Is Tao an Ontological Essence of Life?

[Apech]

Talk about changing the meaning!

 

Wang's translation:

 

Tao Follows Tzujan.

 

Lin's:

 

Tao follows the laws of nature.

 

Henricks':

 

And the Way models itself on that which is so on its own.

 

I still prefer Wang's translation. Short and simple (given the definition of Tzujan).

 

Peace & Love!

 

This is kind of what I getting at above. Why do you prefer that translation? Does the original mention tzujan? I can't work it out from Riyue's link. I could say I prefer:

 

Man follows Earth.

Earth follows heaven.

Heaven follows the Tao.

Tao follows what is natural.

 

Feng and English

 

'What is natural' is not the same as Nature. So what did Lao Tzu mean by this?

 

In fact I am willing to bet that in anyone's definition of Nature there are all sorts of ideas and assumptions which amount to beliefs. When a scientist looks through a telescope at the distant galaxies he 'believes' he can understand them - if he thought that he couldn't then he wouldn't even look.

 

I know we have had this discussion before so that's it for now ...

[Stigweard]

[Marblehead]

Hi Apepch7,

 

Don't know if you remember but shortly after Tzujanli joined the forum I asked him what his name meant. I wanted to see if his understanding of the word 'Tzujan' was similar to mine. I had been using the word for a number of years before he joined this forum.

 

His reply suggested an almost identical understanding.

 

I have no idea where Dr. Wang came up with the word in his translation. However,

 

Tzujan is the Wade-Giles romanization of Ziran. This is according to the article here:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/612116/ziran

 

This would be consistent with what Stig just posted.

 

From the way Dr. Wang defined Tzujan I can understand why most translators do not use the word. It is so much more than just 'self so' or 'what is natural'.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Hi Stig,

 

Very nice work above! Tahnks!!!

 

Peace & Love!

 

Edit to add:

 

And thanks to Riyue for bringing this up for discussion.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Marblehead

[Vajrahridaya]

He has probably turned a lot of people off his form of Buddhism. I know some Buddhists personally, away from these online debates, and they would NEVER knock anyone's practice or claim superiority over another.

 

Some have been turned on to it from my posts. Thought you should know how subjective your interpretation of me is.

 

For your own sake of course.

[Vajrahridaya]

[Riyue]

Talk about changing the meaning!

 

Wang's translation:

 

Tao Follows Tzujan.

 

....

I still prefer Wang's translation. Short and simple (given the definition of Tzujan).

 

Peace & Love!

 

This sentence demonstrates - as i think - in an interesting way - the difference between thinking in english language and thinking in chinese language.

Each picture in 道 法自然 points to an idea of 道 and the integration gives a fine idea about 道.

I think that the english translation -Dao follows "ziran"- changes this idea.

 

The chinese expresses

道 is mirrored in 法 - 道 is mirrored in 自 - 道 is mirrored in 自然

-

"Dao follows ziran" - expresses somehow - that nature is superior to dao -

 

The chinese says: ziran is another description - from another point of view - for 道.

In chinese there is integration--- in english we have a try of analyzing.

[Marblehead]

This sentence demonstrates - as i think - in an interesting way - the difference between thinking in english language and thinking in chinese language.

Each picture in 道 法自然 points to an idea of 道 and the integration gives a fine idea about 道.

I think that the english translation -Dao follows "ziran"- changes this idea.

 

The chinese expresses

道 is mirrored in 法 - 道 is mirrored in 自 - 道 is mirrored in 自然

-

"Dao follows ziran" - expresses somehow - that nature is superior to dao -

 

The chinese says: ziran is another description - from another point of view - for 道.

In chinese there is integration--- in english we have a try of analyzing.

 

Excellent point.

 

I think it is only fair, at this point, to present Dr. Wang's definition of Tzujan as used in his translation of the TTC:

 

Tzu-Jan is commonly translated as "nature". It is, however, not the nature of the physical world, but is the spiritual naturalness. Tzu-Jan is the primordial unperturbed process of self-development. It is the state of Oneness. Self-So. Spontaneity. Naturally so. With no apparent reason.

 

So Tzu-Jan is not some 'thing' that Tao is following but rather Tao is following it own inclination for self-development. There is no reason for it doing so - it just is. Self-so.

 

So I suppose the it could be said that Tao follows it own naturalness. Similarly Lao Tzu tells us to follow our own naturalness. (Our naturalness is based on living on earth therefore it is said that man follows earth. But basically we are following our inclination for self-development.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

Marblehead, Stig and Riyue,

 

Thank you all so much! This is excellent stuff. I wouldn't quite say its clear to me now but its definitely getting clearer.

 

I remember when I was 17/18 reading this section of Lao Tzu (25) and being hit by how perfect and profound it was. I didn't really understand it of course but that feeling was there. (Maybe a belief? ha ha).

[Marblehead]

I remember when I was 17/18 reading this section of Lao Tzu (25) and being hit by how perfect and profound it was. I didn't really understand it of course but that feeling was there. (Maybe a belief? ha ha).

 

Yeah, I think your example is what I refer to as intuition. It is just so right even though we do not understand why it is right. I don't think I would classify this as a belief even though I couldn't argue against someone doing so.

