Is Tao an Ontological Essence of Life?

[Stigweard]

[Apech]

I think we have to be very careful not to get too "esoteric" when defining the Taoist heaven. The character is tiān 天, and is quite literally the space 一 above men 大, or the sky. So the way of heaven, Tiandao, is the movements of the stars, planets, sun, moon, and other celestial bodies.

 

 

I was thinking more of this:

 

The foundation of Taoist theory stands on three pillars: heaven, earth, and man. From heaven and earth all things are created. Heaven is pure yang energy, while earth is pure yin energy. It can be concluded that humankind is a combination of the two pure energies. The result of the combination of heaven and earth is a duplicitous soul: hun and po.

 

Link

 

 

 

It is a modern distinction we make between Heaven as a realm of pure yang energy and the sky ... to the ancients they are the same (I can quote from other cultures to back this up).

Edited July 16, 2010 by apepch7

[Vajrahridaya]

I was thinking more of this:

 

 

 

It is a modern distinction we make between Heaven as a realm of pure yang energy and the sky ... to the ancients they are the same (I can quote from other cultures to back this up).

 

The foundation of Taoist theory stands on three pillars: heaven, earth, and man. From heaven and earth all things are created. Heaven is pure yang energy, while earth is pure yin energy. It can be concluded that humankind is a combination of the two pure energies. The result of the combination of heaven and earth is a duplicitous soul: hun and po.

 

Link

 

Huh! This sounds kind of like Indian Tantra of Ida and Pingala... Ida being Sun or projective, male energy that expands and Pingala being open and receptive female energy that collects. Both being microscopically located within the shashumna or central channel of an individual being. Us being an infinitesimal elaboration of the macrocosm.

 

EDIT: This also sounds like Samkhya philosophy of Indian origin labeling Prakriti and Purusha as the essences of matter and spirit or the dark receptive that is prakriti the origin of density and purusha which is the spirit or light of consciousness, kind of like yin and yang.

 

The light of consciousness manifesting through the darkness of material potentiality of dark matter into manifestation within and as the field of multiplicity.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Apech]

Huh! This sounds kind of like Indian Tantra of Ida and Pingala... Ida being Sun or projective, male energy that expands and Pingala being open and receptive female energy that collects. Both being microscopically located within the shashumna or central channel of an individual being. Us being an infinitesimal elaboration of the macrocosm.

 

EDIT: This also sounds like Samkhya philosophy of Indian origin labeling Prakriti and Purusha as the essences of matter and spirit or the dark receptive that is prakriti the origin of density and purusha which is the spirit or light of consciousness, kind of like yin and yang.

 

The light of consciousness manifesting through the darkness of material potentiality of dark matter into manifestation within and as the field of multiplicity.

 

Earth conforms to Heaven. Heaven conforms to Tao and Tao conforms to its own nature.

 

Thus Earth and Heaven are partial views.

 

Sounding like another system is not the issue here.

 

The issue is this "Is Tao the Ontological Essence of Life".

 

Answer ... no! But Heaven could be seen this way.

[Stigweard]

I was thinking more of this:

 

 

 

It is a modern distinction we make between Heaven as a realm of pure yang energy and the sky ... to the ancients they are the same (I can quote from other cultures to back this up).

Sure ... and it's a good progression along your line of thinking that, whilst Tao is not an ontological essence, we can perhaps say that Heaven is.

 

"Heaven as a realm of pure yang energy" ... are we talking about a realm as in a plane of existence here? I mean we can be very mundane here and say that the "pure yang energy" is the cosmic light of the stars, planets, sun, moon, and other celestial bodies, and the Taoist tradition is rich with practices and ceremonies that "draw down" and attune to such energies. Or are we wanting to discuss "higher" or "more subtle" realms of manifestation that we could call Heavenly Realms??

[Marblehead]

I also do not know how influenced by the Buddhas teachings these Taoists are??

 

Nor how much the Buddha was influenced by Taoist thought before it was actually called Taoism.

 

I think a fair arguement could be made that the Buddha was influenced by Hindu and Taoist thought.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

I think we have to be very careful not to get too "esoteric" when defining the Taoist heaven. The character is tiān 天, and is quite literally the space 一 above men 大, or the sky. So the way of heaven, Tiandao, is the movements of the stars, planets, sun, moon, and other celestial bodies.

