Saludos

[Peregrino]

Hi, I'm peregrino (Spanish for pilgrim). Grew up in US, now live in Spain. Got into Taoism and other Eastern practices after becoming a martial arts fanatic as a teenager. Besides the teachings of Mantak Chia and Michael Winn, I find the musings of Raymond Sigrist (www.apophaticmysticism.com) about Tao and contemplation to be highly edifying. Wonder why no one seems to have mentioned Sigrist here yet . . . I'm also interested in Bill Bodri and the Taoism/Buddhism debates.

 

Cheers!

[cloud recluse]

Hi, I'm peregrino (Spanish for pilgrim). Grew up in US, now live in Spain. Got into Taoism and other Eastern practices after becoming a martial arts fanatic as a teenager. Besides the teachings of Mantak Chia and Michael Winn, I find the musings of Raymond Sigrist (www.apophaticmysticism.com) about Tao and contemplation to be highly edifying. Wonder why no one seems to have mentioned Sigrist here yet . . . I'm also interested in Bill Bodri and the Taoism/Buddhism debates.

 

Cheers!

Greetings from one Newbie to another Just glanced at Sigrists site,looks intruiging,& I swear Ive heard the name before but cannot place it.Is he a fairly well known critter ? Not very experienced on the alchemical side of things,& I find Chia's books a bit intimidating.But I am having a serious look at Ken Cohens stuff & am quite taken with it. What are your opinions on the Daoism/Buddhism debate,Coz Im REALLY opiniated on that topic Regards,Cloud.

[Peregrino]

Hi Cloud,

 

I only know Sigrist from the net--discovered him when looking into comparative mysticism (Quakerism vs. Zen vs. Meister Eckhart, etc.). Besides the "Apophatic Mysticism" site, he posts on other Taoist boards. Since I tend to be skeptical of the supernatural (as opposed to the mysterious realm of, well . . . "that which is discernible but not readily definable"), his simultaneously non-credulous but non-dismissive take on ultimate questions really appeals to me.

 

Hmm . . . My less-than-authoritative opinion on the Taoism vs. Buddhism debate is as follows: I find Taoism to be very sound for cultivating a sense of personal well-being, but Buddhism has a sense of ethical urgency that I think is direly important in the world today: think Bimrao Ambedkar's revolution of the untouchables in India in the 1950s, Buddhist monks assisting people with AIDS in Thailand, Buddhists picking up the pieces in post-Khmer Rouge Cambodia, and other examples of "engaged" Buddhism. That's not to say there aren't plenty of Buddhists who remain "unplugged" from the world and seek enlightenment without active service, and neither is it to say that there are not Taoists actively engaged in service either. These are just the generalities I see.

 

As for metaphysical questions (the nature of chi, reincarnation, the existence of ghosts) . . . I think I'll have to save that for another day!

 

Where are you in Australia? I was born in Christchurch, NZ (though I don't remember any of it), and my sister lived in Canberra for two years, so that part of the world definitely holds a special interest for me! As soon as I finally teach myself to surf, the call of Australia will only be that much more enticing . . .

 

Peace,

Peregrino

[cloud recluse]

 

 

Hmm . . . My less-than-authoritative opinion on the Taoism vs. Buddhism debate is as follows: I find Taoism to be very sound for cultivating a sense of personal well-being, but Buddhism has a sense of ethical urgency that I think is direly important in the world today: think Bimrao Ambedkar's revolution of the untouchables in India in the 1950s, Buddhist monks assisting people with AIDS in Thailand, Buddhists picking up the pieces in post-Khmer Rouge Cambodia, and other examples of "engaged" Buddhism. That's not to say there aren't plenty of Buddhists who remain "unplugged" from the world and seek enlightenment without active service, and neither is it to say that there are not Taoists actively engaged in service either. These are just the generalities I see.

 

Have you seen David Brazier's THE NEW BUDDHISM:A ROUGH GUIDE TO A NEW WAY OF LIFE ? It deals with engaged Buddhism,& actually makes the point that social engagement was part & parcel of the original vision! The Sangha emerges not as a renunciation of life,but as an alternative social model to mainstream society ,a healthier form of living IN the world.You might want to check out Ray Grigg's THE TAO OF ZEN for an interesting look at the Daoism vs Buddhism thing Regards,Cloud.

