Is Tao an Ontological Essence of Life?

[ralis]

Indeed. I think that was a very nice recap of what is and isn't.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Are you in Marblehead Ma.?

 

ralis

[Raymond Wolter]

Really? Show me one where i supposedly 'dug' at Mr Songs?

 

Where did i claim to be compassionate? I have none, but with you around, i'm beginning to generate tiddly bits of it, so thank you very much (again).

 

So Ralis is the only lucky one? Mr. Songs, sorry, you will need to wait for your turn.

 

Sorry for the assumption that you were compassionate. All that correcting and preaching you do on these threads, I assumed was out of compassion for those treading incomplete and flawed paths. So I guess you are just showing off then? Not sure showing off one's Latin skills in Timbuktu will win one acclaim, even if one assumes Latin to be the universal language and the only clear, true and most useful language.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Raymond Wolter

[Marblehead]

It's ramifications lead to understanding directly, infinite regress which is the realization of endless and infinite mindstreams as well, all empty of inherent existence and inter-dependently originated, endlessly. Not leading to a single all encompassing substratum, which is not what Rigpa means, or like concepts of God as a willful Alpha of everything, or an underlying essence that one must surrender to.

 

The religion of dependent origination is much subtler than you have yet to understand ralis. This is because you only have periphery experience and not in depth experience. I know this from your responses to me.

 

You also don't understand how we collectively as endless sentient beings and Buddhas are the prime movers and manipulators of experiential reality, even in matter without beginning, Buddhas from a liberated point of reference and Samsarins from a bound point of reference, thus we have endless dualisms. You say, "what? How can we be the cause of this material reality? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!" You say this because you have not delved deep enough into your own unconscious and uncovered your previous existences directly. Seeing your previous existences directly also see's others and how we've been playing endlessly and manipulating matter endlessly as beings of consciousness. Your periphery and merely intellectual comprehension that lacks direct experience of the profundity of the Buddhas teaching is plastered all over your reactions to my statements backed by sages far deeper than your comprehension.

 

We can come to a common ground, but you need to open up beyond your bitter points of reference concerning a time proven spiritual tradition that liberates deeply, called Buddhism. You just see what you want to see and you think you're right, but this is only because you really do lack direct experiencing. You need a nice dose of humility as your intellectual boner takes too much space in your brain activity. You are too proud!

 

Okay. I am going to say right here that this post was a direct challenge for an argument.

 

VJ, have you ever considered the thought that Ralis does not want to accept Buddhist thought?

 

You judged him in many ways above, and you have, firstly, no right to be judging, and secondly, unfairly because you are judging according to 'your' criteria and not 'his'.

 

And lastly, this thread is not for the purpose of showing the shortcomings of anyone who does not accept Buddhism as the base philosophy of life. It is about Taoism.

 

Yes, we can compare and contrast but in suggesting that Ralis is lacking because he follows Tao instead of Buddhism is totally unacceptable, IMO.

 

Please understand that not everyone wishes to be a Buddhist. Some of us have tried and found it lacking in foundation.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

And Mr. Cow, you forgot to thank me for giving you an opportunity to observe your reactions to my snides, let go and contemplate. Should not a true contemplative person like yourself use every snide and praise as tool for self-evaluation and technique to observe the mind? I thought Vajrayana teaches one to use every hindrance as a tool

 

Also, when I expressed similar disagreements with ShaktiMama and Santiago (who I maintain are very nice people) over Shaktipat - what will like to call "snides" perhaps - I got a PM from your kind self congratulating me and expressing support. I appeal to you to see this conversation in a similar spirit of disagreement and not disharmony, even if the disagreement is with your home team - Vajra and Buddha - not necessarily in that order.

Support offered when support is due. Any problems with that? We had a common understanding on that particular issue, and i expressed solidarity, as normal folks do sometimes. Nothing personal.

 

Disagree by all means, with counter arguments preferably. Or exercise the preferred option of keeping an open mind, both of which you have chosen to put aside.

