Certain instances of Buddhist harping...

[Vajrahridaya]

You somehow believe the "right view" is out there somewhere, yet you have never realized the "right view". How can you discern what is "right"? Circular reasoning to the nth degree!

 

ralis

 

You are quite funny.

 

Right view is merely dependent origination. So, I actually do know right view directly due to having direct experience of emptiness and all the various stages of consciousness and co-relating experiences with the 31 realms that go along with the different jhanas. I just haven't completed the outcome of the path, so am trying to remain humble. Even though I do see directly what the cause of my bondage is through the glimpses beyond it. I just haven't completed the unraveling process.

 

I thank you for helping with my patience ralis!! You my dear are an enemy causing me great fortune!!

Edited July 11, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Mark Foote]

You are quite funny.

 

Right view is merely dependent origination. So, I actually do know right view directly due to having direct experience of emptiness and all the various stages of consciousness and co-relating experiences with the 31 realms that go along with the different jhanas. I just haven't completed the outcome of the path, so am trying to remain humble. Even though I do see directly what the cause of my bondage is through the glimpses beyond it. I just haven't completed the unraveling process.

 

I thank you for helping with my patience ralis!! You my dear are an enemy causing me great fortune!!

(something for Kate, between rounds- ha ha!- part of a screen by Kawanabe Kyosai 1831-1889)

Edited July 12, 2010 by Mark Foote

[Vajrahridaya]

(something for Kate, between rounds- ha ha!- part of a screen by Kawanabe Kyosai 1831-1889)

 

Thank you for showing me how ostentatious I can be. :lol:

[Birch]

Thanks Mark!

 

I was talking about horses this morning with PW. How coincidental that you post this ! (well of course it's not really but never mind )

 

My take on "right view" is that it's just another training vehicle - to get one to go another way from which one habitually goes (if you swim with the current all the time you can't feel it and if you swim against the current all the time then you feel it too much.)

 

But if you stop swimming, then what happens?

[Brian]

...

[C T]

 

My take on "right view" is that it's just another training vehicle - to get one to go another way from which one habitually goes (if you swim with the current all the time you can't feel it and if you swim against the current all the time then you feel it too much.)

 

But if you stop swimming, then what happens?

More than this, Kate... much much more. Its not so much about swimming against or with the current.. its about finally being OK with oneself when one realizes sinking has become inevitable...

 

 

 

"...so even if the hot loneliness is there, and for 1.6 seconds we are able to sit with that restlessness, when yesterday we could not even sit for one, that's the journey of the warrior."

 

"I used to have a sign pinned up on the wall that read: 'Only to the extent we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us."

 

"A further sign of health is that we do not become undone by fear and trembling, but take it as a message that its time to stop struggling and look directly at what is threatening us."

 

(Quotes from Pema Chodron)

[Birch]

"More than this, Kate... much much more. Its not so much about swimming against or with the current.. its about finally being OK with oneself when one realizes sinking has become inevitable..."

 

- Thanks Mr Cow. I'm starting to figure, however, that the quality of this "me" stuff isn't really "mine" to begin with...As such, no, I'm NOT ok with "myself" - so have to start over and do one that I do actually feel ok with. So we re-condition.

 

All that many mind control techniques will do is show you where the stuff is. So yes, you can see it lit up like a christmas tree, then what? Lots of options available, not all of them effective.

 

I've heard some aspects of "spirituality" especially in Eastern tradition calling for the removal of the offending article (i.e. the ego) and I've also read that doing so is the equivalent of a "spiritual bypass".

 

 

 

"...so even if the hot loneliness is there, and for 1.6 seconds we are able to sit with that restlessness, when yesterday we could not even sit for one, that's the journey of the warrior."

 

- It could also be called foolish. Unless one is going to find a way through, why submit "oneself" to any more?

 

"I used to have a sign pinned up on the wall that read: 'Only to the extent we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us."

 

- Right, I've found it. As you might know, one of my practices is something I call "dropping the ego off itself" Fine. Next.

 

"A further sign of health is that we do not become undone by fear and trembling, but take it as a message that its time to stop struggling and look directly at what is threatening us."

 

- Right, i've looked. I know what it is. Next?

 

(Quotes from Pema Chodron)

 

- She's one of the authors I find the most irritating. Reckon the nun in me is reacting ;-)?

[C T]

"More than this, Kate... much much more. Its not so much about swimming against or with the current.. its about finally being OK with oneself when one realizes sinking has become inevitable..."

