Certain instances of Buddhist harping...

[3bob]

I see all of the 8 Jhanas and further "beyond" as being connected... thus not one of them is really corrupt for if one was corrupt then there would be corruption linked throughout all of them! Each builds upon and is related to the other and also further "beyond". Certain Buddhists seemly or directly speak of the Jhanas (effects, states, conditions, etc.) in demeaning and or belittling ways but I don't hear such being spoken by the Buddha; He lived and taught the Jhanas throughout his life and also with his dying breath, thus I don't care much about the negative connotations and what to me is a form of misleading harping touted by certain "experts" along such lines. How about you?

 

Om

Edited June 28, 2010 by 3bob

[RongzomFan]

From Theravada to Vajrayana, the emphasis is to view reality correctly.

 

Never lose sight of that.

 

The fourth jhana is most important. It allows you to access the divya caksus.

This is my understanding of the divya caksus. Shakyamuni used this to trace his previous lives and other peoples previous and future lives. Thus he gained an understanding of karma, rebirth but most importantly DEPENDENT ORIGINATION. This is how he became a Buddha. He also used this to visit the gods I think, like Brahma. Sort of like an astral projection I think. In fact it is impossible for anyone to gain personal experience with higher metaphysics without the divya caksus. It is possible to gain arhatship without it, but you have to take the Buddha's word on higher metaphysics if you do not have it. If you want the personal experience with higher buddhist metaphysics you must have it.

Edited June 28, 2010 by alwayson

[3bob]

From Theravada to Vajrayana, the emphasis is to view reality correctly.

 

Never lose sight of that.

 

The fourth jhana is most important. It allows you to access the divya caksus.

This is my understanding of the divya caksus. Shakyamuni used this to trace his previous lives and other peoples previous and future lives. Thus he gained an understanding of karma, rebirth but most importantly DEPENDENT ORIGINATION. This is how he became a Buddha. He also used this to visit the gods I think, like Brahma. Sort of like an astral projection I think. In fact it is impossible for anyone to gain personal experience with higher metaphysics without the divya caksus. It is possible to gain arhatship without it, but you have to take the Buddha's word on higher metaphysics if you do not have it. If you want the personal experience with higher buddhist metaphysics you must have it.

 

"From Theravada to Vajrayana, the emphasis is to view reality correctly.

Never lose sight of that"... alwayson

 

I feel we can all agree on that!

 

Back to the 8 jhanas for a minute - I'm not qualified on them yet ime I don't see them as being only Buddhist or only of "Buddhist metaphysics" if that what you are saying (?) since such have been discovered and or re-discovered and taught by various paths and people for who knows how long, when or where?! (one example being that which was taught to the Buddha by his "Vedic/upanishad" related type teachers) Thus if or when certain Buddhists discount the jhana teachings that go by different names in other paths, then imo they are also effectivly discounting their own Buddhist teachings related to same.

 

Om

[Gerard]

From Theravada to Vajrayana, the emphasis is to view reality correctly.

 

Never lose sight of that.

 

The fourth jhana is most important. It allows you to access the divya caksus.

This is my understanding of the divya caksus. Shakyamuni used this to trace his previous lives and other peoples previous and future lives. Thus he gained an understanding of karma, rebirth but most importantly DEPENDENT ORIGINATION. This is how he became a Buddha. He also used this to visit the gods I think, like Brahma. Sort of like an astral projection I think. In fact it is impossible for anyone to gain personal experience with higher metaphysics without the divya caksus. It is possible to gain arhatship without it, but you have to take the Buddha's word on higher metaphysics if you do not have it. If you want the personal experience with higher buddhist metaphysics you must have it.

 

 

Well written stuff. Agree 100% with your statement. I would like to add to that that in my experience jhanas are not structured like chronological events despite what some written work may say about this.

 

Qigong and Vipassana work accelerate the process especially if we are carefully watching the mind in a relaxed manner and adequate external environment.

[Vajrahridaya]

Well written stuff. Agree 100% with your statement. I would like to add to that that in my experience jhanas are not structured like chronological events despite what some written work may say about this.