 

I have 'known' Ralis for a while now, and i have no probs with him, and he, i assume, feels the same about me. Never engaged in any verbal fisticuffs with him before, and never will, because i know and accept his style here. I am beginning to understand yours too, now. Hopefully we can get somewhere.. where is entirely your choice.

[C T]

Hello Stig,

 

Please accept my apology for being a part of this disruptive drama that just unfolded here. Its unfortunate, and i take some of the blame.

 

sincerely.

[Raymond Wolter]

Or exercise the preferred option of keeping an open mind, both of which you have chosen to put aside.

 

Which is your take on it. Ask the few others here and they probably feel the same about you and Vajra here. That exactly is the point I am trying to make. Don't try to conclude who is open minded or not based on who agrees or not with you. Which is why I said, it would do a lot of good to examine your own attachments. But where is the possibility of that when you have concluded you have no attachments, Buddha's path is the best and the only one without even having compassion for a virtual soul on this forum (as you admitted yourself) and having not walked the path? Why do you conclude, talk and preach when you clearly do not have the basic qualification to do that - compassion and even a bit of it (quoting your own words).

 

There is often a lot of darkness beneath the lamp. I am not sure if Daniel Ingram is doing retreats anymore but if he is, you are surely one who would benefit from it. It is just a sincere advice and you are free to reject it as most armchair philosophers do. I was exactly you a decade ago till my first retreat in Thailand. I love to quote Suttas too, have done that enough in E-Sangha but choose not to do it anymore for that is so not what Buddha wanted us to do.

[Marblehead]

Typical ralis reasoning. You endlessly demonstrate the real problem with most people on planet Earth, who think they know without actually having been here with awareness for very long.

 

I'm not your typical Buddhist who has just read some books and "believes". Get over yourself and get over your judgment of Buddhist terminology as you merely show your lack of flexibility.

 

You've been following me around, judging me endlessly. Look in the mirror more deeply.

 

I'm just finally telling you about yourself as you endlessly judge me, no matter how much I ignore you. You don't even really read the meaning of my statements, all you spit is your dogmatic spite.... over and over and over and over.

 

You both are constantly judging each other and neither of you have the right to do so.

 

And thank the gods that you are not a typical Buddhist else Buddhism would have died centeries ago.

 

Where's Matt? There is your typical Buddhist.

 

VJ, have you figured it out yet????? Ralis will be on your case any time you inject your Buddhist stuff in a thread that was written up for the purpose of discussing Taoism????

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Also, we don't "control"...

 

Real Buddhists don't control anything. Submit VJ, SUBMIT to the flow of the universe!!!

 

Peace & Love!

[Raymond Wolter]

Hello Stig,

 

Please accept my apology for being a part of this disruptive drama that just unfolded here. Its unfortunate, and i take some of the blame.

 

sincerely.

 

 

Lol sorry had to do one last gig before retiring for the day. So trying to score brownie points with the Moderator? Is Vajra the owner of a part of the blame too or his merit badge is still intact?

 

Good night

[Marblehead]

It's really only Buddhas who have freedom, as they are awake.

 

Yeah, VJ has a tendency to state pure BS now and then.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

This is quite private ...

 

Well, why not keep it that way and stop displaying it in public?

 

You do know that your delusions mean nothing to we Taoists, don't you?

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

All I am really going to speak about is the content of Suttas and Sutras.

 

If you actually read the Suttas and Sutras, you do see many debates by the Buddha.

 

The Buddha did debate against other belief systems.

 

If you want to know me further, you can go ahead and read my past posts with an open mind. Thus far, you have not really shown much of an open mind towards anything I've said, so... why speak?

 

I would really rather you wouldn't in this thread that was originated for the purpose of discussing Taoist philosophy.

 

Perhaps you can start a thread and ask the question: "Is Buddhism a delusion or is it a statement of true reality as observed by the human mind?"

