Certain instances of Buddhist harping...

[ralis]

There are reasons that untrained, untested, unproven, and thus unqualified people are not sent out to work on high voltage utility power lines... for similar reasons although in different realms such reasoning also applies to not sending out unqualified "spiritual" workers.

 

Exactly who or by what criteria determines if one is qualified or not? Are you meaning spiritual preachers? Who is sending?

 

 

ralis

[ralis]

I think you may be taking this in the wrong direction due to the tone of it. It hasn't been my experience at all in Taoist systems. Of course my teachers have been way more powerful than I, and I am more powerful than my students, but this is chi power or martial prowess we are talking about, not some kind of leveraged social power. Also, there is a clear hierarchy, those who have more chi power and special abilities are higher, and they are teachers too, even if they are fellow students.

 

What is not there is what you call the 'display'. There is no display of this kind of BS in the Taoist practices I have learned. It's always like a gathering of friends, very casual and comfortable with a great deal of mutual respect.

 

I've seen the kind of disgusting displays you are referring to, and it's always been in lineages tainted with Buddhism, which is not to say that all the Buddhist teachers are like that, just many of them.

 

When all they are good for is the printing on a piece of paper then they have to make up for their lacking by demanding a little cow towing, right?

 

 

Sorry, I was not very clear. I was referring to secret teaching lineages that are usually Buddhist.

[3bob]

Exactly who or by what criteria determines if one is qualified or not? Are you meaning spiritual preachers? Who is sending?

 

ralis

 

well, and for example on the human related level ask yourself who is qualified to fully take care of young kids (like 1-4 year olds) and then extrapolate that out if you will and ask yourself who is qualified and to be trusted to the ends of the earth or to the ends of the universe for the well being of all Beings? (Granted there are also intermediate levels between such)

Edited July 10, 2010 by 3bob

[ralis]

well, and for example on the human related level ask yourself who is qualified to fully take care of young kids (like 1-4 year olds) and then extrapolate that out if you will and ask yourself who is qualified and to be trusted to the ends of the earth or to the ends of the universe for the well being of all Beings? (Granted there are also intermediate levels between such)

 

One can't extrapolate and project into the cosmos from your example. I have no idea if the cosmos has the best interest of beings in mind. I rather doubt it!

 

 

ralis

[Sunya]

- again, why bother to hide things?

 

Why hide guns from children? Why have a minimum driving age? Some methods would only prove to be dangerous if put into the hands of those that aren't ready. Anyway, most if not all Vajrayana methods are public nowadays. But it helps to have the transmission which is really more like an energy/blessings transference which really helps get the practice going.

Edited July 10, 2010 by mikaelz

[3bob]

 

One can't extrapolate and project into the cosmos from your example. I have no idea if the cosmos has the best interest of beings in mind. I rather doubt it!

 

ralis

 

And why can't one extrapolate in such a way? For instance if a beginning student (or caretaker in this instance) has simple honesty then there is a foundation already in place for that same simple honesty being extrapolated out and also active in the most advanced and cultivated sage.

[Vajrahridaya]

"Buddhist Tantric masters generally keep their stuff quite secret for posterity."

 

- or, how about they keep it secret for other reasons?

 

 

The reasons are the possibility of abuse and misuse, much like Dzogchen does these days where people read some books and completely misunderstand because they haven't had any training in how to interpret properly. Also the practices should not be done unless a person is ready, otherwise they can lead to damage instead of help.

 

 

 

Of course... I know of plenty of secret Taoist stuff too that you can't get into unless you get direct initiation into a particular lineage.

 

- whats the point of having a bunch of different lineages in the same religion? Or is it strategy?

 

It just happens that different masters have their own traditions within the same path. It's just the way of things because there's lots of different people and everyone doesn't live together. Different people are influenced by many different variables and need different things at different times, or the same things at different times from different presentations. But all Buddhist traditions, generally speaking have the same flavor or the same marks that make Buddhadharma different from other religions.

 

Most of the stuff you get in mass is not the nitty gritty Taoism. It's the same with Hinduism.