 

Qigong and Vipassana work accelerate the process especially if we are carefully watching the mind in a relaxed manner and adequate external environment.

 

Yes, mine went mostly backwards from highest to lowest, then forwards in linear progression. Oddly enough... all before I had a real vision of the 31 planes of existence at once and all related ramifications.

[ralis]

Yes, mine went mostly backwards from highest to lowest, then forwards in linear progression. Oddly enough... all before I had a real vision of the 31 planes of existence at once and all related ramifications.

 

I had the 64 flavors vision.

 

ralis

[Mark Foote]

I had the 64 flavors vision.

 

ralis

 

Hey, get me a cone!

 

Also agree that actually all the states exist to one degree or another or none. Get me two cones!

 

The cessation of the activities I hope we can agree is the cessation of volition in habitual activities, and the progression is given as speech, inhalation and exhalation, perception and sensation. Yes, the Gautamid saw past lives and karma in the fourth jhanna, according to the texts, especially in the wee hours of the morning. Good time for a couple of cones.

 

Interesting to me that the net result of extending the mind of friendship in 10 directions is the fourth jhana, I could find the text if anybody is interested. Of extending compassion, the mindfulness of infinite ether (space, or the medium of breath?); of extending joy, the mindfulness of infinite consciousness; of extending equanimity, the mindfulness of no-thing. After which all hell breaks loose, ice cream everywhere, kids crying...

[JustARandomPanda]

Certain Buddhists seemly or directly speak of the Jhanas (effects, states, conditions, etc.) in demeaning and or belittling ways but I don't hear such being spoken by the Buddha

 

This is surprising. Which Buddhists are speaking disparagingly of the jhanas? I've never come across anyone stating such things in the books and articles I've read.

[3bob]

This is surprising. Which Buddhists are speaking disparagingly of the jhanas? I've never come across anyone stating such things in the books and articles I've read.

 

I believe the term "bliss junkie" was recently used in another string. (and I'd have go back looking around for it...)

[Birch]

oooh. "Thou shalt not worship any but the one god"(or words to that effect) - methinks this would be some kind of indication for a concentration (one-pointed) practice. Anyway, never mind, I keep finding parallels. Just what I do best

But think the bestest of best recent comparisons I read/found/heard (now not sure which but anyway)was between the Tibetan BOTD and the Bible rendition of the Apocaplyse and the last judgement.

 

 

Very cool! That many cultures have guidebooks for navigating life and death (sort of like a course programme in some kind of university)is really pretty cool. That such guidebooks be adopted as "rulebooks" is really not cool. We could maybe stop doing that and look deeper into the guidebooks?

[Mark Foote]

This is surprising. Which Buddhists are speaking disparagingly of the jhanas? I've never come across anyone stating such things in the books and articles I've read.

 

Didn't mean to speak disparagingly of the jhanas. Not really a Buddhist, except that I believe he was right about suffering, that right knowledge is a knowledge of things as they really are and the truths about suffering are part of that.

 

Have you seen my animation? Ice cream melting under a hat, is here:

 

 

ok, dirty trick to get you to watch it, there is no ice cream under the hat, but it's short and I like it.

[C T]

I believe the term "bliss junkie" was recently used in another string. (and I'd have go back looking around for it...)

Hmm... that would be moi.

 

Must have been what.. 2 weeks ago? I am surprised that you are still carrying this around with you Bob. You remind of Starjumper, who took the observation so personally. Being a general remark, it was not even directed at him, yet the ensuing reaction was quite zealous. And he is supposed to be well-disciplined with years of MA training...

 

Fair enough if there was any actual relation between that term and the jhanas, but if you reread that particular post, it was referring to all those who are hooked on the 'feel good' factor, to the extent they will go to any length to sustain bliss-like conditions around and in them - at any cost. Just listen/read the news and see the kind of antics people get up to. This is not jhana... its subjecting oneself to addictive delusions of the highest kind, and its apparent and prevalently extreme nowadays. Just ask any average teenager how they spend their free time, and you will have verification in this regard. This is just one example. Its spread is wide, and the only way out for most of these people is to 'look for and ride the next bigger wave', if you know what i mean.

