Taking Revenge Without Holding onto Hatred

[mike1234]

What is your opinion on taking revenge without holding onto ANY hatred?

 

An example would be taking revenge on someone that has harmed your family. You take your anger and completely experience it, dissolve it, take your revenge, then forgive the antagonist and move on with your life.

 

The problem with revenge is that the act of revenge doesn't cleanse you of the pain that you've experienced. So, the goal is to experience your pain fully, and to NOT associate your revenge as a solution to your pain. Take the act of revenge for what it is-- What is revenge in this scenario? Justice? Instant Karma? Natural Law?

 

Just a thought!

[anatman]

not totally sure of what your asking,so i'm going to take a stab here.

 

anger and revenge are 2 different things,as far as i know.there is nothing wrong with anger in and of itself,so long as it isn't used for"destruction"(ie:revenge).and acting on that anger is also not a bad thing,but it shouldn't be mixed up with revenge.

 

i guess i liken it to the following:

hurt me and i will bruise you

bruise me and i will smash your flesh

smash my flesh,and i will break your bone(s)

 

 

and it goes on from there.while yes,it does sound violent,it is meant to stop it,or at least give the other person a chance to think first.and yes,i can see justifiable responses where family,friends,or even people who cannot defend themselves are appropriate.

 

i hope this makes sense,and it is in line with what you mean.if not,say so,and i'll go back to lurking.

Edited July 9, 2010 by anatman

[thelerner]

You're leaving something out of the equation. Counter revenge. Will you keep your calm demeanor and attitude of forgiveness if they do something nasty back to you or someone else because of your action?

 

 

There is human anger and the will to protect. You've already given away pieces and peace of mind when your thoughts turn to revenge. Its often a saintlyhood beyond us, but if there's no current threat, getting on with your life and not engaging in the revenge cycle is probably the best.

 

Otherwise as Don Corleone said: It'll keep pulling you in.

 

 

my 2 cents

Michael

[Marblehead]

Yes, this is a difficult subject to discuss. I agree that there is nothing wrong with anger. It is a natural human emotion.

 

Defending loved ones from harm is perfectly logical, IMO. All is fair here, I think.

 

After the fact, however, is another matter. I truely am unable to say yes or no to this because circumstances would govern what I would personally do myself.

 

Of course, considering whether the harm was intentional would be an important consideration. It it were accidental I believe that forgiveness is in order.

 

But then, if it were intentional perhaps the person causing the harm needs to learn a lesson. So instead of looking at it as revenge we could look at it as offering the person who did harm an important lesson in life. That way we would actually be helping the harm-doer instead of taking revenge.

 

Then again, violence breeds violence. And the violence escalates until one of the two parties end up in jail. What would that help?

 

Peace & Love!

[DarthBane]

[Owledge]

Not that I'm an expert, just some thoughts...

 

People who do bad things to others are usually screwed up in some way, so you can't really predict how that person will perceive your revenge. There are of course ways to optimize it, like letting the revenge follow immediately, but some people are so much screwed up that someone could punch you in the face and rob you and when you throw a stone at his head while he flees, he will honestly be furious about your unprovoked violent attack and swear eternal hostility to malevolent beings like out.

 

Figuratively speaking.

 

Since they definitely got screwed up by some form of pain, more pain probably won't help. And since they are screwed up, they will believe that their actions are righteous. Reason or logic don't play a part in that, because it's not so much their mind which is in control of their self. --> internal demons causing pain

There are also people who are aware that they are doing something nasty. Those people find a justification, a way to abandon responsibility. Could be seen as a kind of emergency survival strategy. --> fears imposed by living conditions

 

My conclusion from own experience: Try everything to stay away from those people. When this is not possible ... you're FUCKED!

Edited July 9, 2010 by Hardyg

[NeiChuan]

Don't look for revenge, and if they come to you don't look at it as revenge.

 

If they come around for whatever reason its upto you to confront.

[mike1234]

New scenario---

 

Your younger (cousin, brother, sister, etc,) runs home crying. He/She says that Joe neighbor inappropriately touched him/her. You live in a neighbor hood where it takes the police 30 minutes to show up. Joe neighbor is on the sex offender registry.

 

What do you do?

 

I go for the all out as kicking, and TRY not to bring my pistol.

