Certain instances of Buddhist harping...

[3bob]

"The realization of luminosity, or nonduality, is realized by all mystical traditions because they all aim to dissolve the self (thoughts and sensations), but the realization of non-inherence does not come from dissolving the self. It comes through inquiring into the very nature of self on a grand scale. The self of luminosity must be seen through. This is what you keep missing. You think emptiness means luminosity, when actually emptiness is the nature of luminosity". Mikaelz

 

OK... Although in some schools besides those of Buddhism the "Self" is pointed to as that beyond "luminosity" which is something that certain Buddhists apparently do not recognize about those schools and thus more or less stereo-type all others in ways that it sounds like you doing above.

 

Anyway, if you are saying all of "mind" must be seen through, even the most subtle and purest luminosity, then maybe we agree along those lines?

 

Om

[Starjumper]

When you mentioned him (Dolly) I connected to him for a couple of seconds. He has plenty of suffering, it's good to know he is human.

Sounds like you were just connecting to a deeper part of yourself, the part that is full of anger and fear, the part of you that makes you post in such an aggressive and hostile way.

Oh cool, another expert on me, obviously you don't know much about Taoism or it's practitioners.

 

Anyway, what I actually got from Dolly was sadness, a fair amount of sadness, and I chose to call that suffering.

 

Please share more of your exalted wisdom with us. It's obvious that your deep practices have truly developed you into a kind, wise, and patient being.

 

Really, it shows that much? I'll have to hide it even more.

 

I think any tradition has qualities of kindness, patience, and skillfulness as marks of wisdom, and whatever your path is, you're surely failing. Sorry.

[Vajrahridaya]

Exactly how can you prove that the majority of this cosmos suffers? You posit broad generalizations that have no basis in fact.

 

You state you are not putting Taoists down and yet in the next sentence you contradict that statement. Do you even read what you write?

 

 

ralis

 

You don't really read what I write, you only read how you read what I write.

 

I'm not putting down individuals themselves, just as the Dalai Lama doesn't put down Chinese even though he sees that communist totalitarianism is an all absorbing reality that many Chinese are victims of.

 

Taoism is a much higher non-dual belief system than Communism by a huge, huge margin.

[Vajrahridaya]

Wow! Post of the century imo....

 

Hey 3Bob.. whats your stand here? Dont you agree this is a mighty fine piece of writing? What kind of harping would you call this?

 

Deeply pushed button harping!

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

For sure there are lots of Buddhist energy work practices but they seem to ask you to sign up to the whole shebang first before they let those out. I'm not signing up for anything, thank you. I think Taoism is just more open with many of its practices (they're also simpler for me). Where's the Buddhist energy practice forum that gets into such detail?

 

 

Yes, the goal of Buddhism is in general quite different from the Taoist goal. Buddhist Tantric masters generally keep their stuff quite secret for posterity. Of course... I know of plenty of secret Taoist stuff too that you can't get into unless you get direct initiation into a particular lineage. Most of the stuff you get in mass is not the nitty gritty Taoism. It's the same with Hinduism.

Besides, in all of human history, who exactly has been "saved" with any of this stuff? If you're liberated enough, you might just see that other people have also chosen their paths. That means that Buddha has chosen it too. Who's not to say I'm in fact a once-returner that's simply working on a few things down here for a while until I can be arsed to move on. Besides, I LOVE it here, the weather's wonderful.

 

I've said this same thing myself about practitioners of other paths. Though I've been Buddhist for many lifetimes, I came into a Monist path in the start of this life in order to more directly practice the 4 immeasurables without the distraction of the nitty gritty detail oriented Buddhism as focusing on everything as being "God" is a much simpler approach. So, I came to a level of experiential understanding of the 4 immeasurables which are deeply necessary for liberation before coming back to Buddhism to go deeper again.