 

I am sure it would be a good long-lived thread.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

Which is your take on it. Ask the few others here and they probably feel the same about you and Vajra here. That exactly is the point I am trying to make. Don't try to conclude who is open minded or not based on who agrees or not with you. Which is why I said, it would do a lot of good to examine your own attachments. But where is the possibility of that when you have concluded you have no attachments, Buddha's path is the best and the only one without even having compassion for a virtual soul on this forum (as you admitted yourself) and having not walked the path? Why do you conclude, talk and preach when you clearly do not have the basic qualification to do that - compassion and even a bit of it (quoting your own words).

 

There is often a lot of darkness beneath the lamp. I am not sure if Daniel Ingram is doing retreats anymore but if he is, you are surely one who would benefit from it. It is just a sincere advice and you are free to reject it as most armchair philosophers do. I was exactly you a decade ago till my first retreat in Thailand. I love to quote Suttas too, have done that enough in E-Sangha but choose not to do it anymore for that is so not what Buddha wanted us to do.

Thanks once again for the kindly advice. Duly noted. Its great to be reminded by one such as yourself.

 

Again you are projecting stuff onto 'me' - why do you insist on creating awkward corners where others are left with no option but to clarify things to you?

 

Here it is again, for your pleasure: I dont care if you agree with me or not. That is not the reason we come to a forum. Not mine, anyway.

 

Where did i verbally exert that Buddhism is superior to all other paths?

 

I have made more than one thousand posts, and have not quoted Sutta in more than 4 of them. Seems like that is 4 too many for you, obviously.

 

You are not me. Period.

 

Its grand you have done a retreat in Thailand. Well for some. You do not want to hear of my retreat experiences. Trust me. It would only make you laugh.

 

I enjoy reading posts made by MH, A7, Mark Foote, Sloppy, Lucky7 and many others here. No reason to discriminate who is Buddhist or whatever, and i exchange thoughts with them sometimes, sometimes not, and other times i just have fun in the Haiku Chain. But you choose not to see these things because your projections of me have blinded you.

 

I have taken your advice on board, now perhaps you would take mine: Cease projecting things that have no basis. The only one you really end up pleasing is yourself.

 

Have a good day Raymond.

Edited July 15, 2010 by CowTao

[Marblehead]

Are you in Marblehead Ma.?

 

ralis

 

No, I'm in Florida, but that is the source of the name. (From the music group "Seatrain" that formed in Marblehead.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Raymond Wolter]

Thanks once again for the kindly advice. Duly noted. Its great to be reminded by one such as yourself.

 

Again you are projecting stuff onto 'me' - why do you insist on creating awkward corners where others are left with no option but to clarify things to you?

 

Here it is again, for your pleasure: I dont care if you agree with me or not. That is not the reason we come to a forum. Not mine, anyway.

 

Where did i verbally exert that Buddhism is superior to all other paths?

 

I have made more than one thousand posts, and have not quoted Sutta in more than 4 of them. Seems like that is 4 too many for you, obviously.

 

You are not me. Period.

 

Its grand you have done a retreat in Thailand. Well for some. You do not want to hear of my retreat experiences. Trust me. It would only make you laugh.

 

I enjoy reading posts made by MH, A7, Mark Foote, Sloppy, Lucky7 and many others here. No reason to discriminate who is Buddhist or whatever, and i exchange thoughts with them sometimes, sometimes not, and other times i just have fun in the Haiku Chain. But you choose not to see these things because your projections of me have blinded you.

 

I have taken your advice on board, now perhaps you would take mine: Cease projecting things that have no basis. The only one you really end up pleasing is yourself.

 

Have a good day Raymond.

