On Real Meditation

[voidisyinyang]

I was hoping you could share your experience with me on the following:

 

- When did you learn to distinguish between your True and False Dan Tian?

 

- Did you lead a great amount of energy from the True DT up the Chong Mai to nourish the brain and open the third eye or can you open the third eye through Small Circulation/MCO only?

 

Yang Jwing Ming says, you cannot do it by using MCO with the False Dan tien only, that u have to fill the Real DT and move it up the Chong Mai. Is this because, the water in the belly has to meet the heart fire first and then when those combine (shen) move up to the head to turn to light/shen? - Is it because of that JING - CHI - SHEN route of evolution that he says it can only be done through the chong mai?

 

Can the JING - QI - SHEN evolution happen solely through the MCO?

 

How is it that some schools start working directly on the upper cauldron and open the third eye, skipping the heart and ldt?

 

I am confused...

Please help me out with what you know

 

You can post it in a thread as it might help others if you find the time to reply.

 

 

Effilang I recommend the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" translated by Charles Luk for the details on how the small universe opens up the central channel.

 

The question you ask is a key question -- as Master Nan, Huai-chin and Bill Bodri emphasize -- what happens is that as the central channel opens for true kundalini then the practitioner falls back into worldliness.

 

This is because the esoteric yoga visualization practices of the small universe and other tantra exercises do not rely on the emptiness as the foundation for the practice. So to continue into the advanced stages of the practice of the small universe visualization it's important to have a master who is supervising the guidance of the energy.

 

Otherwise the emptiness remains the foundation and only true guide for the practice -- or as a left-brain focus it's the source of the I-thought that is listened to and the I-thought is emptied out as a Koan. So this is also called the "cessation and contemplation" practice in Buddhism.

 

As for the "true" lower tan tien versus the false -- Master Nan, Huai-chin and Bodri also discuss this problem -- with the "false" being just the "wind" chi as the skanda of sensations. Master Yan Xin also states to not rely on your feelings in the meditation -- same thing.

 

So in true meditation you actually have to first reach nirvikalpa samadhi -- as Vivekananda also emphasizes. Nirvikalpa samadhi, called the Emptiness in Taoism, is actually an advanced stage of meditation. At this stage it's like the body is in deep sleep -- because you don't feel it -- but, on the contrary, it's because the body is so filled up with electromagnetic chi energy that all the channels are open.

 

At this stage you are doing astral travel but at the same time it's not "you" doing the astral travel since it's the emptiness as pure consciousness which guides the astral travel. The full lotus is considered the best way to keep this advanced stage of practice rooted so that there is a continual cycling of the energy -- a recharging of the electrochemical jing energy from external sources into the internal and an external transmission of the chi and shen energy for doing healing and spirit transformation.

 

So the body is an empty vortex vessel for alchemical transformation -- like a tornado or a galaxy. The real energy masters though are able to use their left-brain intention or yi (as Yang Jwing Ming emphasizes) to store the chi and shen in the lower tan tien. As Bodri and Nan state it actually takes a great amount of stored up jing to create the chi and then enough stored up chi to create the shen.

 

So real meditation is only when enough chi is stored in the lower tan tien to create enough shen for astral travel. There is also a less intense form of third eye energy called the "astral tube" which is the yin spirit body but not as developed. The more the yin spirit body is stored up and developed then a yang physical body can be created -- from the increased jing energy that is converted from the shen. So that's why in alchemy it's stated that it begins and ends with jing energy.

 

I was just starting to access real meditation but before that happens a person also gets the spiritual powers of telekinesis, telepathy, precognition and healing energy. So since I was not in an isolated area and since I was taught healing then I used those powers. But when you use the powers it creates more energy imbalance which then has to be re-purified and built up again to further increase the powers. Also the energy at this stage is dangerous unless supervised by an energy master. So Chunyi Lin said that it's important not to get too overexcited (the heart energy gets very strong) or too afraid (the kidney energy gets very strong). He said at that advanced stage I should have called him on the phone and also at that advanced stage a person wants to be practicing out in Nature where the energy is more pure. As Master Ni, Hua-ching states "ghost pollution" is a real issue in the city.