[3bob]

Hmm... that would be moi.

 

Must have been what.. 2 weeks ago? I am surprised that you are still carrying this around with you Bob. You remind of Starjumper, who took the observation so personally. Being a general remark, it was not even directed at him, yet the ensuing reaction was quite zealous. And he is supposed to be well-disciplined with years of MA training...

 

Fair enough if there was any actual relation between that term and the jhanas, but if you reread that particular post, it was referring to all those who are hooked on the 'feel good' factor, to the extent they will go to any length to sustain bliss-like conditions around and in them - at any cost. Just listen/read the news and see the kind of antics people get up to. This is not jhana... its subjecting oneself to addictive delusions of the highest kind, and its apparent and prevalently extreme nowadays. Just ask any average teenager how they spend their free time, and you will have verification in this regard. This is just one example. Its spread is wide, and the only way out for most of these people is to 'look for and ride the next bigger wave', if you know what i mean.

 

Hi CowTao,

 

I'm not exactly taking that personally... more like an observation - also as I believe you know everything that has ever passed before our eyes is recorded in the mind/akasa so I don't see much surprise per-se about things being around or revisited.

 

Anyway, imo that was not the only instance of harping. Another recent case (among others) involved a well versed Buddhist proclaiming that his path was the best of all and doing so at largely Taoist sponored site. (?) Btw, seeing that I don't know how to hunt posts down like you have, perhaps you could find that one (quoted or linked) for the rest of us? And if you don't mind I'd like to ask you for your opinion about that statement, which I think several people here took as a form of antics.

 

Regards, Bob

Edited July 2, 2010 by 3bob

[Brian]

...

[anatman]

Hi CowTao,

 

I'm not exactly taking that personally... more like an observation - also as I believe you know everything that has ever passed before our eyes is recorded in the mind/akasa so I don't see much surprise per-se about things being around or revisited.

 

Anyway, imo that was not the only instance of harping. Another recent case (among others) involved a well versed Buddhist proclaiming that his path was the best of all and doing so at largely Taoist sponored site. (?) Btw, seeing that I don't know how to hunt posts down like you have, perhaps you could find that one (quoted or linked) for the rest of us? And if you don't mind I'd like to ask you for your opinion about that statement, which I think several people here took as a form of antics.

 

Regards, Bob

 

just a short comment on your post.

for starters(imo)only a fool insists their path(beliefs)are the only correct(right)one.the buddha didn't teach that.

second,and i could be wrong,it seems that you are taking that statement personelly.if it didn't bother you,it would seem you wouldn't have said that.but i could be wrong.

[ralis]

just a short comment on your post.

for starters(imo)only a fool insists their path(beliefs)are the only correct(right)one.the buddha didn't teach that.

second,and i could be wrong,it seems that you are taking that statement personelly.if it didn't bother you,it would seem you wouldn't have said that.but i could be wrong.

 

In terms of this same issue, I have been speaking out for months. Vajraji has been dominating every thread proclaiming that Buddhism is the absolute truth.

 

 

ralis

[JustARandomPanda]

In terms of this same issue, I have been speaking out for months. Vajraji has been dominating every thread proclaiming that Buddhism is the absolute truth.

 

 

ralis

 

Do you personally believe there is or can be such a thing as absolute truth? Especially vis-a-vis religious or spiritual beliefs? That is - ones that hold true for all time, all people, all places, etc?

 

Also,

 

I take it at some time in the distant past you were a Buddhist but then abandoned that belief system? Or is this incorrect? Are you a Taoist now?

 

Just curious.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

"From Theravada to Vajrayana, the emphasis is to view reality correctly.

Never lose sight of that"... alwayson

 

I feel we can all agree on that!

 

 

 

I don't agree on that. We only imagine that reality can be apprehended, let alone be "viewed correctly".

[DarthBane]

was going to write but decided I didnt have anything to say.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Guest

[Mark Foote]

I don't agree on that. We only imagine that reality can be apprehended, let alone be "viewed correctly".

 

I see now that I am paranoid and imagine that people are talking about me when in fact they are not. Hmmm, stay tuned for voices, and possibly past lives.

