above were speaking directly to 'yo', the manifest, "the real world".

 

Given the fact that we do not know when we are going to die we must assume that we are still going to be alive tomorrow.

 

"Planning ahead" (for ourself, our own life) requires us, IMO, to acknowledge our thoughts of ourself as unique thoughts that pertain to only ourself, our manifest existence. "I am tired." is a statement of our level of energy at a given moment. This statement has nothing to do with any other entity in the universe. So the "I-thought" identifies ourself as an individual and we can plan ahead (for the future) various aspects of our life. Of course, we cannot change the past, and we can only live the present moment, but the future (what we plan for) is open for uncountless variables. We plan to control, to whatever degree possible, some of these variables.

 

At any given point in time we are at point "X". If we are not satisfied with our conditions we think "I need to change (whatever)." This requires us to identify "I" and it also requires us to identify those thoughts that are uniquely our own. This requires the discrimination between what we have been told and taught over the years that is only a matter of information recall and our own original thoughts.

 

Our own original thoughts are those that will lead us to conditions we wish upon ourself. These thoughs generally do not consider others - they are thoughts of "I". "I want to retire early." This is a very personal thought concerning only one's self in the manifest world.

 

So we plan ahead, we make decisions as to what actions we need take in order to retire early. We follow these plans and attain our goal. Our goal was very personal, it did not include other aspects of our life, our family, our friends, our working companions, none others.

 

I don't know if I expressed myself well here. You will know when you read this. I remain open for further questions.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

Hi Kate -

 

Ever heard of a chap named Shinzen Young? He has to say in relation to this topic:

 

"We're always talking about "I" as though its a substantive, a noun, a thing inside me. The conventions of language (subject vs objects, and so forth) constantly reinforce a perception that there's a solid thing called a self thats fundamentally separate from others. That sense that there is a solid particle or entity called self goes away at enlightenment. Your fundamental confusion about things goes away. The ascribing of more to ethics and ceremonies than they can actually deliver goes away. Thats the traditional Buddhist formulation of the 3 things that go away at enlightenment."

 

I am not familiar at all with his works, but if you want to explore his inspirations further, who knows what deeper insights he may have to offer. Apparently he is well-regarded as a teacher and author, and Wiki says he has also practiced widely in the other Buddhist traditions and Lakota Sioux Shamanism. This last bit sounds rather interesting...

 

Anyway, i snipped this from a longer interview he had on the subject of Enlightenment. If you are so inclined to read further, here is the article: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/on-enlightenment-an-interview-with-shinzen-young/

 

Gotta go! Have fun with this wonderful thread you opened! Sounds like a great way to start the week! hehe

[CarsonZi]

Great topic!

 

To me, it is not the "I-thought" that is necessarily the "problem" (not that anything is actually a problem ). It is the IDENTIFICATION with the "I-thought" that can become a problem. I don't think that anyone can fully irradicate the "I-thought" (basically synonymous with the ego IMO)....what we CAN do is stop identifying with the I-thought. This is why mindfulness and silence cultivation are so important IME. When one is adept at being mindful it is easy/easier to see the I-thoughts when they arise....combine that with an active Silence cultivation practice and it becomes easy/easier to choose not to identify with the I-thoughts when they arise as the mind knows it itself as Silence. This is just my experience though....your milage may vary

 

Love!

[Marblehead]

This is just my experience though....your milage may vary

 

Love!

 

Hey Carson, You cheated. Hehehe. You got ahead of the story.

 

Nice post!

 

Peace & Love!

[Tao99]

Edited July 9, 2010 by Tao99

[Marblehead]

Okay. We need Kate to come in and get a handle on this.

 

Hehehe.

 

Hey Tao99, It's good to not know. We don't ever have to change our opinion ('cause we ain't got none).

 

Peace & Love!

[Tao99]

Edited July 9, 2010 by Tao99

[CarsonZi]

So, any ideas on what it might be for? Is it "for something"? If so, what? I mean lots of people seem to want to get rid of this "thing", but why?

 

In my opinion, and this is purely my opinion, the I-thought exists for the purpose of "contrast". If we existed without the I-thought right from the beginning, if we existed as pure "being-ness" and knew nothing else, Life could not be nearly as blissful as it is when having bought into the I-thought lie/illusion (the lie/illusion that we are our ego/body/thoughts/ideas/beliefs/etc) for a while and then dropping it. In my experience I have spent most of my life suffering needlessly because of identifying myself with something I am not. BUT, having gone through these experiences makes NOT having these experiences anymore that much more beautiful. It's like having all light all the time with no experience of darkness. Without some darkness we can not truly enjoy the beauty of the light, and vice versa. So, this is all to say that the I-thought exists so that we can experience the true joy of leaving it behind (meaning choose to stop identifying with it).

 

Again, all just my opinion/experience and yours may/can/will be different

 

Love!

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

im out of the loop.

 

 

WTF is this "i thought" meme you're discussing?

[Marblehead]

im out of the loop.

WTF is this "i thought" meme you're discussing?

 

Hang in there! It will become clearer soon (I hope - Hehehe).

 

Kate has a reason but we don't know what it is yet.

 

Peace & Love!

[Stigweard]

Thanks Stig, that was a great and sagely answer.

Graci

[Birch]

WOW!

 

Awesome and excellent posts all of them! Thank you!

 

As for my "reasons" - I'll have to tell you later as I don't want to suggest any specific opinions to anyone.

[3bob]

Will "I" ever be able to jump through enough hoops to become enlightened,

at which time I will then know who I am

 

[Marblehead]

Will "I" ever be able to jump through enough hoops to become enlightened,

at which time I will then know who I am

 

 

 

"I" think that "You" should not put too much importance on enlightenment. "I" think that enlightenment is greatly over-rated.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

"I" think that "You" should not put too much importance on enlightenment. "I" think that enlightenment is greatly over-rated.

 

Peace & Love!

 

hmm... I was poking some fun there... I guess you are to?

Btw, I don't know who "you" is since there only is one of us.