 

Scenario 3---

 

You come home from work and you hear screams coming from your bedroom. Your wife is being a raped. She pleas NO NO NO STOP it! You burst through the door and the rapist jumps off your wife and raises his hands in the air.

 

What do you do?

 

I shoot to kill, then call the cops.

 

Scenario 4---

 

You come home from work and you hear screams ECSTASY coming from your bedroom. Your wife is cheating on you. You burst through the door, and your wife's lover jumps up with his hands in the air. He says, sorry dude!

 

What do you do?

 

Sorry dude... Bang

 

Scenario 5---

 

Your sister's boyfriend repeatedly beats her to a bloody pulp, and she refuses to call the police. You confront said boyfriend and he talks a lot of trash to you.

 

What do you do?

 

I let my pistol do the talking, and put a knife in his hand to justify my actions.

..

 

I guess the wimpy responses I got before was because I presented a wimpy scenario. My whole outlook on violence/self-defense/self-offense is too leave my enemy in a state where he cannot ever attack me or anyone else again. Fearing of retaliation is not an option in my world. Even in situations where serious violence is not needed or condoned, I am willing to create legal, and emotional justification for my acts. Coming to terms with this truth, I must also do some emotional cleaning of house. My enemies are dead or in a state where they can no longer attack anyone else. Did my anger towards them also died with their demise?

 

I suppose the sequence is: take your revenge(street justice), deal with your anger, deal with your loss, and get on with your life.

 

Writing this make me want to turn into Batman

Edited July 9, 2010 by mike1234

[Owledge]

Scenario 4---

 

You come home from work and you hear screams ECSTASY coming from your bedroom. Your wife is cheating on you. You burst through the door, and your wife's lover jumps up with his hands in the air. He says, sorry dude!

 

What do you do?

 

Sorry dude... Bang

Why don't you shoot your wife?

[mike1234]

Why don't you shoot your wife?

 

Because that would definitely result in prison time!

Edited July 9, 2010 by mike1234

[Owledge]

Because that would definitely result in prison time!

I don't see a significant difference in this situation to shooting the lover. Both can be declared as temporary sanity. ... I mean insanity. INsanity of course.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Hardyg

[Guest paul walter]

What is your opinion on taking revenge without holding onto ANY hatred?

 

An example would be taking revenge on someone that has harmed your family. You take your anger and completely experience it, dissolve it, take your revenge, then forgive the antagonist and move on with your life.

 

The problem with revenge is that the act of revenge doesn't cleanse you of the pain that you've experienced. So, the goal is to experience your pain fully, and to NOT associate your revenge as a solution to your pain. Take the act of revenge for what it is-- What is revenge in this scenario? Justice? Instant Karma? Natural Law?

 

Just a thought!

 

 

Hi Mik, my deep and troubling experience of this is this: that you recognise and "name" exactly what the injustice is that others have done to you (don't know if you could do it for others e.g. your family) and empty yourself of all emotion. When you are 100% clear and focused then give whatever others have 'given' to you that you never asked for back to them. Give them back their projection of their own problems onto you and their inability to be responsible for the harm they cause others. This has various pluses in my experience--it puts the onus squarely back into the others' karmic field, if you will, and also has the effect of making you more than "revenge" and its belittling effects. You also learn exactly how you fit into the picture and take responsibility for your part in the causal flow of the actions that have happened. This is all pure psychotherapy by the way, nothing mysterious. If you've never considered something like this it is an education in itself,you can find a lot about the secret hurts you carry around inside, whereas the acting out of violence of any kind (including all the mental violence/revenge) will have to be dealt with later and will be even harder to deal with because of other layer/s of complication accumulated through being angry/resentful. It sucks I know--but one of the lessons of life is to be responsible for the entire world since such concepts as "justice" hardly exist down here on earth. Paul

Edited July 10, 2010 by paul walter

[Sahaj Nath]

What is your opinion on taking revenge without holding onto ANY hatred?

 

An example would be taking revenge on someone that has harmed your family. You take your anger and completely experience it, dissolve it, take your revenge, then forgive the antagonist and move on with your life.

 

 

i've read this post over and over again, and i still don't understand the point. are you talking about taking revenge without accruing a karmic debt?

 

plus:

 

The problem with revenge is that the act of revenge doesn't cleanse you of the pain that you've experienced.

 

really? that's the problem with revenge? so if you solve that little issue, you are free to take all the revenge you want? again, i just don't get it.