 

- again, why bother to hide things?

 

Because of abuse. I don't know if you'll get this reason, but think about how most people are. Most people aren't ready for certain things and need to be blinded from some things in order to even make progress, then when they are ready to see what's behind door number 2 or 7, the Master shows up and it's revealed as if it was never hidden.

 

When I say I don't know if you'll get this reason, is because I've had this discussion many times before and most people who see something in their way, don't change their minds. People want what they want and they don't care if it's not healthy for them as of yet.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

3bobs' and Michaelz comments are good enough.

 

In general though, we see what we want. If we are embittered, then this view will taint our interpretation of things. We will see only that which supports our inner state of bitterness.

 

So, it's not that there aren't those teachers that abuse such power and hierarchy, but at the same time, there are plenty that do not. I don't look at those that abuse this power and position of being a qualified teacher, so I am not embittered by those that do.

[ralis]

3bobs' and Michaelz comments are good enough.

 

In general though, we see what we want. If we are embittered, then this view will taint our interpretation of things. We will see only that which supports our inner state of bitterness.

 

So, it's not that there aren't those teachers that abuse such power and hierarchy, but at the same time, there are plenty that do not. I don't look at those that abuse this power and position of being a qualified teacher, so I am not embittered by those that do.

 

Sounds as if you believe in free will. A few weeks ago you opposed it while framing free will as an illusion.

 

Any system that presents itself as a hierarchy, is displaying power. All who approach must defer to it.

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Sounds as if you believe in free will. A few weeks ago you opposed it while framing free will as an illusion.

 

Any system that presents itself as a hierarchy, is displaying power. All who approach must defer to it.

 

ralis

 

I believe in conditions that manipulate a persons choices. There is no illusion per say, only mis-understanding. There is free awareness if emptiness is recognized directly but will is a conditioned phenomena. We all make choices dependent upon conditions, some peoples conditions are liberating and others are bound and most are in between still trying to figure it out.

[Brian]

...

[Vajrahridaya]

The misconception that knowledge/information/skills/etc. "kept secret" results in increased value/power is common though illogical & refuted by observation. It is seen in all fields & walks of life even though experience shows the exact opposite to be a more general truth.

 

I find your view quite illogical. For the reasons explained above by me, 3bob and Michaelz.

[Brian]

...

[Sunya]

No, I maintain my position. There is a significant difference between "keeping information secret" and "teaching at a level the student is prepared to accept & absorb." The former is illogical while the latter is pragmatic. Medical schools, for instance, don't start with brain surgery practicals but also don't withhold that knowledge.

 

Kate's question specifically referred to the former. In your subsequent responses, you clarified that you meant the latter. As such, my reply to Kate would not apply to the situation you describe.

 

Look, there really are no secrets in Buddhism. To become fully realized, all you have to do is study what the Buddha taught or find a book by a good Southeast Asian, Chinese, Japanese, or Tibetan master who puts things into a more modern context. It's rather simple. All you need is the view, and that is no secret.

 

The view is like a path so you know where you're going. Sometimes people want a faster method of transportation, or perhaps they have a certain obstacle that they need to go through. If you have a rhino infront of you, you need to know how to overcome that obstacle. There can be a specific method for that situation, but it won't help in other situations.. and can actually be harmful. For example, shooting a gun into the air can scare off some animals while others will just pounce on you. So teaching everyone the method of shooting your gun into the air will just be stupid, wouldn't it? Also, if someone is too stupid to handle a gun.. they shouldn't even try it.

 

Freedom of information isn't always the best thing, especially when the majority of people have no clue what they are doing. People don't understand the first thing about spirituality, so teaching them certain methods will only harm them, or will just waste their time.

 

If you believe that there should be no secrets, you really need to go out and meet more people and see what they are like and their current state. Not only are most people not ready at all for anything beyond the slow methods, but they would degrade the essence of the high methods entirely and they would lose value. This is what our society does. Look at shamanism, it became huge and now the majority of shamans are just stoners and druggies that worry about Atlantis and how big their next crystal will be.