 

- Thanks Mr Cow. I'm starting to figure, however, that the quality of this "me" stuff isn't really "mine" to begin with...As such, no, I'm NOT ok with "myself" - so have to start over and do one that I do actually feel ok with. So we re-condition.

 

All that many mind control techniques will do is show you where the stuff is. So yes, you can see it lit up like a christmas tree, then what? Lots of options available, not all of them effective.

 

I've heard some aspects of "spirituality" especially in Eastern tradition calling for the removal of the offending article (i.e. the ego) and I've also read that doing so is the equivalent of a "spiritual bypass".

 

 

 

"...so even if the hot loneliness is there, and for 1.6 seconds we are able to sit with that restlessness, when yesterday we could not even sit for one, that's the journey of the warrior."

 

- It could also be called foolish. Unless one is going to find a way through, why submit "oneself" to any more?

 

"I used to have a sign pinned up on the wall that read: 'Only to the extent we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us."

 

- Right, I've found it. As you might know, one of my practices is something I call "dropping the ego off itself" Fine. Next.

 

"A further sign of health is that we do not become undone by fear and trembling, but take it as a message that its time to stop struggling and look directly at what is threatening us."

 

- Right, i've looked. I know what it is. Next?

 

(Quotes from Pema Chodron)

 

- She's one of the authors I find the most irritating. Reckon the nun in me is reacting ;-)?

Hi Kate... Thanks for getting back.

 

I almost wrote a thesis sort of reply to your post, then re-read what was written, and decided to erase it all. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to see that sometimes not saying something is so much more gratifying than trying to show off one's assumptions, pretending that i know you better than you know yourself. You are like my buddha of the day! (Its 7 am here!)

 

Btw, irritation/adverse reactions can be a good thing - gives you something to reflect upon and work with! hehe

[KoolAid900]

oooh. "Thou shalt not worship any but the one god"(or words to that effect) - methinks this would be some kind of indication for a concentration (one-pointed) practice. Anyway, never mind, I keep finding parallels. Just what I do best

But think the bestest of best recent comparisons I read/found/heard (now not sure which but anyway)was between the Tibetan BOTD and the Bible rendition of the Apocaplyse and the last judgement.

 

 

Very cool! That many cultures have guidebooks for navigating life and death (sort of like a course programme in some kind of university)is really pretty cool. That such guidebooks be adopted as "rulebooks" is really not cool. We could maybe stop doing that and look deeper into the guidebooks?

 

Yeah, I'd generally have to agree about the rulebook thing... esp. given my American cultural upbringing. Something kinda amazing & interesting in my experience with Tibetan Buddhism (TB) is that the guidebook and rulebook are unified. In this way it is very comprehensive. It has taken me years to this as I think I could only see the two as mutually exclusive. In reality though, the guidebook wins out (this is taught directly when the student is instructed to rely on the intended/real meaning of the teaching more than the meaning of the words). In the masters of TB I have seen that they take the guidebook to heart so deeply it seems like a rulebook. However, I have seem them unflinchingly break these rules when the situation calls for it.

[KoolAid900]

The tendency is for humans to always look for the longest way around to find the shortest way home.

 

LOL. Knowing this, I pursue the most complex path in order to realize the most simple truth. The shortest way home is through the longest path. This way I will really know that I was always home. If I try to take the shortcut, I might actually think I got home more quickly... and wouldn't that be a shame?

[KoolAid900]

Also... it's ok for you to constantly berate me post after post, but I cannot point out your flaws? Please appreciate it, and take it in, or ignore it. But, don't react. It's your karma to hear such things as you deserve some criticism, just as I do. But, I use it as fuel for the virtue or condition of patience.

 

You are too funny!

 

It fascinates me to watch someone recognize their own projections well enough to use them as a teacher, but still believe them. I have known several people to do this pretty powerfully. It seems like it's due to work and momentum from past lives. It's like all this was learned before and applied well. Now all the understanding is still there, but like it doesn't quite recognize itself in the new environment, or has to adjust or something.

 

Makes for interesting people... potentially dangerous depending on disposition though.

[KoolAid900]

Honestly, I find it difficult to put labels on myself. Labels limit one to a specific belief system and group ideology. Maybe best described as a strange loop that one never really escapes from.

 

Yeah, I was kinda thinking that too. Then I believed that the way out was to get rid of limiting beliefs. This helped, but then I started to feel that I was still in the loop, but just not noticing it! Long story short, I'm still in the loop, seems like more than ever sometimes... but the more I see the loop the less of it there is, despite the fact that it appears bigger.