 

So, the goal is to experience your pain fully, and to NOT associate your revenge as a solution to your pain. Take the act of revenge for what it is-- What is revenge in this scenario?

 

it's still revenge. *shrugs*

 

without knowing exactly what you're getting at, let me take a shot in the dark:

 

the very word revenge necessarily implies a quality of attachment. the scenarios that you listed above are used to make mental modifications in order to justify the vengeful actions. the problem is that the justification ITSELF ensures that the hatred/revenge/motivating force is NEVER let go. that's kind of its job- to make the revenge okay in the psyche of the actor. the modification operates like a continuous program running in the background of the individual's character.

 

if you could truly take the action AND let go of the hatred/motivating force/WHATEVER, then the justification for the action would become null and void. maybe some true sociopaths can carry out this level of value-free vengeance, but otherwise it just is what it is. such behavior is very much on the lower rungs of the ladder of cognitive moral development. we all have the capacity for it, but we are also capable of transcending such motivations.

 

but what's the point anyway?

 

...

 

 

okay, i just read your latter post fully:

 

My whole outlook on violence/self-defense/self-offense is too leave my enemy in a state where he cannot ever attack me or anyone else again. Fearing of retaliation is not an option in my world. Even in situations where serious violence is not needed or condoned, I am willing to create legal, and emotional justification for my acts. Coming to terms with this truth, I must also do some emotional cleaning of house. My enemies are dead or in a state where they can no longer attack anyone else. Did my anger towards them also died with their demise?

 

no. it didn't. and i explained why above.

 

your "emotional cleaning of house" doesn't fly because each act of vengeance further entrenches your "outlook on violence." it reinforces and strengthens that character trait, oftentimes to perverse proportions, like the notion of being a sort of vigilante super-hero. the batman comment only further underscores the point.

[h.uriahr]

What's the actual point of this? I dont personally believe that even the thought of revenge is of any benefit whatsoever. Holding onto anger isnt a good thing and neither is hurting some to help rid yourself of the anger.

 

I think all of the beating and raping scenarios are completely inappropriate for the question posted because in all of those situations, the act of revenge isnt going to run through your head. The protection of your loved one or neighbor is going to be priority. I think they are 2 entirely seperate "feelings". If my wife was getting raped when I came home you can bet your ass that I'm definitely NOT thinking about "how can I get even", I'm probably not actually thinking at all. My killswitch is engaged and every breath in body will be used to defend my wife, which would likely result in either his death or my own.

 

Now, if I came home and the cops were there and I find out that she was raped, then I might be praying for a revenge scenario.

 

If you're a good person at heart, taking revenge will probably make you feel bad in the end.

 

Back in highschool, I had this kid who was pestering me for a week or so. I wasnt confrontational so I just took it. One day though he just got so bad that I told him, "if you dont leave me alone I'm going to kick your ass". Well, he didnt leave me alone so when it was time for PE, I kicked his ass in the locker room. Guess what. I felt like shit. It was completely unnecessary. I went out of my way to talk to him afterwards, thinking that if I became his friend it would make things better. It didnt. I still feel kinda bad about it to this day.

 

Bottom line, holding onto any emotion isnt healthy. Anger obviously cant be bad just because we experience it, seeing as how it's natural, and nothing in nature is evil. Just dont hold onto it. Revenge line of thinking is holding onto it and that's no bueno mi amigo.

[Marblehead]

What's the actual point of this? I dont personally believe that even the thought of revenge is of any benefit whatsoever. Holding onto anger isnt a good thing and neither is hurting some to help rid yourself of the anger.

 

Excellent post and considerations, I think. Thanks for sharing.

 

Peace & Love!

[Ryan T.]

New scenario---

 

I go for the all out as kicking, and TRY not to bring my pistol.

 

Scenario 3---

 

I shoot to kill, then call the cops.

 

Scenario 4---

 

Sorry dude... Bang

 

Scenario 5---

 

I let my pistol do the talking, and put a knife in his hand to justify my actions.

 

So you're coming onto a Taoist discussion board to find out what people feel would be the spiritual ramifications of you doling out vigilante justice with "your pistol". I believe that is what you are asking, either that or you just want to increase your "street cred" here on the internets. Either way this is my response:

 

 

 

"Weapons are the tools of violence;

all decent men detest them.