 

 

Thank you for that. Your words always do a much better job at expressing these concepts than mine do.

 

Peace & Love!

[Brian]

...

[Brian]

...

[Apech]

Sure ... and it's a good progression along your line of thinking that, whilst Tao is not an ontological essence, we can perhaps say that Heaven is.

 

"Heaven as a realm of pure yang energy" ... are we talking about a realm as in a plane of existence here? I mean we can be very mundane here and say that the "pure yang energy" is the cosmic light of the stars, planets, sun, moon, and other celestial bodies, and the Taoist tradition is rich with practices and ceremonies that "draw down" and attune to such energies. Or are we wanting to discuss "higher" or "more subtle" realms of manifestation that we could call Heavenly Realms??

 

Stig,

 

I am not one for abstraction and I think the word Heaven and ideas like 'subtle realms' tend towards the supernatural if you see what I mean. However it is quite legitimate to distinguish between 'gross' and 'subtle' and its all about perspective really I think.

 

The easiest way for me to think about all this is to consider 'energy'. Even though we can't quite say what that is of course - but physics gives us an 'in' in the sense of light or electricity - in other words a subtle unseen force - we see its effects but not it itself. Energy can exist in both a highly attenuated form (i.e stretched out fine energies which permeate all space) and also in the grossest physical manifestation e.g. a lump of granite.

 

I would equate the most subtle form of energy with Heaven - to put it in a nut shell.

[ralis]

Einstein spent the entire later part of his career attempting to develop a cogent theory to link gravity and electromagnetism (orquantum electrodynamics, to be more precise) -- electricity, magnetism and both the strong & weak nuclear forces being integrated, gravity remained separate. He longed for a Grand Universal Theory but really never made much progress.

 

The "compression" you refer to above can't be by gravity because, on the scale we are talking about, gravitation's attractive force is hugely overpowered by the repulsive forces of QED, and also because gravity requires mass (in order for the mass to warp space-time) but the mass doesn't exist without gravity (by the aproach you presented above), creating a circular argument that leads to neither mass nor gravity. It is true that gravity effects light and also true that light has an effective mass but neither of these details help you out of the bind.

 

Also, "light" may not be the proper term as this almost universally refers to a particular manifestation or phenomenon -- specifically, electromagnetic radiation. I would suggest that you consider the term "energy" instead of "light."

 

While it may seem otherwise, I agree with your post almost entirely! I think the apparent universe is formed of a fundamental energy (which I envision as "the Tao") and I think that "opening the third eye" is something along the lines of teaching the brain to act as an antenna sensitive to that energy. This post was just me being pedantic...

 

 

Thanks for a more precise explanation!

 

 

ralis

[ralis]

In addition to the upper dantien (3rd. eye) the heart center may have a part in experiencing these realms of light.

 

I will explain more later when I have time.

 

 

ralis

[Birch]

Cool, when do we get to the tri-brain theory (head, heart, gut)?

[C T]

All I have read is that the 3rd eye opens at some point and the celestial realms are seen. This aspect is not discussed much.

 

ralis

Have you any personal experience to add on to what you have read?

 

 

 

My take on the 3rd eye: There are 3 levels of working with opening the 3rd eye.

 

On the physical plane, the opening has to do with how one works with methodologies, beginning with the intuitive feeling, like a pang sort of, that there is something not too satisfying with normal, mundane activities - almost like one does not feel complete somehow, and through this yearning, begins the quest to embark on a journey of spiritual discovery.

 

This is like a familiarization stage, whereby one 'assumes' that one is opening one's third eye to 'see' more than what is already within one's unsatisfactory existence.

 

On the spiritual plane, the opening has to do with the onset of intuitive wisdom. Working with the various methods, old habitual tendencies fall away to be replaced by more refined views of how reality unfolds. The agitations often tied to the normal senses gradually subsides, giving rise to a new mode of awareness beyond the restrictions of the physical senses.

 

This is like a stage of stabilization, whereby the regenerative processes kicks in, and transformation is no longer restricted to intentional applications of methods and deliberate conceptualizations of 'higher' realms - one begins to 'see' and 'feel' more and more, to perceive things in a more connected way, giving rise to transcendent (beyond the mortal senses) insights.