[Vajrahridaya]

What the Buddhists try to patent and license for themselves is rather ordinary to everyone with no exception. The quality of being luminous is what lights all phenomena so that all phenomena can be seen. The brain works by interpreting frequencies in terms of color, degrees of light etc. In other words there is light everywhere I look. Any text on neurophysiology will confirm that. I guess it is all in my head. :lol: It is no mystery!

 

The problem here is the Buddhists denial of science. They think science is way too material.

 

 

ralis

 

Yes, but Buddha insight of dependent origination empties this experience of luminosity of it's self attachment or clinging to existence.

[ralis]

You don't really read what I write, you only read how you read what I write.

 

I'm not putting down individuals themselves, just as the Dalai Lama doesn't put down Chinese even though he sees that communist totalitarianism is an all absorbing reality that many Chinese are victims of.

 

Taoism is a much higher non-dual belief system than Communism by a huge, huge margin.

 

Exactly, who are you putting down? You berate the Taoist system as being lesser than your lofty belief system.

 

Communism is slightly less non dual than Taoism? What does that mean? Further, non dualism as it is defined, could never have levels as your posts imply. One is either in the non dual state or not.

 

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

OK... Although in some schools besides those of Buddhism the "Self" is pointed to as that beyond "luminosity" which is something that certain Buddhists apparently do not recognize about those schools and thus more or less stereo-type all others in ways that it sounds like you doing above.

 

 

There is no all absorbing Self in Buddhist cosmology of any sort.

[Vajrahridaya]

Further, non dualism as it is defined, could never have levels as your posts imply. One is either in the non dual state or not.

 

 

ralis

 

 

I used to agree with this and think of this dogma as a fundamental insight. There is deeper though.

[ralis]

Yes, but Buddha insight of dependent origination empties this experience of luminosity of it's self attachment or clinging to existence.

 

 

Again, you see this as a universal necessity. However, your point of view is neither universal or necessary. Further, how can dependent origination empty the experience of luminosity? Further, luminosity is self attached? That argument is without any foundation in reality.

 

ralis

[ralis]

I used to agree with this and think of this dogma as a fundamental insight. There is deeper though.

 

Your incomplete sentences help no one and further muddy the issue. "There is deeper though"? What does that mean?

[ralis]

I used to agree with this and think of this dogma as a fundamental insight. There is deeper though.

 

I wasn't stating dogma as you often do.

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

That argument is without any foundation in reality.

 

ralis

 

There is no reality to be founded, only relations of relativity without ontological essence.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

"There is deeper though"? What does that mean?

 

It would behoove you to find out if you were so inclined to be cognizant of your own lack of essence.

 

This sounds paradoxical, doesn't it?

Edited July 10, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

I wasn't stating dogma as you often do.

 

ralis

 

Actually you do state many dogmas, but of this you are not aware.

[adept]

Though I've been Buddhist for many lifetimes

 

Oh dear ! :lol:

[Vajrahridaya]

Oh dear ! :lol:

 

In the highest form of Buddha (awake) interpretation of cosmos, you are reborn endlessly, but with consciousness of this, as in you are awake of your intentions to do so.

 

Just as the Buddha is and was. To see the empty nature of rebirth is to transcend this, even while doing this.

 

 

Much like the Dalai Lama.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[3bob]

There is no all absorbing Self in Buddhist cosmology of any sort.

 

My interpretation is that when we take the lesson of the four fold negation (which btw imo also has a certain aspect of affirmation to it) then all of this talk of concepts, etc.. can be seen or taken from a more useful perspective, but if not then instances of speculation or other extremes like grandstanding tend to occur - just as the historic Buddha and other wise teachers have pointed out and or warned about.

 

Om

Edited July 10, 2010 by 3bob

[Vajrahridaya]

My interpretation is that when we take the lesson of the four fold negation (which btw imo also has a certain aspect of affirmation to it) then all of this talk of concepts, etc.. can be seen or taken from a more useful perspective, but if not then instances of speculation or other extremes like grandstanding tend to occur - just as the historic Buddha and other wise teachers have pointed out and or warned about.