[Peregrino]

Thanks for the recs, Cloud. I really need to read something substantial (i.e. entire books) on the Taoism vs. Buddhism question . . . Perhaps you've already checked it out, but there are some interesting debates here and at the Healing Tao website on the subject. Thanks to those posts I discovered Bill Bodri and have taken up the "virtue course" outlined in his book _White Fat Cow_. Don't agree with Bodri on all the metaphysical points, but as far as outlining a practical plan for reaching your goals, serving others, and cultivating tranquility, I find the principles he teaches have a tremendous transformative power . . . And with several more months of application, I hope to write that "tremendous" in all caps.

 

Happy trails,

David

[cloud recluse]

TAO OF ZEN is a neat little book claiming that Zen is really Daoism in an ill-fitting Mahayana disguise.In order to do so,it has to distinguish between the two,and presents a critical look at the historical plausibility of the Zen lineage.I dont know of other works solely devoted to contrasting Buddhism & Daoism directly,if you find any PLEASE tell me immediately Havent checked out the HT debate yet,but will definetely have a glance. Regards,Cloud.

[Peregrino]

TAO OF ZEN is a neat little book claiming that Zen is really Daoism in an ill-fitting Mahayana disguise.In order to do so,it has to distinguish between the two,and presents a critical look at the historical plausibility of the Zen lineage.I dont know of other works solely devoted to contrasting Buddhism & Daoism directly,if you find any PLEASE tell me immediately Havent checked out the HT debate yet,but will definetely have a glance. Regards,Cloud.

 

Thanks for the rec--I'm only really beginning to look into this debate, so all my opinions are very tentative. While my impression right now is that Buddhism is often more "rigid" than Taoism, I still find Buddhist ethics to be compelling, even if I don't always follow their metaphysical basis; that's not to say that Taoism is somehow amoral to me, but I want to know more about ways Taosim has contributed towards concrete social changes as opposed to simply promoting individual cultivation. Not exactly an invidious comparison, I just want to know!

[sean]

My very limited understanding is that Taoism doesn't address top down social ethics much, it's more of a sense that a natural virtue and harmony arise when we are aligned with The Tao. This kind of training was it's speciality. I listened to a talk recently by Alan Wallace, where he talked about ancient China's relationship with Buddhism, Taoism and Confucism. My interpretation of what he said is basically that the Chinese drew on Buddhism for deeper spiritual development and a specific personal ethic, developed Taoism for subtle and gross body cultivation and an almost Advaitic bottom-up sense of reality and virtue, and Confucism for more top-down interpersonal and societal ethics. All three were held without contradiction for, as a whole, the Chinese civilization lacked an exclusivist notion that you have to be one thing and then repudiate or dismiss everything else.

 

Sean

[Peregrino]

Thanks Sean, that pretty much clarifies my idea that Taoism is a special tool for a special purpose (individual cultivation) and should not be held accountable for the purposes it does not address. For that reason, I look elsewhere for guidance in thinking about "big picture" or socio-historical ethical issues, while holding to Taoism for all kinds of wisdom regarding the conduct of daily life.

 

Peace,

David

[freeform]

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Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[Peregrino]

Thanks, Freeform--I didn't know about the Taoist contributions to scientific discoveries beyond personal well-being (e.g. the sound-based measurements). Reminds me that the partition today between "contemplative" and "academic" knowledge is really arbitrary and detrimental to the sum of human progress . . . Same could be said for the contemplative output of Plato, to which which modern science and mathematics also owe a great debt.

 

Best,

Peregrino

[Todd]

Oh yeah Taoists were the scientists of their time... they invented gunpowder, all kinds of heat-proof enamels, ways of storing/preparing food, agriculture, metalurgy, cloth-making, medicine etc... I was recently introduced to an incredible invention that would not only detect earthquakes but also be able to pin-point from which direction they originated. This was all happening while us europeans were crawling arround in mud looking for worms to eat ( ok - not literally... but china was way, waaayy ahead of europe in terms of inventiveness and science, all due to those creative Taoist fellows).

 

 

Hi Freeform,

 

This sounds interesting. Where can I read up on this?

 

Todd