[C T]

From experience, i would say, referencing the Buddhist teachings/path here, that teachers do not intentionally hide things from students. Some teachers (most do btw) give the same fundamental teachings over and over, but then how it is absorbed and revealed is entirely up to individual growth according to layers of blockages that are removed. For example, the way i assimilate the basic truth of the Noble 8fold Path 20 years ago and now is totally different. The Teaching of the 8fold Path has remained the same, yet its depth just seems to go deeper and deeper with time. Does that mean that there are secrets contained within, and are hidden from me? Or is it simply that it unfolds according to wisdom experience? When the student is ready, the truth behind the teachings are revealed, as the saying goes.

 

Another example: Lets say a student follows a teacher for X number of years, and faithfully attends all the teachings given by this teacher. The primary message taught is always the same: (for instance) "Just let your thoughts settle in the natural state of no-mind". Now the student may think long and hard that there must be some hidden truth behind this statement, for indeed it does sound too profoundly simple to be true. Time and time again he/she pesters the teacher with many questions to address all the doubts that arises, and each time the teacher says the same thing... "Just let your thoughts settle in the natural state of no-mind, and you will attain to that." So what does this student do? Feeling exasperated, this student will tend to create all kinds of obstacles to complicate the journey within just for the sake of identifying with his/her own preconceived, often paranoidal notions of what the teacher is trying to hide, when in fact nothing is being hidden. Then one day, after years of contemplation, the student finally attains satori, and realizes then and there that in actuality, indeed no secret was kept from him/her, and the teacher was sincerely upfront all along. At that point, what's left to be done, but laugh, and realize how tricky the mind can be at times...

[JustARandomPanda]

I am reading Play of Consciousness now and on the chapters of Muktananda worshipping his guru. I don't know whether to be creeped out by it or just see it as one culture's version of single-minded meditative concentrative focus that just happens to use a person as the focal point.

 

For some reason while reading it this thread and Ralis' comments came to mind. It's not only Buddhism that seems to display hierarchy.

 

I'm trying to remain open-minded about what I'm reading. At least it seems like Muktananda's guru didn't abuse his position of being worshiped by his disciples. But there's no doubt he actively encouraged Muktananda (and I presume at least some of his other disciples) to engage in such worship.

[C T]

I am reading Play of Consciousness now and on the chapters of Muktananda worshipping his guru. I don't know whether to be creeped out by it or just see it as one culture's version of single-minded meditative concentrative focus that just happens to use a person as the focal point.

 

For some reason while reading it this thread and Ralis' comments came to mind. It's not only Buddhism that seems to display hierarchy.

 

I'm trying to remain open-minded about what I'm reading. At least it seems like Muktananda's guru didn't abuse his position of being worshiped by his disciples. But there's no doubt he actively encouraged Muktananda (and I presume at least some of his other disciples) to engage in such worship.

I personally think there are no hierarchies in Buddhism. However, within specific traditions, where Guru Yoga is taken as the path, it does appear to outside eyes as though there are obvious remnants of it, but that is only when the preliminaries are practiced, or the contextual aspects of Guru Yoga are being emphasized. After that, in the fruition aspects, or at the realizational levels, all perceived hierarchies are merged, meaning one then becomes inseparable from the Guru, or one is none other than the Guru.

[Sunya]

Another example: Lets say a student follows a teacher for X number of years, and faithfully attends all the teachings given by this teacher. The primary message taught is always the same: (for instance) "Just let your thoughts settle in the natural state of no-mind". Now the student may think long and hard that there must be some hidden truth behind this statement, for indeed it does sound too profoundly simple to be true. Time and time again he/she pesters the teacher with many questions to address all the doubts that arises, and each time the teacher says the same thing... "Just let your thoughts settle in the natural state of no-mind, and you will attain to that." So what does this student do? Feeling exasperated, this student will tend to create all kinds of obstacles to complicate the journey within just for the sake of identifying with his/her own preconceived, often paranoidal notions of what the teacher is trying to hide, when in fact nothing is being hidden. Then one day, after years of contemplation, the student finally attains satori, and realizes then and there that in actuality, indeed no secret was kept from him/her, and the teacher was sincerely upfront all along. At that point, what's left to be done, but laugh, and realize how tricky the mind can be at times...