 

 

And what about your unconditional endorsement of Vajra's proclamation of Buddhist superiority? You called him the true champion of Dharma and that obviously means you agree with him. His basic argument has been the superiority of Buddhism over other paths and most often nothing more than that. Also, if you read this thread, or others, you jump in to defend Vajra whether needed or not. So what is all this diplomacy about? Your proclamation of Buddhist superiority is not direct but stealthy. Like I said elsewhere, Vajra anyday is better as he is not scared of expressing himself and makes no pretenses. You seem to be so afraid to express yourself truly and want to hide behind the persona of a "nice guy". If that benefits you and makes you happy, so be it. If you disagree with Vajra's proclamation, why not say it out loud? Of course, you need not and are free not to do that but at point, going by your unconditional award to Vajra as the "true" Buddhist and the one with "right view", it would only mean that ascertaining Buddhist superiority over other paths and repeatedly harping over how other paths lead only to rebirth is indeed the right view and you subscribe to it. None of what I say is projection but simply deduction based on your own posts.

 

And may be you are the one projecting. Is it not possible? Not even faintly?

 

Edited July 15, 2010 by Raymond Wolter

[Marblehead]

And so the rest of the posts were concerning Buddhism or just an exercise in disputation.

 

I am a Philosophical Taoist. Did y'all know that? I thought Stig originated an excellent thread for the purpose of discussing Taoism. Good job Stig.

 

Too bad we went down in the gutter for the purpose of arguement on a subject that had absolutely nothing to do with your OP.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

Raymond, you are an exasperating nincompoop. Unbelievable. And thick too. You cant even take the cue to stop this messing about and disrupting the topic at hand.

 

I offered an apology to show that enough has been said, and you, in your infinite wisdom, spat out that i am trying to gain brownie points.

 

Simply incredible you are.

 

(and i have endorsed posts made by others too - so what?)

Edited July 15, 2010 by CowTao

[Raymond Wolter]

Raymond, you are an exasperating nincompoop. Unbelievable. And thick too. You cant even take the cue to stop this messing about and disrupting the topic at hand.

 

I offered an apology to show that enough has been said, and you, in your infinite wisdom, spat out that i am trying to gain brownie points.

 

Simply incredible you are.

Mr. Cow, where is the eloquent language, the advice to turn frustration and anger as tools for inner contemplation etc.? All the finesse is gone when subjected to some trial and turbulence? Need more meditation no? Why did this thought about disruption and repentance for the same not come earlier when Vajra went nonstop talking about totally irrelevant stuff? Home team or just cannot argue with him? Does it not sound hypocritical? I was not on this thread till a while ago, so what about the disruption caused by the one you have awarded your unconditional appreciation?

 

I am glad at least your expressing your real emotions this time and not hiding behind a make believe persona of Mr. Nice and Holier than Thou. Congrats on your first step to freedom my Friend. It is okay that you have chosen not to answer any of my perfectly logical questions and that in itself is the answer.

 

Incredible did you say? Thank you. I take that as a compliment and turn adversity into a tool taking Rangjung Dorje's primary advice as a precursor to the teaching of Mahamudra.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Raymond Wolter

[Marblehead]

So anyway, is there anyone around who would like to discuss Taoist concepts?

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

Mr. Cow, where is the eloquent language, the advice to turn frustration and anger as tools for inner contemplation etc.? All the finesse is gone when subjected to some trial and turbulence? Need more meditation no? I am glad at least your expressing your real emotions this time and not hiding behind a make believe persona of Mr. Nice and Holier than Thou. Congrats on your first step to freedom my Friend. It is okay that you have chosen not to answer any of my perfectly logical questions and that in itself is the answer.

 

Incredible did you say? Thank you. I take that as a compliment and turn adversity into a tool taking Rangjung Dorje's primary advice as a precursor to the teaching of Mahamudra.

I give up. Guilty as charged. Victory is yours. Your questions are pure logic, totally beyond my limited comprehension. Sorry.

[Raymond Wolter]

I give up. Guilty as charged. Victory is yours. Your questions are pure logic, totally beyond my limited comprehension. Sorry.

There you go! Easy was it not? I bet that is how most people stop arguing with Vajra as well. They just get tired and give up. Some of his Karma is yours too I guess on account of your rallying for him.