 

So you can also see ghosts at that stage in the practice when you've increased your chi enough to create shen. The shen is a spacetime vortex itself -- the biophoton or laser-love energy is quantum while spacetime is gravity and these two are opposites with spacetime as the period of the quantum frequency -- and the "phase" is the yi or intention that shifts the two together.

 

Chunyi Lin says that the book "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot is an accurate description of what it's like for an energy master -- so that, again, with the focus on emptiness which is FORMLESS, then external and internal reality are interwoven as a holograph.

 

Yeah so the heart chakra is the central pivot as the SOUL energy which combines the external and internal reality with the lower tan tien as internal reality and the upper tan tien as external reality. The OHM from the heart chakra SINGS US into existence -- it's called "OMkara"

 

http://srijagannatha.com/omkara.html

 

That's the level of the "rainbow body" -- the Level 4 meditation in http://springforestqigong.com -- I also accessed this using the ayahuasca with the full lotus practice.

 

So anyway for me what happened is that Chunyi Lin then transmitted energy to my third eye before my energy channels had closed up from my own training based on the "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" book. After Chunyi Lin touched my forehead then the center of my brain was permanently magnetized with bliss.

 

Now I can "flex" my pineal gland but that is still relying on the vagus nerve channels -- the "ida" and "pingala" -- the jing energy creates heat from the electrochemical energy and the left brain first is opened up through the internal orgasmic climaxes. So the blockages clear out and the left brain fills with chi energy.

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin and Bodri state this is why Buddha taught that the big left toe is important to focus on. As the chi channels first open then you feel the energy point on the big left toe!! haha.

 

Anyway then the right brain chi opens up and then after that the central channel starts to open up. So then the first level of samadhi of bliss is achieved where the heart chakra opens up and the heart chakra then opens up the third eye. After that central channel starts to open up then there is more of a holographic interaction between external and internal reality -- so that being awake is also like a dream and dreams then become precognitive and while being awake there is the external transmissions through the pineal gland.

 

Transmissions while awake for me are mainly from the jing energy which is the etheric body while the astral body is the chi and shen. So a "chi" transmission is a combination of jing, chi and shen and the more advanced the energy level the more the transmission is shen energy which then finally becomes jing again as another physical body.

 

At night if you have flying dreams, as Nan and Bodri state, that means the chi energy is built up in the brain -- from having converted it from the jing energy. While dreams that are precognitive are from the astral body as the yin energy -- which means there's been conversion of chi into shen.

 

So the energy is always transforming from the emptiness which is always-already -- we exist within the emptiness -- which is the eternal transformation, creation and destruction of matter from light out of spacetime transformation. The process is impersonal but since it happens through the heart chakra then the love emotion with also the compassion of heart break has to become more and more stronger as the energy increases.

 

What happens is that the lung energy as sadness turns to courage and then to compassion with the heart as love -- as the breathing slows down and as the chi increases the body converts to breathing through the chi energy. So the centers of the hands and feet pulsate with chi energy and the top of the head pulsates with chi energy as well as the perineum. At that point is when the "cessation of achievement" arrives -- which is the natural fasting as energy feasting -- so in the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" this is described in detail. You can convert the chi back into water through electrolysis and also create nutrients through the chi as well -- but converting the jing into chi is dangerous again, as if your jing energy gets taken away by others then it can be very damaging. This is when the energy is directly dealing with the shen realm of spirits and you're doing spirit exorcism of others -- and since modern people are possessed by spirits this is dangerous. So Chunyi Lin does spirit exorcism of places and people as well.

 

As the process continues the chi, if successfully stored in the lower tan tien, is converted more and more into shen energy for opening up the third eye.

 

So the more you can store the chi to create shen the more you can open up the third eye -- and if this process is stabilized then the third eye is "fully opened." But this stage of fully opening the third eye is very very rare yet after it is achieved then real shen-based astral travel can be conducted for real long distance healing. As Jim Nance states when he does long distance energy healing -- he's really THERE. The shen vision state is MORE REAL than being "awake." More vivid, more lucid -- direct perception, etc.

 

Also the shen transmission through the third eye feels like a laser when it's done to you and then you see light and experience amazing bliss as real love.

