retribution

[island]

What is the Taoist position on Moral retribution???

 

It appears paradoxical to me?

[Tao99]

Edited July 9, 2010 by Tao99

[Marblehead]

What is the Taoist position on Moral retribution???

 

It appears paradoxical to me?

 

I would like to speak to your questions but I do not understand them well enough to speak. Can you supply a little more info and perhaps an example?

 

 

Yeah Tao99. That was cute. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

What is the Taoist position on Moral retribution???

 

It appears paradoxical to me?

 

 

"Moral" is but 1/4.

"correct" and "moral" are not always synonymous.

 

"Correct" and "moral" are half.

 

"beneficial" and "harmless" are the other half.

 

 

No one of these parts is wholly encompassed in any other part, nor wholly encompasses all three remaining parts.

 

 

They are segments in a cycle of breathing, and must be in constant motion, interaction, application, and moderation in order to be of any merit or benefit.

 

 

 

The sacred cycle of 4 is so far universally binding, reinterpreted in every level and frequency of life.

 

 

 

 

Retribution is a yin-yin. it is "wrath".

 

It constitutes it's potential to the negative.

 

Resolution is a balance. bonding with both sides.

 

Cooperation is yang-yang. it constitutes it's potential to the positive.

 

the counter-weight to resolution is ignorance, which is nullifying, rather than bonding.

 

 

No one part is more or less good or bad or important or pointless than any other part of the whole.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Stoner Shadow Wolf

[island]

Taoist Gods exacted strict punishment for sinners and the Ten courts of the Underworld exacted retribution for human misdeed for the karmic guilt accumulated during his or her lifetime. This concern with moral retribution has shaped Taoism....So from a personal standpoint can one exact moral retribution? or is this solely the Domain of theTaoist Gods??

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Taoist Gods exacted strict punishment for sinners and the Ten courts of the Underworld exacted retribution for human misdeed for the karmic guilt accumulated during his or her lifetime. This concern with moral retribution has shaped Taoism....So from a personal standpoint can one exact moral retribution? or is this solely the Domain of theTaoist Gods??

 

I think you're talking about the later developed religious Daoism? Personally I've never been able to reconcile religious Daoism with it's roots, it was somewhat of an effort to make it more popular/mainstream.

 

In a bit Matbleheads gonna' mention 'wu wei'.

[island]

Yes, i'm referring to religious Toaism.

 

'In a bit Marbleheads gonna' mention 'wu wei'.' -lol

[island]

Tao 99 - if i have exacted retribution will i be punished for my sin?

[Marblehead]

Taoist Gods exacted strict punishment for sinners and the Ten courts of the Underworld exacted retribution for human misdeed for the karmic guilt accumulated during his or her lifetime. This concern with moral retribution has shaped Taoism....So from a personal standpoint can one exact moral retribution? or is this solely the Domain of theTaoist Gods??

 

Okay. Now I understand where you are.

 

Regretfully I cannot speak to the issue.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

In a bit Matbleheads gonna' mention 'wu wei'.

 

Hehehe. I have stepped on enough toes around here already.

 

I think it would not be in anyone's best interest for me to comment.

 

Yes, 'wu wei' is a wonderful concept. To do what needs be done. This would include the concept of retribution because Tao is all-embracing.

 

Do we need wait for the gods (what gods, hehehe?) to deal out retribution or can it be done earlier?

 

I won't answer my own question.

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Yes, 'wu wei' is a wonderful concept. To do what needs be done. This would include the concept of retribution because Tao is all-embracing.

 

 

Awwww, that's not wu wei though, wu wei means to not do what you think needs to be done, to simply leave it. 'non-action', retribution is a human concept, first there must be a conceived need for retribution, but true Daoism does not hold to right or wrong, so therefore there can be no retribution. At least a human has no right to retribution.... I would say a 'God' too.

 

I hold to wu-wei as a concept that teaches all forms of retribution, as in an action, is not of the Dao. Let the Dao do what it will do, and keep out of it. Surely that's wu-wei or I've misunderstood you before.

[Marblehead]

Awwww, that's not wu wei though, wu wei means to not do what you think needs to be done, to simply leave it. 'non-action', retribution is a human concept, first there must be a conceived need for retribution, but true Daoism does not hold to right or wrong, so therefore there can be no retribution. At least a human has no right to retribution.... I would say a 'God' too.

