Water Method vs Vipassana

[Raymond Wolter]

B.K. Frantzis also has two other books, "Relaxing Into Your Being" and "The Great Stillness"

 

 

Sloppy wrote on another thread about the Water method of Frantzis. Anyone knows what exactly is the difference between Vipassana and Water method of BKF?

[Guest paul walter]

Sloppy wrote on another thread about the Water method of Frantzis. Anyone knows what exactly is the difference between Vipassana and Water method of BKF?

 

 

Why versus? No difference except in techniques adopted. Paul

[Raymond Wolter]

Why versus? No difference except in techniques adopted. Paul

Right there is the first difference - of techniques.

[Guest paul walter]

Right there is the first difference - of techniques.

 

 

So you want to know about the difference in techniques? The practices themselves aim for the same end by adopting techniques to achieve such end. You can find the techniques on the web--just write them down and compare them.... Or maybe you want: Vis is Buddhist based, water method is taoist

one accentuates sitting, the other sitting and moving

vis starts breathing as awareness of breath through nostrils, water method as awareness of breath going to dantien.

both aim for the state called "emptiness"/mindfulness

both aim tho stabilise chi/prana

both seek the opening of the heart chakra/mai-lun and uniting it with dantien to produce awareness

both as practised in the "real" world aim to make the practitioner healthier and happier.

Edited July 1, 2010 by paul walter

[Gerard]

There are significant differences between the two:

 

1. Vipassana uses the mind to work on your multidimensional being

2. Taoist uses Qi as main target and mind to dissolve various blockages

 

Vipassana can be practiced without interruption for hours to no end unless there is an inherent problem to start with as long as the method is adopted progressively (a build up process is required before you can practice it to a high level); you wouldn't be able to do that with the Taoist method due to muscular fatigue.

 

Not saying one is better than the other, just they are different methods.

[Guest paul walter]

There are significant differences between the two:

 

1. Vipassana uses the mind to work on your multidimensional being

2. Taoist uses Qi as main target and mind to dissolve various blockages

 

 

 

 

This is the same thing, durkrhod.

[Gerard]

Looks the same but I am afraid it is not.

 

The Taoist method points at various targets and works itself through various stages. In Vipassana you are working your mind in a non stop fashion without focusing on bodily and other sensations. You just observe and acknowledge their impermanent nature.

 

Maybe I haven't expressed myself correctly, sorry if that's the case.

[Raymond Wolter]

Looks the same but I am afraid it is not.

 

The Taoist method points at various targets and works itself through various stages. In Vipassana you are working your mind in a non stop fashion without focusing on bodily and other sensations. You just observe and acknowledge their impermanent nature.

 

Maybe I haven't expressed myself correctly, sorry if that's the case.

 

 

Thank you. Does that mean the results/goals of both practices are different?

[Gerard]

I haven't played with the Taoist method that long to find out, but I did with Vipassana and the experience was...well, you need to experience it yourself

 

Good luck.

 

 

*Note: high level stuff.

[markern]

So you want to know about the difference in techniques? The practices themselves aim for the same end by adopting techniques to achieve such end. You can find the techniques on the web--just write them down and compare them.... Or maybe you want: Vis is Buddhist based, water method is taoist

one accentuates sitting, the other sitting and moving

vis starts breathing as awareness of breath through nostrils, water method as awareness of breath going to dantien.

both aim for the state called "emptiness"/mindfulness

both aim tho stabilise chi/prana

both seek the opening of the heart chakra/mai-lun and uniting it with dantien to produce awareness

both as practised in the "real" world aim to make the practitioner healthier and happier.

 

What if one does Vipassana with awareness at the Dan tien? I feel drawn to use it instead of the nostrils. As far as I understand som etraditions use the nostrils, some use the abdomen. Using the dan tien should be ok to right as the key is just concentration and awareness of sensation?

 

Can you say a bit more about the uniting of the heart and dantien to produce awareness. I thought that sounded interesting.