 

what a weird story... i wonder what it sounds like if u are not me

[KoolAid900]

Never implied that phenomena are all alike. Infinite possibilities.

 

 

ralis

 

As I see it, this is the six realms.

[C T]

LOL. Knowing this, I pursue the most complex path in order to realize the most simple truth. The shortest way home is through the longest path. This way I will really know that I was always home. If I try to take the shortcut, I might actually think I got home more quickly... and wouldn't that be a shame?

Ha! Kool! At least you have come to know you have always been 'home'. It took me too many lifetimes to wake up to this!

[Birch]

Ralis, mon amour, you wouldn't happen to have read the "I'm a strange loop" book, would ya????

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_a_Strange_Loop

 

Yet I don't agree I'm a loop but a resolution. Can a loop become open at one point? Not that I'd know personally. But I guess at least I know I don't know.

[ralis]

Ralis, mon amour, you wouldn't happen to have read the "I'm a strange loop" book, would ya????

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_a_Strange_Loop

 

Yet I don't agree I'm a loop but a resolution. Can a loop become open at one point? Not that I'd know personally. But I guess at least I know I don't know.

 

I read Hofstadter years ago and for a loop to open, I believe self referencing would need to stop. Not certain how that is possible.

 

What is interesting about the strange loop which is really a fractal pattern, is that for each iteration, the next shape (value) is similar to the previous value. Is the quality of being self similar a different self and yet contain the previous values i.e, self.

 

If you are a resolution, does that define some static self that no longer evolves? Is a static condition even possible?

Edited December 17, 2010 by ralis

[KoolAid900]

I read Hofstadter years ago and for a loop to open, I believe self referencing would need to stop. Not certain how that is possible.

 

Some suggestions:

 

in short: genuine interest in the well being of others

 

in longer:

1)honesty and a clearly defined sense of self

• 1 the clearer the sense of self, the more complete the dissolution
  
• 2 try to dissolve a vague self, and you will get a vague result
  

 

2)altruism: heartfelt wish for others to be happy and to remove their sorrow

• 1 this reduces self focus by including others
  
• 2 transforms the habitual tendency of self-preservation to one of generosity/self-sacrifice (this one is key I think)
  
• 3
  

 

3) Apply other minded intent directly to the ego and there is nothing left because ego is only self-interest. Could be done through:

• 1 Mystical meditation
  
• 2 Alchemical transformation
  
• 3 Examination of the validity of self-perceptions which shows their inconsistent/cyclical nature:
  

 

1) the identity is motivated by self-interest,

2) and the motivation of self-interest requires a self that can receive benefit or sustain loss.

 

Obviously the self has to be around if it wants to exist. Self-interest also requires a self if wants to continue to exist. Thus, both self and self-interest share a common goal in the preservation of the self. If there were no self-interest then the self wouldn't mind what happens to the self. So we can say that the self is self-sustaining, it is it's own interest, self-interest. How does the self-interest sustain itself? Through using circular logic to support its own existence. Self-interest actually tries to convince self-interest that self-interest is good thing because without self-interest there would be more self-interest, which is a bad thing. That is, it says without me you would be in really bad shape. The odd thing is that me, you, and really bad shape are all actually self interest pretending to be different things. But self-interest is not something other from ourselves. If we think that the whole cycle continues. Self-interest is also not ourselves, if we think that then the whole cycle continues. Self-interest is best described as confusion... a desire for happiness/goodness turned in on itself to the point where it makes no sense and becomes the obstacle to its own end. Weird fricking thing.

[ralis]

Some suggestions:

 

in short: genuine interest in the well being of others

 

in longer:

1)honesty and a clearly defined sense of self

• 1 the clearer the sense of self, the more complete the dissolution
  
• 2 try to dissolve a vague self, and you will get a vague result
  

 

2)altruism: heartfelt wish for others to be happy and to remove their sorrow

• 1 this reduces self focus by including others
  
• 2 transforms the habitual tendency of self-preservation to one of generosity/self-sacrifice (this one is key I think)
  
• 3
  

 

3) Apply other minded intent directly to the ego and there is nothing left because ego is only self-interest. Could be done through:

• 1 Mystical meditation
  
• 2 Alchemical transformation
  
• 3 Examination of the validity of self-perceptions which shows their inconsistent/cyclical nature:
  

 

1) the identity is motivated by self-interest,

2) and the motivation of self-interest requires a self that can receive benefit or sustain loss.