 

Weapons are the tools of fear;

a decent man will avoid them

except in the direst necessity

and, if compelled, will use them

only with the utmost restraint.

Peace is his highest value.

If the peace has been shatteered,

how can he be content?

His enemies are not demons,

but human beings like himself.

He doesn't wish them personal harm.

Nor does her rejoice in victory.

could he rejoice in victory

and delight in the slaughter of men?

 

He enters a battle gravely,

with sorrow and with great compassion,

as if he were attending a funeral."

 

Tao Te Ching, 31

Stephen Mitchell translation

 

 

I guess the wimpy responses I got before was because I presented a wimpy scenario. My whole outlook on violence/self-defense/self-offense is too leave my enemy in a state where he cannot ever attack me or anyone else again. Fearing of retaliation is not an option in my world. Even in situations where serious violence is not needed or condoned, I am willing to create legal, and emotional justification for my acts. Coming to terms with this truth, I must also do some emotional cleaning of house. My enemies are dead or in a state where they can no longer attack anyone else. Did my anger towards them also died with their demise?

 

I suppose the sequence is: take your revenge(street justice), deal with your anger, deal with your loss, and get on with your life.

 

Writing this make me want to turn into Batman

 

In my opinion you seem to take too much pleasure in the act of or the idea of exacting revenge from those you believe have wronged or will wrong you. Either that or you have a lingering unresolved anger that puts your mind on this path.

 

It may feel good to take your revenge or think about as you do but when all is done your pain will remain.

[Owledge]

Back in highschool, I had this kid who was pestering me for a week or so. I wasnt confrontational so I just took it. One day though he just got so bad that I told him, "if you dont leave me alone I'm going to kick your ass". Well, he didnt leave me alone so when it was time for PE, I kicked his ass in the locker room. Guess what. I felt like shit. It was completely unnecessary. I went out of my way to talk to him afterwards, thinking that if I became his friend it would make things better. It didnt. I still feel kinda bad about it to this day.

Could you please give more details about the events? About why he did it. About what was in the talks afterwards. Would give me valuable insight.

 

If you're looking to grow spiritually from this specific situation and the pain it causes you and your family, pull your spirit up by its bootstraps and open your heart. Every perpetrator could benefit from a whole lotta love.

In parts from experience, I really think if you're in a situation that normally could trigger thoughts of revenge, trying to send the perpetrator love could produce a veeeery bad backlash. Either you drain yourself of any positivity that's left, or the perpetrator sees your actions as weakness and gives his demons even more freedom of action against you.

 

"Weapons are the tools of violence;

all decent men detest them.

Moralistic ... and kinda contradictory to some other parts of that book.

I do archery. It helps me turn off my mind and explore unconscious senses. I even shoot rubber animals.

 

By the way... Richard Wilhelm's translation into English:

Even the most beautiful weapons are calamity-bringing instruments, and the creatures surely hate them.

 

Some translators probably need to put their ego aside. Although Chinese is admittedly a multi-faceted language. But translators also allow themselves a lot of 'creative freedom' concerning simpler languages.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Hardyg

[Birch]

My favourite form of revenge is living well.

[Marblehead]

My favourite form of revenge is living well.

 

Good! And not letting those who would do us harm ever to get the upper hand on us and cause us to feel the emotion of hate.

 

Peace & Love!

[Dr. Dcup]

Revenge by at least its implied definition is anger (or hatred and other permutations). So they are not mutually exclusive, if you want revenge then you are angry.

 

Weapons by themselves are not evil. Jokingly if they were, every person in the kitchen cutting something would be evil. Everything is inherently neutral it is your perception that changes it one way or the other. It all boils down to the intent behind the object ie. you.

[Owledge]

Revenge by at least its implied definition is anger (or hatred and other permutations). So they are not mutually exclusive, if you want revenge then you are angry.

So the potentially emotionless or at least angerless variant would be called "retribution"?

[thelerner]

New scenario---

 

Your younger (cousin, brother, sister, etc,) runs home crying. He/She says that Joe neighbor inappropriately touched him/her. You live in a neighbor hood where it takes the police 30 minutes to show up. Joe neighbor is on the sex offender registry.

 

What do you do?

 

I go for the all out as kicking, and TRY not to bring my pistol.

 

Scenario 3---

 

You come home from work and you hear screams coming from your bedroom. Your wife is being a raped. She pleas NO NO NO STOP it! You burst through the door and the rapist jumps off your wife and raises his hands in the air.