[C T]

What if one does Vipassana with awareness at the Dan tien? I feel drawn to use it instead of the nostrils. As far as I understand som etraditions use the nostrils, some use the abdomen. Using the dan tien should be ok to right as the key is just concentration and awareness of sensation?

 

Can you say a bit more about the uniting of the heart and dantien to produce awareness. I thought that sounded interesting.

Meditation by bringing awareness to breath is Shamatha. Its also called Calm Abiding. Some call this 'Bringing the mind home'. Even in the buddhist methods awareness can rest in the abdomen, as illustrated in this image of Shakyamuni: http://www.mandalas.com/Agape_Show/images/buddha_medditating_on_red.jpg Notice the hand mudra, where the Buddha rests His palms. Thats drawing awareness from/to the lower abdomen.

 

Vipassana's purpose is to allow the penetration of insight to unfold and stabilise, usually following Shamatha, but not a definitive requirement. Reason being if the mind is too scattered, or easily distracted, it would be almost impossible for insight to arise.

[markern]

Meditation by bringing awareness to breath is Shamatha. Its also called Calm Abiding. Some call this 'Bringing the mind home'. Even in the buddhist methods awareness can rest in the abdomen, as illustrated in this image of Shakyamuni: http://www.mandalas.com/Agape_Show/images/buddha_medditating_on_red.jpg Notice the hand mudra, where the Buddha rests His palms. Thats drawing awareness from/to the lower abdomen.

 

Vipassana's purpose is to allow the penetration of insight to unfold and stabilise, usually following Shamatha, but not a definitive requirement. Reason being if the mind is too scattered, or easily distracted, it would be almost impossible for insight to arise.

 

THanks. I just remembered that in Zen they often keep awareness at the dan tien and that A couple of Thai friends that showed me how they meditate also keep awareness there and they of course do Vipassana

[C T]

I get the feeling there may be a bit of confusion relating to the term Vipassana meditation. As i have mentioned, watching the breath and allowing awareness to follow it, whether it be focussed around the nostrils or the abdomen, is not Vipassana - this is the practice of Shamatha, which calms the mind before formal sitting to allow for insight (Vipassana) to arise.

 

I find it rather strange that in the US the buzzword seem to revolve around Vipassana, when in actual fact it sounds more like Shamatha that most people are referring to (where watching the breath is concerned). For example, walking meditation is definitely grouped under Shamatha practice. As far as i know, traditionally speaking all Vipassana is done sitting.

 

I wonder why this is? Perhaps others might have some input?

 

Here is an article that clearly explains the two methods: http://buddhist-beliefs.suite101.com/article.cfm/buddhist_meditation_and_the_practice_of_shamatha

[markern]

I get the feeling there may be a bit of confusion relating to the term Vipassana meditation. As i have mentioned, watching the breath and allowing awareness to follow it, whether it be focussed around the nostrils or the abdomen, is not Vipassana - this is the practice of Shamatha, which calms the mind before formal sitting to allow for insight (Vipassana) to arise.

 

I find it rather strange that in the US the buzzword seem to revolve around Vipassana, when in actual fact it sounds more like Shamatha that most people are referring to (where watching the breath is concerned). For example, walking meditation is definitely grouped under Shamatha practice. As far as i know, traditionally speaking all Vipassana is done sitting.

 

I wonder why this is? Perhaps others might have some input?

 

Here is an article that clearly explains the two methods: http://buddhist-beliefs.suite101.com/article.cfm/buddhist_meditation_and_the_practice_of_shamatha

 

I am well aware of the difference but it seems to me that the use of the terms have become Vipassana also used for the whole package of shamatha and Vipassana. It is sort of convenient although it creates confusion as well.

[Guest paul walter]

What if one does Vipassana with awareness at the Dan tien? I feel drawn to use it instead of the nostrils. As far as I understand som etraditions use the nostrils, some use the abdomen. Using the dan tien should be ok to right as the key is just concentration and awareness of sensation?