 

Obviously the self has to be around if it wants to exist. Self-interest also requires a self if wants to continue to exist. Thus, both self and self-interest share a common goal in the preservation of the self. If there were no self-interest then the self wouldn't mind what happens to the self. So we can say that the self is self-sustaining, it is it's own interest, self-interest. How does the self-interest sustain itself? Through using circular logic to support its own existence. Self-interest actually tries to convince self-interest that self-interest is good thing because without self-interest there would be more self-interest, which is a bad thing. That is, it says without me you would be in really bad shape. The odd thing is that me, you, and really bad shape are all actually self interest pretending to be different things. But self-interest is not something other from ourselves. If we think that the whole cycle continues. Self-interest is also not ourselves, if we think that then the whole cycle continues. Self-interest is best described as confusion... a desire for happiness/goodness turned in on itself to the point where it makes no sense and becomes the obstacle to its own end. Weird fricking thing.

 

 

You proved my point!

[Vajrahridaya]

Contemplating dependent origination empties self looping attachment.

[Vajrahridaya]

LOL. Knowing this, I pursue the most complex path in order to realize the most simple truth. The shortest way home is through the longest path. This way I will really know that I was always home. If I try to take the shortcut, I might actually think I got home more quickly... and wouldn't that be a shame?

[Vajrahridaya]

You are too funny!

 

It fascinates me to watch someone recognize their own projections well enough to use them as a teacher, but still believe them. I have known several people to do this pretty powerfully. It seems like it's due to work and momentum from past lives. It's like all this was learned before and applied well. Now all the understanding is still there, but like it doesn't quite recognize itself in the new environment, or has to adjust or something.

 

Makes for interesting people... potentially dangerous depending on disposition though.

 

I have memories of Tibet as a Lama... I don't know what position I held but I was completely absorbed in the practice without the conditions for distraction that delude me here in the USA.

 

I think what you said about not recognizing itself in this new environment has been a huge problem for me. Growing up around bullies and telling them in Elementary school to "think of yourself as the ant that you are abusing, or the other kid that you are bullying." This would turn the bully onto me more times than I care to remember.

 

There were natural tendencies for spontaneous meditation and compassion that was not "normal" in my new environment in chicano land New Mexico or inner city San Francisco.... or inner city NYC for that matter.

 

It's been a hard life. In the book Mipham, this is addressed by the author. Basically he asks, what would happen if a bodhisattva practitioner or tulku took birth in the USA with the right intentions but not the right tools to balance with the environment?

 

I in all humility to try to learn the tools has become more of a victim here in the USA... because I "love too much", or "hear too much." But, my wisdom is not deep enough.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Contemplating dependent origination empties self looping attachment.

 

The experience should reveal a blue bindu/tigle or a cobalt blue pervading light, as well as a open sense of body/brain/mind, filled with grounded and blissful/compassionate sensitivity.

[ralis]

I have memories of Tibet as a Lama... I don't know what position I held but I was completely absorbed in the practice without the conditions for distraction that delude me here in the USA.

 

I think what you said about not recognizing itself in this new environment has been a huge problem for me. Growing up around bullies and telling them in Elementary school to "think of yourself as the ant that you are abusing, or the other kid that you are bullying." This would turn the bully onto me more times than I care to remember.

 

There were natural tendencies for spontaneous meditation and compassion that was not "normal" in my new environment in chicano land New Mexico or inner city San Francisco.... or inner city NYC for that matter.

 

It's been a hard life. In the book Mipham, this is addressed by the author. Basically he asks, what would happen if a bodhisattva practitioner or tulku took birth in the USA with the right intentions but not the right tools to balance with the environment?

 

I in all humility to try to learn the tools has become more of a victim here in the USA... because I "love too much", or "hear too much." But, my wisdom is not deep enough.

 

 

Is your claim of a Lamaist past or any of your other past lives designed to lend credibility to your arguments? This is the reason, why you have trouble with those of us who critique your arguments. Now you have expanded into a Bodhisattva victim status here in the U.S.

 

Why not stop the pretense.

 

It is difficult to take you seriously.

Edited December 18, 2010 by ralis

[adept]

I have memories of Tibet as a Lama...

 

Oh dear.

Your 'followers' will love this.

[三江源]

Oh dear.

Your 'followers' will love this.

do no harm

 

If we haven't been taught to do no harm, we see no harm in doing harm. We cause harm and shrug it off. We cause harm and laugh about it. We cause harm and brag about it.