 

I agree with 'Songs, that reality can't be apprehend; I disagree, that there is no such thing as view (in relationship to other things) that is conducive to an end of suffering.

 

Is it possible to share so much as a fart? I think it was Sawaki, the Japanese teacher, who said it was not. Can we teach ourselves without a teacher? Can we teach each other? Can we say something significant to another that is not significant to us, personally? Can we know what we're going to say before we start writing and still speak to ourselves?- doesn't feel like we can, maybe that's just me.

 

Kate, have you seen Apepch7's writings?

[nac]

Vajraji has been dominating every thread proclaiming that Buddhism is the absolute truth.

Could you please post one specific example? I only remember seeing him discuss his own beliefs.

[ralis]

Do you personally believe there is or can be such a thing as absolute truth? Especially vis-a-vis religious or spiritual beliefs? That is - ones that hold true for all time, all people, all places, etc?

 

Also,

 

I take it at some time in the distant past you were a Buddhist but then abandoned that belief system? Or is this incorrect? Are you a Taoist now?

 

Just curious.

 

Honestly, I find it difficult to put labels on myself. Labels limit one to a specific belief system and group ideology. Maybe best described as a strange loop that one never really escapes from.

 

I studied Buddhism for many years and found it to be dogmatic, authoritarian, and hierarchical. The Lama hierarchy rigidly limits the so called higher teachings to one's who have completed 3 year retreats. Even then, the very secret teachings are not usually revealed. I know of one Lama who is trying to reveal more. However, he assigns a number of prerequisites to be completed before further teachings are revealed. Years ago, I have received a few from this teacher and found them to be fragments of a larger system. Definitely a rip off!

In general, these teachings were borrowed from other cultures (India, Mongolia and China)and integrated within the Lama system (Lamaism) of so called Buddhism. The claim is made that these teachings are the highest (whatever that means) teachings for this lower realm (whatever that means).

 

In general, because of religious doctrine and superstition, humans generally are anthropocentric in their point of view. Therefor, all appeals for some fundamental absolute truth are based on this narrow point of view. Consequently many belief systems are founded on this error. Is it possible for one to apprehend the totally of all phenomena? I don't see how that would be possible. Recently Vajraji claimed the Buddha was omniscient. There is no proof of that.

 

 

ralis

[ralis]

Could you please post one specific example? I only remember seeing him discuss his own beliefs.

 

Look it up for yourself. There are many examples.

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

just a short comment on your post.

for starters(imo)only a fool insists their path(beliefs)are the only correct(right)one.the buddha didn't teach that.

 

Actually the Buddha did, as did proceeding Buddhas. The Buddha said that only the contemplation of "right view" leads to liberation without residue. Not that people who are not labeled Buddhist cannot have this realization, but that this realization was not elaborated to such clarity before the Buddha did in this era. He did say this plenty of times.

[Vajrahridaya]

I don't see how that would be possible. Recently Vajraji claimed the Buddha was omniscient. There is no proof of that.

 

 

ralis

 

Omniscient is the Western term for a Pali term associated with the Buddhas teachings. What omniscient means for a Buddha is not the same as what it means in Western Theist understanding. What the Buddha is omniscient of is the nature of things, basically, how things work. Not that he knows every infinite particular of everything, but basically the way things manifest. In states of meditation he can get into a state of psychic ability transcending time and space and have remote visions of things that have happened and possible happenings in the future based upon seeing patterns. This type of omniscience is not the same as what you would identify the word with using Orthodox Theistic interpretations of the word, which is where the Western equivalent comes from. So, in order to speak a term of Western origin into Buddhist interpretation does take contextualization, of which you do seem to ignore and harp the same mis-understandings over and over again due to lack of insight.

 

You have many mental dogmas which limit your ability to understand what many of us are talking about here who are part of the Buddha family.

 

You keep projecting from an inability to understand outside of your own conditioning.

 

The Buddha view is viewless view... which you don't understand because you don't even intellectually understanding the Buddhas teaching of interdependent origination/emptiness, which is actually deeply organic and not mechanistic as you haven't seen into stages of samadhi, thus your understanding and interpretation reflects your level of experience.