 

Still the love energy as the heart chakra remains the pivot as the soul energy -- as Chunyi Lin says the love energy is always there even if we are not aware of it.

Edited July 6, 2010 by drewhempel

[effilang]

My thanks you have for sharing your time. Meditate on this i will : )

Edited July 6, 2010 by effilang

[fizix]

epic post, should be stickied. Don't miss out on these gems, folks. Although I am on a different path of training than that described in Charles Luk's fantastic book or Spring Forest qi gong, I can verify all of this information as accurate and well articulated. The top of the mountain is generally the same, regardless of the path one takes. One should carefully read and research Drew's descriptions; skeptical? Put in the flight time and see for yourself, skeptics generally don't invest much effort into the other side of their skepticism, oh confirmation bias what a great thing. I can tell you, personally, other than it being a straight, awesome mind f*** the first time you accidentally tap into the energy, flexing the pineal is useful in more ways than one =)

Edited July 6, 2010 by fizix

[C T]

What you have described is, according to the secret teachings, at best conceptual meditation. One is still caught in 'doing' something to get some result. This is only skimming the surface. Beneath all this, the 'real' begins when no meditator is left, there is no one doing any of this. There is only the meditation meditating itself. All realizations subside. All labels such as you have pointed out, like 'awake', 'shen' etc simply falls away. These things only serve as means to arrive at the state of statelessness, the nondescript, where even the observer, the witness, disappears.

 

Some call this formless meditation, or the pathless path.

 

I think you ought to re-establish what you have termed 'Real Meditation'. Not that what you have said is false, but sometimes the other face of 'real' need not mean there is any falsity - only that it can mislead some to think that this is all there is to the actual state. Its not.

 

Its good to know these things you have prescribed, to enhance one's connection to the actual 'real' stuff... but its only again a finger pointing to something.

[Raymond Wolter]

What you have described is, according to the secret teachings, at best conceptual meditation. One is still caught in 'doing' something to get some result. This is only skimming the surface. Beneath all this, the 'real' begins when no meditator is left, there is no one doing any of this. There is only the meditation meditating itself. All realizations subside. All labels such as you have pointed out, like 'awake', 'shen' etc simply falls away. These things only serve as means to arrive at the state of statelessness, the nondescript, where even the observer, the witness, disappears.

 

Some call this formless meditation, or the pathless path.

 

I think you ought to re-establish what you have termed 'Real Meditation'. Not that what you have said is false, but sometimes the other face of 'real' need not mean there is any falsity - only that it can mislead some to think that this is all there is to the actual state. Its not.

 

Its good to know these things you have prescribed, to enhance one's connection to the actual 'real' stuff... but its only again a finger pointing to something.

 

I don't get your point? What are you trying to say? Your problem is with the usage of the word 'real'? I still didn't hear dependent origination and anatta thrown in yet or sutras quoted, or I missed them? I can sense it coming and this thread growing into another...well never mind

 

Drew, good info and practical info. It helps to read something practical at times and not get jumbled with no-duality and speak from a plane which is the result of practice rather than from the plane of practice aka duality which is where most of us are at. Talking too much of the what happens after the non-dual state is accomplished distracts one from practice and talking of it is at best a fluff of words. Appreciate such useful posts.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Raymond Wolter

[Brian]

...

[C T]

I don't get your point? What are you trying to say? Your problem is with the usage of the word 'real'? I still didn't hear dependent origination and anatta thrown in yet or sutras quoted, or I missed them? I can sense it coming and this thread growing into another...well never mind

 

Hey Raymond - Do i detect some sort of goading happening here?

 

You wont hear what you expected to hear because that which you expected is merely your own projections, an extension of your aversions. If you can lay them down, your journey will be much lighter. Look into these, instead of expecting some buddhist preaching each time you read a post put up by what you project as from a buddhist(s).