 

I hold to wu-wei as a concept that teaches all forms of retribution, as in an action, is not of the Dao. Let the Dao do what it will do, and keep out of it. Surely that's wu-wei or I've misunderstood you before.

 

No, you did not misunderstand me before. I just let the monkey loose in the barrel to see what would happen.

 

You are correct, IMO. Retribution is an act in response to an act that is already history. We failed to let go of whatever it is that drove us to seek retribution.

 

Stars don't go supernova just to get even with the universe. We should not either. (But we can go supernova if the conditions call for such in order to prevent an act from being committed.)

 

The old "eye for an eye" has never worked and it can never work because the other side always has to get even.

 

The alpha wolf does not 'get even' with the younger wolf for trying to get a little. The alpha wolf simply chases off the younger wolf away from the pack.

 

Anyhow, preventive maintenance is always less expensive and easier than repair/replacement.

 

But let's not confuse wu wei with passivity. That would be an error. Taoists are passive when conditions allow for that state.

 

Peace & Love!

[thelerner]

No, you did not misunderstand me before. I just let the monkey loose in the barrel to see what would happen.

 

You are correct, IMO. Retribution is an act in response to an act that is already history. We failed to let go of whatever it is that drove us to seek retribution.

 

Stars don't go supernova just to get even with the universe. We should not either. (But we can go supernova if the conditions call for such in order to prevent an act from being committed.)

 

The old "eye for an eye" has never worked and it can never work because the other side always has to get even.

 

The alpha wolf does not 'get even' with the younger wolf for trying to get a little. The alpha wolf simply chases off the younger wolf away from the pack.

 

Anyhow, preventive maintenance is always less expensive and easier than repair/replacement.

 

But let's not confuse wu wei with passivity. That would be an error. Taoists are passive when conditions allow for that state.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Great explanation. Humans are full of rationalizations. When I want to understand Tao I look to nature.

[island]

How Animals take revenge on Humans: http://exdesi.com/showthread.php?51973-XIR-How-animals-take-revenge-to-humans...-must-see..

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

No, you did not misunderstand me before. I just let the monkey loose in the barrel to see what would happen.

 

 

haha...nicely played Marblehead, very nice, you can teach us youngsters the art of applied strategy yet. They say 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks', but I say 'an old dog doesn't need new tricks as he has survived just fine so far with the tricks he has.'(not that I'm saying your a dog by the way, but you get my gist I'm sure).

 

 

You are correct, IMO. Retribution is an act in response to an act that is already history. We failed to let go of whatever it is that drove us to seek retribution.

 

Stars don't go supernova just to get even with the universe. We should not either. (But we can go supernova if the conditions call for such in order to prevent an act from being committed.)

 

The old "eye for an eye" has never worked and it can never work because the other side always has to get even.

 

The alpha wolf does not 'get even' with the younger wolf for trying to get a little. The alpha wolf simply chases off the younger wolf away from the pack.

 

Anyhow, preventive maintenance is always less expensive and easier than repair/replacement.

 

 

True true. That's the answer I was expecting.... but you threw that banana in the barrel and I just had to go for it.... as you knew I would!

 

 

But let's not confuse wu wei with passivity. That would be an error. Taoists are passive when conditions allow for that state.

 

Peace & Love!

 

very good final point. An important one too. I'm gonna go find another banana!

[Marblehead]

haha...nicely played Marblehead, very nice, you can teach us youngsters the art of applied strategy yet. They say 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks', but I say 'an old dog doesn't need new tricks as he has survived just fine so far with the tricks he has.'(not that I'm saying your a dog by the way, but you get my gist I'm sure).

 

I don't mind recognizing that I am an old dog. Getting old indicates that you have lived your life fairly well. (And haven't pissed anyone off so badly that they killed you.)

 

True true. That's the answer I was expecting.... but you threw that banana in the barrel and I just had to go for it.... as you knew I would!

 

Yeah, serious philosophy gets boring sometimes. We need to keep humor in our life. Laughter is excellent medicine for many diseases.

 

very good final point. An important one too. I'm gonna go find another banana!

 

Just dispose of the peel properly. We don't want you to be slipping and falling and hurting yourself.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed the way I handled that.

 

Peace & Love!

[3L3VAT3]

is there never a point where the 'sin' is bad/harmful enough to merit punishment?