 

Om

 

The Buddha as well argued against erroneous views for the sake of clarity for his own disciples even if the people he argued with did not go away with understanding, the onlookers open to the outcome of the arguments did. But yes... there is no ultimate view, and that's Buddhisms ultimate view unlike other paths which take up a view as an ontological essence of all mind and matter.

[Birch]

"Buddhist Tantric masters generally keep their stuff quite secret for posterity."

 

- or, how about they keep it secret for other reasons?

 

 

Of course... I know of plenty of secret Taoist stuff too that you can't get into unless you get direct initiation into a particular lineage.

 

- whats the point of having a bunch of different lineages in the same religion? Or is it strategy?

 

 

Most of the stuff you get in mass is not the nitty gritty Taoism. It's the same with Hinduism.

 

- again, why bother to hide things?

[ralis]

"Buddhist Tantric masters generally keep their stuff quite secret for posterity."

 

- or, how about they keep it secret for other reasons?

 

 

Of course... I know of plenty of secret Taoist stuff too that you can't get into unless you get direct initiation into a particular lineage.

 

- whats the point of having a bunch of different lineages in the same religion? Or is it strategy?

 

 

Most of the stuff you get in mass is not the nitty gritty Taoism. It's the same with Hinduism.

 

- again, why bother to hide things?

 

 

 

 

From my experience it is about power and control. Power shared is power lost or that is what these so called masters believe.

 

I appreciate your astute observations.

 

 

ralis

Edited July 10, 2010 by ralis

[ralis]

Hi Kate, I agree. Even some stuff that isn't necessarily secret may not be written about because there are minute dynamic details that work better when the teacher is right next to you (or there via skype as I read on one of your posts?). Being able to ask questions, develop awareness, refine practice, and then to ask more questions, develop deeper awareness, refine practice. A constant loop, y'know?

 

 

In part that is true. However, the display of power and hierarchy are very real.

 

 

ralis

[3bob]

"Buddhist Tantric masters generally keep their stuff quite secret for posterity."

 

- or, how about they keep it secret for other reasons?

 

Of course... I know of plenty of secret Taoist stuff too that you can't get into unless you get direct initiation into a particular lineage.

 

- whats the point of having a bunch of different lineages in the same religion? Or is it strategy?

 

Most of the stuff you get in mass is not the nitty gritty Taoism. It's the same with Hinduism.

 

- again, why bother to hide things?

 

There are reasons that untrained, untested, unproven, and thus unqualified people are not sent out to work on high voltage utility power lines... for similar reasons although in different realms such reasoning also applies to not sending out unqualified "spiritual" workers.

[Birch]

"although in different realms such reasoning also applies to not sending out unqualified "spiritual" workers."

 

I believe this to be conjecture yet I feel like agreeing with you because you used an argument I already agree with. And that's somewhat unfair of you to do that when I asked a real question from a position of real concern.

 

I agree with the position that RV took with respect to practice subtleties but let's not mix up things just because it suits another agenda. There's enough of that elsewhere...

[Starjumper]

In part that is true. However, the display of power and hierarchy are very real.

I think you may be taking this in the wrong direction due to the tone of it. It hasn't been my experience at all in Taoist systems. Of course my teachers have been way more powerful than I, and I am more powerful than my students, but this is chi power or martial prowess we are talking about, not some kind of leveraged social power. Also, there is a clear hierarchy, those who have more chi power and special abilities are higher, and they are teachers too, even if they are fellow students.

 

What is not there is what you call the 'display'. There is no display of this kind of BS in the Taoist practices I have learned. It's always like a gathering of friends, very casual and comfortable with a great deal of mutual respect.

 

I've seen the kind of disgusting displays you are referring to, and it's always been in lineages tainted with Buddhism, which is not to say that all the Buddhist teachers are like that, just many of them.

 

When all they are good for is the printing on a piece of paper then they have to make up for their lacking by demanding a little cow towing, right?

Edited July 10, 2010 by Starjumper7