 

My experiences evolves around the teachings and methods taught by the Sugata, but that in no way implies that there is any need to use these as a shield, or a crutch. I know when to lay down the methods when the time is right, in order they do not become hindrances. Before someone has attained to their particular non-conceptual realizations, it is wise and understandable to grasp tightly to concepts, and keep looking at the finger with enraptured attention. Having done this long enough, one grows tired after a while, and the clinging will dissolve on its own. The key phrase is to keep to one-pointed conceptualization, or total conceptual mindfulness, or else the letting go will not happen. Thats why it is said that to decide on One point is so vital. Find your One Point, and work on that. Then transcend. The common mistake most make is to have many points, which ultimately leads to immense distraction. Feeling lost, and not even realizing where one is lost is detrimental. When focussed on One Point, when one loses the way, its not so hard to retrace the steps.

 

If you do not goad, usually i will not speak of buddhism. If you access all my posts (which you wont i am sure) you will see that i hardly talk about Buddhism per se. Its mostly just from my own experience and reflections that i use to try to relate with posts that are found to be interesting enough to respond to.

 

Stop projecting stuff. At the end of the day, its what you have shed, not what you have accumulated, that determines how 'light' your being becomes.

 

 

 

 

 

(apologies Drew - this was not necessary at all. Its off topic, and irrelevant. I had to respect Raymond's position though and try to explain some basic things which he projected that was not even there in the first place).

[voidisyinyang]

Thank you! This thread is very interesting and inspirational. A quick question, please -- could you expand a bit on the idea of flying dreams? This has always been my primary recurring dream and I find them to be increasing in both frequency and intensity.

 

Yeah flying dreams are great fun. I've been also having them more frequently lately. I got that from Bodri and Nan's EXCELLENT book "Measuring Meditation" available on http://meditationexpert.com -- there's a chapter excerpt there for free....

 

So the flying dream is from chi in the brain -- also most of the light experiences -- seeing light while meditating is just chi in the brain -- or the "wind" sensations.

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin says that the full lotus shows the body channels are open -- you have to make sure the body channels are open before the third eye opens up.

 

So I rely on the full lotus for my meditation -- and then combine that with fasting for better results.

 

But at first the "small universe" is the foundation of the practice -- you can get a 1/2 hour small universe practice c.d. for just $11 from http://springforestqigong.com -- I only mention it because several people on taobums have corroborated that this c.d. is particularly excellent for doing the "microcosmic orbit" or "small universe" practice. There's also an hour c.d. that's just the small universe.

 

So flying dreams means you're sublimating your jing or electrochemical energy into chi and that's an excellent first step in the practice. Then when you start having precognitive dreams it means the chi energy is turning into shen as the yin spirit body -- and during sleep there are spacetime travels.

 

This is part of the "astral tube" experience -- and not REAL astral travel which is actually an advanced yoga practice. In fact in "real" meditation you can not put it into words -- as Master Nan, Huai-chin states. People see stars during the day -- the light is dark blue but very bright and intense (not just the blue or violet light seen while chi is in the brain).

 

I never reached the real Emptiness level of nirvikalpa samadhi -- except just for a little bit -- but then I also received the laser-love or shen transmissions from Chunyi Lin. So if there's an energy master who can do the shen laser transmissions (which is very rare) then you are getting energy straight from the nondual realm and this is the way to open up the third eye straight from the upper tan tien emptiness meditation.

 

Gurdjieff calls that the Number 4 person -- who has a "permanent center of gravity" in the center of the brain -- but to reach the Number 5 person for real astral travel is actually very difficult and very few achieve that state of a real qigong master. Jim Nance did achieve that fully open third eye state for real astral travel with the supervision of Chunyi Lin. That's how the lineage is carried on with a teacher having one student who is supervised so that the third eye is fully opened.

 

I just sit in full lotus several hours a day but only in hour or half hour segments -- and while I'm doing that as the energy builds up from my lower body then my pineal gland "flexes" and the vagus nerve and carotid artery pulsate on my neck. Then the energy as chi and shen is transmitted out of my third eye into people around me who need the energy.

 

But to do this as the "macrocosmic orbit" you have to keep your body extremely pure -- this is why qigong masters are on the "modified bigu" diet which means fasting one day a week and then eating one little veggie meal a day.