 

And finally on the plane of the absolute, the opening becomes ingrained and spontaneous. One perceives the unity of all things, and merges with this unity. The sense of separation drops away. No longer restricted, one becomes free of all conceptual views, and rises above even the subtlest notions of wisdom and methods - no longer dependent on any external paths or methods.

 

This is the stage of union, where the physical and the spiritual are felt deeply to be inseparable. Although not a definite must, there will be mystical unfoldings ('lightness') naturally occurring when this level of opening has been accessed. Gradually one let be all gross physical perceptions, without being distracted by their incessant, illusory and captivating displays, and simply rests in the infinite processes of the continuum, mostly without much cares in mundane activities.

 

Any Taoist practitioners relate to this in a similar vein?

 

 

 

my 2 coins...

Edited July 16, 2010 by CowTao

[Marblehead]

 

Any Taoist practitioners relate to this in a similar vein?

 

my 2 coins...

 

Yes CowTao. That is a process that I believe would apply to the attainment of the state of 'wu'. Then returning to 'the real world' one could easily attain the state of 'wu wei'.

 

Peace & Love!

[Starjumper]

Any Taoist practitioners relate to this in a similar vein?

 

That all sounds pretty good except I would modify the 'absolute' part a little (many shades of gray are involved in the absolute =), plus the word absolute itself does not sit well. In my system we work on the third eye quite a lot.

 

I haven't read any of the previous pages for a few days, thank god.

[Starjumper]

No, and remember that when you see the hole you are about to fall into, you asked for it.

 

There is no hole, there is only potential... endless, from the highest to the high and the lowest of the low.

 

Know more, directly... of what you are speaking about.

 

On second thought, I won't bother pointing out the Buddhist hole you've fallen into. Rather , we'll keep you in the dark. Where you are now, like the frog at the bottom of the well, is just right for you.

[gendao]

[ralis]

That all sounds pretty good except I would modify the 'absolute' part a little (many shades of gray are involved in the absolute =), plus the word absolute itself does not sit well. In my system we work on the third eye quite a lot.

 

I haven't read any of the previous pages for a few days, thank god.

 

What approach do you take for the 3rd. eye opening? Good point about the absolute!

 

 

ralis

[Starjumper]

What approach do you take for the 3rd. eye opening?

 

Well it's not just an approach, it's a whole bunch of things we do, everything I guess, except for visualization. Many movement based exercises which encourage flows in all directions, along with gathering, expanding outwards, condensing, chi packing, and other stuff; plus we work on it with many different kinds of sitting and standing meditations. They are all posture based, many contain some movement, and sometimes use focus(but we NEVER direct energy flows with our minds). And that's on just for one point, we do the same thing to the whole body since balance is important, over and over and over. The path of the sorcerer includes a lot of boring repetitive exercise (which also builds muscle).

Edited July 16, 2010 by Starjumper7

[Starjumper]

By the way, the above was a description of REAL Nei kung.

 

The path of the sorcerer includes a lot of boring repetitive exercise.

 

And that is why it is said that the most powerful Taoist systems contain ten thousand techniques.

 

... and other stuff ...

 

I left out - we also use sound.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Starjumper7

[Starjumper]

Oops, I also left out that we use various forms of walking, primarily circle walking. With circle walking you can go far without going so far.

[ralis]

Oops, I also left out that we use various forms of walking, primarily circle walking. With circle walking you can go far without going so far.

 

Is there a name for this particular system?

 

 

ralis

[Starjumper]

Is there a name for this particular system?

Yes (sigh), I guess you didn't read the other thread? Qi is not energy Along with a bit of description I posted a link to it in post #208, follow the links. It is also described somewhat in post #206 and some other posts (some in other threads).

[Marblehead]

Well, it appears that this thread has gone full circle and a few side paths as well.

 

Thanks for the inspiration, Stig, for a nice discussion of a Taoist concept.

 

So Tao is everything and every non-thing but yet it is no single thing in and of itself.

 

I have yet to see and understand (except in various mythologies) a good definition of a 'first cause'.

 

But that really doesn't matter in regard to how we are going to live our life.

 

I think the big question is, "Are we going to be content with the way we have lived our life when it is our time to die?"

 

I think that if we follow the Way of Tao we will have that contentment.

 

Peace & Love!