 

Can you say a bit more about the uniting of the heart and dantien to produce awareness. I thought that sounded interesting.

 

 

You can do that-as long as you're "empty" and know where the (lower I take it...) dantien is.

 

Well the "secret" of the uniting is to shut the mind off...be quiet...be still.... forget everything you've ever done, been, learned--it will happen by itself over time. Don't have to sit in Lotus or anything. This is the starting point for all so-called practices if you want real and positive results (and if you're "lucky" it will be the end point as well). Sounds easy/simple but...welcome to hell . Paul

[forestofclarity]

There are also different methods of vipassana. Here are some I have learned:

 

1. Sweeping the body with awareness

2. Noting everything that arises

3. Seeing/noting arisings as impermanent, not-self, or non satistfying

4. Seeing everything as one of the 5 skhandas and how they relate

 

Vipassana, as I was taught, comes from the root word "vi-" which is to split (as in vijnana, splitting knowing or discriminating consciousness). The thread that connects the practices is in splitting things up. This splitting allows one to step back and view things arisings with equanimity rather than continuously identifying with them.

 

I find it rather strange that in the US the buzzword seem to revolve around Vipassana, when in actual fact it sounds more like Shamatha that most people are referring to (where watching the breath is concerned). For example, walking meditation is definitely grouped under Shamatha practice. As far as i know, traditionally speaking all Vipassana is done sitting.

[Raymond Wolter]

I have done several retreats with Goenkaji and also with Ajahn Brahm schools of Vipassana. Personally feel greater affinity towards body sweeping than noting. Lately have been exploring Taoist meditation and find that using focus on lower dantien during anapana makes me feel more grounded and has helped with some physical issues like migraine, allergy etc. As I read Bruce's books on Water method, I sometimes wonder if he is simply teaching Vipassana but with modifications such as breathing into the organ etc.? In one of the two volumes, it is also said that his teacher was Buddhist. But he was Chinese and I don't know if the Burmese/Thai styles of Vipassana are used/known in China? Frankly, I don't clearly understand Bruce's technique. Still trying to figure out what he explains in the book.

[markern]

I have done several retreats with Goenkaji and also with Ajahn Brahm schools of Vipassana. Personally feel greater affinity towards body sweeping than noting. Lately have been exploring Taoist meditation and find that using focus on lower dantien during anapana makes me feel more grounded and has helped with some physical issues like migraine, allergy etc. As I read Bruce's books on Water method, I sometimes wonder if he is simply teaching Vipassana but with modifications such as breathing into the organ etc.? In one of the two volumes, it is also said that his teacher was Buddhist. But he was Chinese and I don't know if the Burmese/Thai styles of Vipassana are used/known in China? Frankly, I don't clearly understand Bruce's technique. Still trying to figure out what he explains in the book.

 

 

But what would be the Vipassana/insight element to the water method? To me it sounds like form of soft energywork and a concentrative technique not insight meditation but I don`t know much more about it then I have read here?

[Sahaj Nath]

As I read Bruce's books on Water method, I sometimes wonder if he is simply teaching Vipassana but with modifications such as breathing into the organ etc.? In one of the two volumes, it is also said that his teacher was Buddhist. But he was Chinese and I don't know if the Burmese/Thai styles of Vipassana are used/known in China? Frankly, I don't clearly understand Bruce's technique. Still trying to figure out what he explains in the book.

 

awareness is not the domain of any one particular school or system. it makes sense that methods from different schools would overlap, seeing as the sages of those schools are exploring the same territory, reaching the same insights, and therefore fashioning very similar vehicles.

 

Bruce's teacher was not a Buddhist. not sure how you're reaching that conclusion, given that inner dissolving is the TAOIST water method taught to him by Master Liu Hung Chieh, a Taoist Immortal.

 

if you throw out the books and engage the practices themselves, it's easy to see that they are basically the same practice. that's what i think, anyway.