 

 

I am reading Play of Consciousness now and on the chapters of Muktananda worshipping his guru. I don't know whether to be creeped out by it or just see it as one culture's version of single-minded meditative concentrative focus that just happens to use a person as the focal point.

 

For some reason while reading it this thread and Ralis' comments came to mind. It's not only Buddhism that seems to display hierarchy.

 

I'm trying to remain open-minded about what I'm reading. At least it seems like Muktananda's guru didn't abuse his position of being worshiped by his disciples. But there's no doubt he actively encouraged Muktananda (and I presume at least some of his other disciples) to engage in such worship.

 

It's all method. Direct mind to mind transference. Inspires surrender and devotion...and it works.

Edited July 11, 2010 by mikaelz

[Vajrahridaya]

No, I maintain my position. There is a significant difference between "keeping information secret" and "teaching at a level the student is prepared to accept & absorb." The former is illogical while the latter is pragmatic. Medical schools, for instance, don't start with brain surgery practicals but also don't withhold that knowledge.

 

Kate's question specifically referred to the former. In your subsequent responses, you clarified that you meant the latter. As such, my reply to Kate would not apply to the situation you describe.

 

Oh ok... very good.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

 

It's all method. Direct mind to mind transference. Inspires surrender and devotion...and it works.

 

It works super, super well! It's amazing the states of consciousness that can happen for me while doing Guru Yoga. I have full experiential faith that Guru Yoga can lead directly to complete and total liberation!! Of course, this doesn't mean being attached to a single person, it's more like what you said above Michaelz! It really, really works and that love just goes out to all beings anyway because the Guru is so already expanded and connected, so the mind becomes exactly like that which it focuses upon. The same inner states of realization start arising naturally when one focuses on ones Guru with great love and devotion, it's incredible!

[Vajrahridaya]

I am reading Play of Consciousness

 

That's an awesome book! My wife read it and started having dreams with Muktananda.

[Mark Foote]

Suffering and attachment is a very deep affliction and is the cause of all the worlds problems. When one says that I only see the path when I am suffering and not when I am not, that means that the potential for suffering is still there. Only dependent origination/emptiness sees the cause and the effect as inherently empty. All other paths see something there, some inherent "that" or "this" that is beyond concept as the supreme cause of all things, even if blissful for a time being is not the experience of emptiness and it's illumination through recognition which is really free from this potential for future suffering. Dependent origination is not concerned with comfort zones, or passing spaces of happiness that are dependent upon this or that condition. Only emptiness through the teachings of what the Buddha said which did not appear before him in this eon lead to complete emptiness of the possibility of future suffering, in this lifetime or many more to come.

 

 

Yes the potential for suffering is still there.

 

Now for me, right view involves not only the recognition that attachment, aversion, and ignorance condition the place of occurrence of consciousness and result in suffering, but also the recognition that I cannot help being drawn to that which is marked by a non-material happiness.

 

When I sit, I set up mindfulness of ji, chi, and shen, as it were, and then I let it go, if I'm lucky (must be why I'm so sore today, doing nothing!). The transition from the first jhana to the second is marked by thought no longer applied and sustained. I can't say that I can do even this!~ how can you claim to have right view?

[Brian]

...

[Vajrahridaya]

how can you claim to have right view?

 

I do have direct experience of all the Jhanas at one point or another. Not that I've mastered them, but I have stumbled upon each and every one during one meditation or another.

 

Thanks for sharing Mark! May I also have more diligence in practice in order to fully realize "right view".

[ralis]

I do have direct experience of all the Jhanas at one point or another. Not that I've mastered them, but I have stumbled upon each and every one during one meditation or another.

 

Thanks for sharing Mark! May I also have more diligence in practice in order to fully realize "right view".

 

 

You somehow believe the "right view" is out there somewhere, yet you have never realized the "right view". How can you discern what is "right"? Circular reasoning to the nth degree!

 

ralis