 

Two ways to look at this - as further evasion of some serious, logical questions regarding your take on Buddhism as the only path; or as an attempt to surrender to silence and contemplate and look within to even consider a possibility that everything is not perfect there - and that everything is not so "thick" elsewhere I will go with the latter assumption. I still have some faith in your earlier persona of eloquent words and language of peace.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Raymond Wolter

[adept]

So anyway, is there anyone around who would like to discuss Taoist concepts?

 

Peace & Love!

 

Yes, but there aren't many of us.

You know, I used to have a liking for some forms of Buddhism (Chan, Zen, Son). But the constant fundamentalist preaching by Vaj and a few others on here has made me realize that it's not for me. True buddhists wouldn't even argue or claim superiority over other points of view.

How sad.

[Apech]

So anyway, is there anyone around who would like to discuss Taoist concepts?

 

Peace & Love!

 

Yep. I can't believe I've just logged on and this thread is just one long bickering row about Buddhism. I didn't read it all because I was loosing the will to live.

 

See you later guys and I hope to read some interesting ideas.

[Marblehead]

Yes, but there aren't many of us.

You know, I used to have a liking for some forms of Buddhism (Chan, Zen, Son). But the constant fundamentalist preaching by Vaj and a few others on here has made me realize that it's not for me. True buddhists wouldn't even argue or claim superiority over other points of view.

How sad.

 

Yes, that was what my posts above were pointing at.

 

All the senseless arguing only presents both Buddhism and Taoism as being invalid philosophies. Claims of superiority are so narrow-minded and conceited it is impossible to believe that either holds to the concept of being all-embracing.

 

Buddhism is a valid path for those who wish to journey in that direction. But it is not the 'only' philosophy of life and for sure, it is only 'superior' for those who have found that the philosophy is valid for them. I am quite sure that any Moslim would say that all Buddhists have lost their way.

 

"Superior" applies only to the individual. That is, their path is the best path at the moment. Tomorrow may be different.

 

For me Taoism is "superior". There are many folks who feel that Christianity is "superior" and that all Buddhists and Taoists are people who have not yet 'seen the light'.

 

To constantly argue over our delusions when there is only one reality is so useless.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

Okay. I am going to say right here that this post was a direct challenge for an arguement.

 

VJ, have you ever considered the thought that Ralis does not want to accept Buddhist thought?

 

You do not have direct experience of our history, first of all.

 

Second... I don't care if he doesn't accept Buddhist thought, that is fine. So, he doesn't have to accept Buddhist terminology. That is fine, if he is liberated from all terminology then he can understand the meaning of all it's expressions. Every-time I post, he insists it's from mere book worm conditioning... or from the point of view of religiosity. Of this he is gravely mistaken and thus contradicts from the point of view of mis-association and mis-comprehension.

 

You judged him in many ways above, and you have, firstly, no right to be judging, and secondly, unfairly because you are judging according to 'your' criteria and not 'his'.

 

You should take a look at his historical rebuttals towards me MarbleH. If you are to come from a more informed state of mind.

And lastly, this thread is not for the purpose of showing the shortcomings of anyone who does not accept Buddhism as the base philosophy of life. It is about Taoism.

 

Whatever, you are taking things too personally and are coming from a place of defensiveness right here. The main point of this argument is whether "the way" is an ontological essence or an undefinable flow of non-self oriented, but interconnected phenomena. I have stated so many times that "Dharma" means..."The way" but you so called experienced but neophyte like seem to not see past your curtain of conceptual bondage and merely see, "Dharma" as more Buddhist jargon to defend against. You have no idea how trapped you are in what you project me to be.

Yes, we can compare and contrast but in suggesting that Ralis is lacking because he follows Tao instead of Buddhism is totally unacceptable, IMO.

 

He does not follow Tao as he is quite inflexible in his ability to re-orient his inner conceptual mapping.

 

Please understand that not everyone wishes to be a Buddhist. Some of us have tried and found it lacking in foundation.

 

Subjective mis-representation at work here.

 

You can continue to bark like a dog in heat or really understand the context.