 

 

But what would be the Vipassana/insight element to the water method? To me it sounds like form of soft energywork and a concentrative technique not insight meditation but I don`t know much more about it then I have read here?

 

i don't know what you mean. insight arises from the practice the same way that it does in vipassana. you're not "doing" energy work; you're simply aware of the energy patterns that arise. nothing is forced. blockages are able to dissolve naturally by simply being aware of the various phenomena arising within the spaciousness of your being. insight arises from the continual process of dis-identification with finite things.

 

you might want to pick up a book or two on vipassana. a book will also break down the difference between the concentration practice of anapana and the actual meditative technique.

 

was this at all helpful, or are you asking something else?

[Raymond Wolter]

Thanks Hundun..

 

Sloppy or others,

 

I have been reading Vol 1 of the Water Method and I don't completely "get it". Would you think the Tao of Letting Go audio program will be helpful in better understanding the method?

[forestofclarity]

Raymond,

 

My feeling is that you (like most of us) won't fully "get it" until you can find a teacher who can answer your personal questions. I would look up a BK Frantzis teacher and see if you can work with them.

 

Thanks Hundun..

 

Sloppy or others,

 

I have been reading Vol 1 of the Water Method and I don't completely "get it". Would you think the Tao of Letting Go audio program will be helpful in better understanding the method?

[寒月 Hanyue]

[Sahaj Nath]

[Sloppy Zhang]

Thanks Hundun..

 

Sloppy or others,

 

I have been reading Vol 1 of the Water Method and I don't completely "get it". Would you think the Tao of Letting Go audio program will be helpful in better understanding the method?

 

Could you talk a little bit more about what you don't get?

 

**disclaimer** I've only learned the water method through books and have never had an in person teacher that's affiliated with any of Bruce's schools/methods***

 

I don't know how much help I can be. Just reading the book, the method and philosophy really clicked well with me, so I didn't seek much supplemental material to explain.

 

Basically, in general, you have 8 different "bodies". Starting with the physical, they get more and more subtle, as well as larger in terms of how much space they take up as well as being higher vibrations. Most people have blockages in the various layers of these bodies which impede energy flow, which therefore impedes your ability for your awareness to perceive them.

 

Blockages manifest in a lot of ways- as feelings of tension, as strength (a tense strength, like if you flex your muscles really hard and go "grrrrr" rather than, say, a relaxed and explosive strength of a sprinter or swimmer that's crouched and waiting for the gun), or if you can't feel. If you can't feel an area at all, it means that your awareness can't perceive it, and that's not really a good thing- you want to reach a point where your awareness can be constantly pervading everything. Tension means energy can't flow freely.

 

So when Bruce says you go somewhere with an agenda, I think he means that when you examine a blockage, you aren't just looking at it and going, "hmm, a blockage, it's preventing energy flow and constricting my awareness!" Instead you go in and say, "hmm, I have a blockage here, my energy isn't flowing and my consciousness is constricted.... let's get rid of this blockage so I can be healthy!" Then, you use the outer/inner dissolving method to get rid of it. He says to use the outer dissolving method for the physical and (I think) qi body, but once you hit the emotional body, you can start using the inner dissolving method, though you can still use the outer dissolving method, and he says that at a certain point the two can happen simultaneously.

 

(I think here I should note that I haven't really used the inner dissolving method, as I haven't reached a solid point working with "the mindstream" which he talks about in one of the later chapter of "Relaxing Into Your Being" and reading the sections on inner dissolving in "The Great Stillness" he always talks about the mindstream, so I never really tried because I figured I couldn't do it right anyway until I get the mindstream thing down)

 

But that's not to say that "observing" is not important. Because it is important. But part of observing is following the blockage and trying to get out as much of it as possible. So, you might dissolve it and feel you've dissolved it all. But as you feel further down, you feel more of a blockage. So you gotta dissolve that. He describes it as a downward spiraling process. Each step you get deeper and deeper and deeper until you reach nothingness. All the while you are releasing bound energy. Also, as you release a blockage, you could start feeling various bodily sensations, energy sensations, emotions, thoughts, etc etc. These are considered to be experiences which are tied up with the blockage, so as you release the blockage, you release these thoughts.