I guess in a taoist sense as well as in general...

So in Taoist states there were no laws (I don't know if this question is valid, wasn't it the confusionists who were more into making laws/dogma and such...taoist were chillin in the woods not necessaritly in power, right?), it was just 'live and let live'?

[Marblehead]

is there never a point where the 'sin' is bad/harmful enough to merit punishment?

I guess in a taoist sense as well as in general...

So in Taoist states there were no laws (I don't know if this question is valid, wasn't it the confusionists who were more into making laws/dogma and such...taoist were chillin in the woods not necessaritly in power, right?), it was just 'live and let live'?

 

Fair questions.

 

Lao Tzu lived during the Warring States period of China. There were many laws on the books at that time. China was still not united so there were laws that differed from state to state. Lao Tzu and the Taoists before him followed the laws just like all the other people.

 

Punishment for breaking the law back then were very severe. Violations were punished. Most people who followed Taoist philosophy lived very normal lives. It was only the few who went off into the forests and mountains to live a solitary life.

 

But Lao Tzu (or maybe it was Chuang Tzu) said somewhere that the sage did not judge nor did he/she demand punishment. This was up to society to do - not the individual. Even back then there were courts that heard complaints from individuals regarding wrong-doing by others and these others were held accountable.

 

Regarding myself, not even pretending that I am even close to sagehood, feel it is my right to defend myself. Any attack will be compensated for. This is consistent with Taoist Philosophy, IMO. Even the sage sometimes had to serve in the military during wartime and he/she killed when necessary but they took no pleasure in such acts.

 

Again I stress that Taoism is not a philosophy of passivity. It is a philosophy of living a lifestyle so that we never have to be anything but passive whenever possible.

 

But then too again I stress that individual retribution is not good because it creates a chain of events that can become never-ending. That is why there are laws and courts.

 

Afterall, if someone does evil to us and we, in turn, do the same evil to them does that not put us in the same category of people as the original offender is in?

 

Peace & Love!

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Hehehe. I have stepped on enough toes around here already.

 

I think it would not be in anyone's best interest for me to comment.

 

Yes, 'wu wei' is a wonderful concept. To do what needs be done. This would include the concept of retribution because Tao is all-embracing.

 

Do we need wait for the gods (what gods, hehehe?) to deal out retribution or can it be done earlier?

 

I won't answer my own question.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

 

 

We need only be harmless.

 

To be helpful is not always to anyone's benefit, so to act without the prior request of your action, you are the sole responsible soul for the outcomes of your actions, which may have never been desirable to anyone but your ego's perceived notion of necessity.

 

 

Do words serve to bridge communication, or dig a confusing chasm?

[island]

'Regarding myself, not even pretending that I am even close to sagehood, feel it is my right to defend myself. Any attack will be compensated for. This is consistent with Taoist Philosophy, IMO.'

 

I concur!

[Spectrum]

'Regarding myself, not even pretending that I am even close to sagehood, feel it is my right to defend myself. Any attack will be compensated for. This is consistent with Taoist Philosophy, IMO.'

 

I concur!

 

a scientific approach to flipping a coin onto it's spinning edge.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Spectrum

[Spectrum]

To see your true nature in each shot is the Great Way of Peace. This is all you need.

 

Your grip should be like autum leaves blown in a storm.

 

Manifest great deeds by breaking the rules.

 

Masters do not rely on subterfuge.

[Martial Development]

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Dao De Jing 74:

 

The people are not frightened of death. What then is the use of trying to intimidate them with the death-penalty?

 

And even supposing people were generally frightened of death and did not regard it as an everyday thing, which of us would dare to seize them and slay them?

 

There is the Lord of Slaughter always ready for this task, and to do it in his stead is like thrusting oneself into the master-carpenter's place and doing his chopping for him. Now “he who tries to do the master-carpenter's chopping for him is lucky if he does not cut his own hand.”

 

 

Beautiful!

Edited July 4, 2010 by Stoner Shadow Wolf

[island]

Spectrum -

 

'To see your true nature in each shot is the Great Way of Peace. This is all you need.

 

Your grip should be like autum leaves blown in a storm.

 

Manifest great deeds by breaking the rules.

 

Masters do not rely on subterfuge.'

 

Masters don't.

Edited July 4, 2010 by island