 

What do you do?

 

I shoot to kill, then call the cops.

 

Scenario 4---

 

You come home from work and you hear screams ECSTASY coming from your bedroom. Your wife is cheating on you. You burst through the door, and your wife's lover jumps up with his hands in the air. He says, sorry dude!

 

What do you do?

 

Sorry dude... Bang

 

Scenario 5---

 

Your sister's boyfriend repeatedly beats her to a bloody pulp, and she refuses to call the police. You confront said boyfriend and he talks a lot of trash to you.

 

What do you do?

 

I let my pistol do the talking, and put a knife in his hand to justify my actions.

..

 

I guess the wimpy responses I got before was because I presented a wimpy scenario. My whole outlook on violence/self-defense/self-offense is too leave my enemy in a state where he cannot ever attack me or anyone else again. Fearing of retaliation is not an option in my world. Even in situations where serious violence is not needed or condoned, I am willing to create legal, and emotional justification for my acts. Coming to terms with this truth, I must also do some emotional cleaning of house. My enemies are dead or in a state where they can no longer attack anyone else. Did my anger towards them also died with their demise?

 

I suppose the sequence is: take your revenge(street justice), deal with your anger, deal with your loss, and get on with your life.

 

Writing this make me want to turn into Batman

 

eh, Batman is comic boook character and he lives in a comic book world. You may as well inspire to be Scooby Doo. The situations you present are extreme, basing morality on extremes is a bad idea.

 

In the real world its not a child molester who's upset your kid, its another kid or parent. That is what happens 999/1000 times, putting your mindset into the revenge/fantasy mode is going to make you over react most times, as well as increase paranoia and anxiety.

 

Again you stop w/ 'get on with your life', when in reality its being hauled into the police station, and a long involvement in revenge & counter revenge, linking of karmas that may go for a very long time.

 

I'm not saying violence is always wrong, or not understandable. But, in problem solving, if you look at violence as a shiny golden tool (just like in comic books & TV) you pull it out when its not appropriate and you'll be up in shits creek for months or years. Why?? Cause it wasn't a child molester, wasn't a rapist, wasn't one sided between sister and her boyfriend. In anger you thought it was because you cling to a fantasy.

 

Take the sister being beat to a pulp scenario. What happens in reality is your sister is going to have messy break ups. She will cry and be miserable, but not be beaten to a pulp. Live in fantasy/revenge land, indulge in it and you can count on her not speaking to you for months or years.

 

Be wary of decisions made in anger. Cause you never 'just walk away' from them. In 17 years in the martial arts, one the most important things I was taught is; If you're angry fine, you don't need to repress it, but you may not feed it.

 

My sensei studied bar fights, he once said 'What messes you up and get you killed is wanting the last word. Having won or lost, getting in the last comment, turning back to the conflict is what turns victory into defeat, and loss into disaster.

 

Don't play comic book character, move away quickly with awareness. Win or lose. Teaching 'them' a lesson is pointless.

 

my 2 cents.

 

 

Michael

 

May as well spit this out as long as I've thought of it. Your child molester scenario may well leave your kid, molested and without a father for 5 to 10 years. When you're out of prison if you find your wife in bed with someone else, thats another 20 to 50 years the kid is fatherless.

 

Hell, if you're willing to murder due to infidelity then you're probably willing to beat the shit out of your girlfriend for cheating on you. Then if she has a brother like you, he beats you to a pulp or kills you, in double counter revenge you wind up prison..the degeneracy you experience there makes you... cycles go on and on, until someone forgives and walks away.

 

Thats not to say there should be no justice, but actions done in anger tend to bare rotten fruit.

[Dr. Dcup]

So the potentially emotionless or at least angerless variant would be called "retribution"?

 

Retribution is reward or punishment. Maybe the universe's retribution is emotionless or valid, I don't know. But to me when instigated by a human it seems the most basic impulse for punishment is revenge/anger.

[DarthBane]

I wasnt going to post again but even though I have owned guns the direction the original postee has taken the topic makes me personally feel like it belongs on a type of NRA or gun forum or some sort maybe even americas 1st freedom type forums.

I am not fond enough of guns to try to find one, but it seems more of a likely neighborhood to be discussing revenge and guns.

[Owledge]

Everything is (part of the) Dao.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Hardyg