 

From personal experience, sometimes I'll get the most random thoughts and memories pop into my mind. Completely off the wall things that I would never think about, and have no reason to think about as they had no prompt other than working through some certain problem. Old injuries, old incidents, old memories, emotions, regrets, thoughts, etc etc all pop up even though your only goal might be to release the body. From Bruce's methods point of view, experiences and energy can be stored in the body, so as you release the body you help to release these.

 

And as you release the physical body you can move into the more subtle energy body. And from there you can get even more subtle, as you piece through the 8 energy bodies until you finally reach the Tao. But I also think that at certain points you can feel large blockages in various bodily levels even if they are "out of order". And that's kind of my one grievance with the way Bruce's books progress- he's really REALLY big on never ever progressing to a later step until you've mastered the step you are on now, which is good in normal cases, but sometimes you run into a problem which just can't be solved with the level you are on. But, when that happens, in my experience, just apply the main principles:

 

To be supple and flexible is to be a student of life, to be rigid and hard is to be a student of death (paraphrased from Dao De Jing I believe). When you have a problem, take some time to observe it. How is it making you feel? What thoughts are brought to mind? How is it affecting your energy? How is it affecting your body?

 

As you identify them, dissolve them, let the energy flow freely, and you'll be fine.

 

For me it got to the point where as soon as I started worrying too much, I just automatically let it go. Same thing with emotional/physical stress from day to day life. I start to get frustrated or whatever, and I instantly think, "whoa, tension, dissolve, dissolve....." and I'm good. Basically, dissolving is the keyword for Bruce's method (at least as I understand it through the books). So many things happen on their own if you just get out of the way and let them happen. I used to have really bad posture, but as soon as I started dissolving key muscles, my spine just suddenly moved into place and I had perfect posture. It was really surprising. If you just get out of the way, your body corrects itself.

 

i practiced inner dissolving years before i had ever even heard of vipassana. to me, vipassana is kind of like the logical conclusion of inner dissolving practice. eventually, that's where you end up. *shrugs*

 

Yes, I've surprisingly come across a number of texts and instructions that describe various practices that I've discovered naturally just by practicing the dissolving process.

 

you've gotta remember he's not addressing an open forum as a free agent, so to speak.

 

I think this is very important. Just taking a look at his website and some of the courses/seminars he offers, it's very clear that he's marketing a certain package. Even reading his books he sometimes goes overboard in creating some package that he is trying to toss to people. And to some extent, it's understandable- someone who doesn't know what Daoism is at all sees two or three methods that are separated only by a few nuanced points, and it's easy to lump them all together as the same. So to a certain extent, he's gotta swing far in one direction just to get people to budge a few inches.

 

There was an article the Michael Winn wrote a little while ago about "fire" and "water" in Daoism, and he took some issue with some of the language that Bruce was using, noting that in order to "dissolve" in the first place, you need the "fire" that is brought by awareness. Bruce's response (paraphrased, of course) was that they do it in a watery way.

 

In general though:

 

i would encourage others to explore for themselves, and NOT set up unnecessary walls, UNLESS your intent is to follow a specific lineage system.

 

This is what I would keep in mind.

 

Keep dissolving. Keep letting go. If it feels like you can let it go- do it.

[Guest paul walter]

Thanks Hundun..

 

Sloppy or others,

 

I have been reading Vol 1 of the Water Method and I don't completely "get it". Would you think the Tao of Letting Go audio program will be helpful in better understanding the method?

 

 

There's nothing to "get"--just "do it" as they say. Forget about the teacher--that's why he wrote the book. Some things we really do have to do for ourselves unfortunately. Hint: the secret is to do it with no effort.......Paul