 

That also means relying on external sources to maintain your jing energy -- and that's where the real secrets of yoga and qigong are held -- where the taboos are, etc. Otherwise you have to rely on food which is an impure source of jing energy that then has to be converted to chi -- but to convert food to chi means you also have to leach the toxins from your brain and body. So this is why the "Taoist Yoga" book states that the diet should be NO SALT because even salt is a poison.

 

Anyway Master Nan, Huai-chin states that the spiritual and the material realms do not mix -- so to be able to integrate the two is a very tricky proposition.

[Brian]

...

[voidisyinyang]

What an awesome response! Thank you most kindly.

 

Hey in case anyone hasn't seen John Chang's video yet -- amazing qigong healing!!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOHTnNjSX68

[fizix]

Hey in case anyone hasn't seen John Chang's video yet -- amazing qigong healing!!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOHTnNjSX68

lmaoo. John Who? Never heard of him on any qi gong forums. Perhaps this video is a great blessing unto him as surely he will gain popularity and enlarge his school and pupil base!

 

new age shamanistic tools galore! Be creative! We are the One living spirit, we are evolving love-life, and love life! Know no boundaries!

 

CowTao speaks great truth as well, folks. As I mentioned the "mountain" in my previous post, CowTao is speaking of the peak. Quite high and afar from the typical folk, almost unfathomable, conceptually discouraging to some, but true enlightenment in that one forgets all silly ideas, enlightenment/ignorance doesn't exist, there is only the Tao. When one reaches the top, he is detached, forgotten of, ever forgetting, ever detaching from being detached, forgetting of being forgotten of, forgetting to forget, forgetting to forgetting..... emptiness.

 

But oh, the folly of language, and our ego-self! Forget about who I am, it is true that "I am." but who am I? A creator! And many create and embrace the comfortable illusion, a dream in a dream, living in the shadows of reality! Who am I not! Everything and Nothing! And you can't take your new car with you, only your chi! You yourself are nothing but a vehicle! Woe to worship material deities.

 

Oh, this monkey has been fun! A very fun ride, what a grand experience, life on our mother earth! Complicated at times, but fun! Oh, the things people do with their time! Regret is only real when it's regret of missed life-love. Soon I'll dream of a butterfly, and the sleeping monkey man will think I'm in his dream, but he's in mine! But I'll love not knowing if I am the butterfly, the monkey man, or the celestial light refracting on a drop of morning dew on a fresh, beautiful blade of grass! Or it all! Or Nothing! Is there a difference?!

 

1.

 

How I wish I could comprehend the infinite vastness of One!

 

Speaking of one, the fathomability of zero before One is even more elusive!

 

But Zero and One co-exist as Absolution! YIN AND YANG!

 

LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

(^ awesome show too btw!)

 

 

 

 

Evince the plainness of undyed silk,

Embrace the simplicity of the unhewn log;

Lessen selfishness,

Diminish desires;

Abolish learning

 

The Light, the Truth grows inside you, it only get's stronger! The ego only gets stronger to battle the truth! Shamans use powerful tools; the sacred mushroom beholds many timeless secrets, purist Taoists see no rush!

 

Let us see no reason to ever deny a smile.

 

Now float down the river! NOW! Don't clutch onto anything, don't be afraid, there's nothing to be afraid of, there is only the great Tao and infinite love! Float down the river, it's beauty is forever, and you will know it! Everything else is illusion rooted from the ego-self!

 

Love life! Love attracts love! All the energy you send out eventually comes back to you! Negative or positive; live in love! Do not be afraid of the seeming challenges, do not think that enlightened beings are above reminiscing on the love-nostalgia of life! Early life vacations, relationships, Feel the love of the memories! You can literally feel the love manifested from the time because consciousness, love, the Taoist transcends the concepts of space and time!

 

Peace and love all!

[voidisyinyang]

lmaoo. John Who? Never heard of him on any qi gong forums.

 

Umm you can search his name on taobums -- you get

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=quick_search&search_sort_by=date&search_sort_order=desc&search_term=%22john+chang%22&search_filter_app[forums]=1&st=175

 

8 pages of results.

[time to change]

i had a flying dream it was awsome a was flying upwards then i got scare and decended but then i said let me fly up to the universe and the last thing i remember was that i got lost and returned to my body what does this mean in a tao view