 

Peace & Love!

[ralis]

I fully agree! If I can be proven wrong through valid argument that makes sense on an experiential level to me, I will concede... I can't say that it won't hurt, as it might. I'm not a Buddha. I have been impressed by some peoples takes on the Tao in here as well, but only in as close it comes to Buddhist insight. Which for me, is very impressive as the opposite would be true of a Taoist I would think?

 

I have proven you wrong many times! Therefor give up the preaching!

 

 

ralis

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Some have been turned on to it from my posts. Thought you should know how subjective your interpretation of me is.

 

For your own sake of course.

 

Ah, the heights of Buddhist twirpitude!

[Vajrahridaya]

I have proven you wrong many times! Therefor give up the preaching!

 

 

ralis

 

Funny... I thought I proved you wrong! Ah... the merry-go-round of subjective relativity!

[Marblehead]

... the merry-go-round of subjective relativity!

 

Merry-go-round is acceptable. Circle jerking is not.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

Merry-go-round is acceptable. Circle jerking is not.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Yes, I think I'll just stop replying to ralis, songs and the like and maybe things will get calmer. I enjoy our debates though and have learned about Taoism more from you Stig and Apepch7 and have come to many agreements as well with Taoist philosophy as a result. Even though you seemed to jump on the bandwagon a bit Marblehead... Naughty!

[Tao99]

Yes, I think I'll just stop replying to ralis, songs and the like and maybe things will get calmer. I enjoy our debates though and have learned about Taoism more from you Stig and Apepch7 and have come to many agreements as well with Taoist philosophy as a result. Even though you seemed to jump on the bandwagon a bit Marblehead... Naughty!

 

Shame on you Marblehead! Disagreeing with V!! No love for you!!!

 

ALL WHO DISAGREE WILL BE SHUNNED!!!! LOL

Edited July 21, 2010 by Tao99

[ralis]

Yes, I think I'll just stop replying to ralis, songs and the like and maybe things will get calmer. I enjoy our debates though and have learned about Taoism more from you Stig and Apepch7 and have come to many agreements as well with Taoist philosophy as a result. Even though you seemed to jump on the bandwagon a bit Marblehead... Naughty!

 

You can't deal with your Buddhist belief system being scrutinized?

 

 

ralis

Edited July 21, 2010 by ralis

[Marblehead]

Even though you seemed to jump on the bandwagon a bit Marblehead... Naughty!

 

 

Shame on you Marblehead! Disagreeing with V!! No love for you!!!

 

ALL WHO DISAGREE WILL BE SHUNNED!!!! LOL

 

Hehehe. Yeah. Shame on me. You guys are funny.

 

Yes VJ, I was picking on you. But it was not for a selfish purpose, there was a positive goal for the board I wished to accomplish.

 

When it is all over I will apologize to all those I owe an apology to but until then I will do what I need do.

 

Peace & Love!

[Stigweard]

[JustARandomPanda]

[Stigweard]

I have been curious about this exact subject for the past few weeks. Actually longer than that. I have been wondering exactly how a person would act if they simply didn't have opinions or thoughts throughout the day but rather just watched.

 

It's not easy that's for sure. Hence the exercises to still one's mind. Once my mind is stilled (granted not for long but I can sometimes manage it for a minute or so) I find the observing of everything around me comes naturally. And with it comes natural action. I can still drive a car just fine with a stilled mind. Is that being ziran? Maybe.

 

[Marblehead]

I have really benefited from this current line of investigation ... sincere thanks.

 

Nice post Stig.

 

But this brings forward the question, "But if ziran is being natural then isn't it true that even those who have lost the Way are still being natural because they are acting in accordance with what they are at this very point in time?"

 

The point I would make is that nothing unnatural can ever happen. That is, if it is impossible for a particular event to happen at this very point in time then any event that happens is a natural event. So even the lost soul is still being true to his nature even though he has lost his 'original' nature.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

I have been curious about this exact subject for the past few weeks.

 

 

Reading your post caused me to think that you were experiencing wu wei.

 

Just my thought. Nothing definative.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

I have been curious about this exact subject for the past few weeks. Actually longer than that. I have been wondering exactly how a person would act if they simply didn't have opinions or thoughts throughout the day but rather just watched.

 

It's not easy that's for sure. Hence the exercises to still one's mind. Once my mind is stilled (granted not for long but I can sometimes manage it for a minute or so) I find the observing of everything around me comes naturally. And with it comes natural action. I can still drive a car just fine with a stilled mind. Is that being ziran? Maybe.

 

Ah! Stilling one's own mind... But what about all the other minds around me incessantly chatting and projecting images?? GAAH!

 

No really, one doesn't need much conventional thought in order to function more happily in a world filled with conventionally unhappy people.

[Vajrahridaya]

Nice post Stig.

 

But this brings forward the question, "But if ziran is being natural then isn't it true that even those who have lost the Way are still being natural because they are acting in accordance with what they are at this very point in time?"

 

The point I would make is that nothing unnatural can ever happen. That is, if it is impossible for a particular event to happen at this very point in time then any event that happens is a natural event. So even the lost soul is still being true to his nature even though he has lost his 'original' nature.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Yes, you can still experience a persons enlightened nature or potential as your own actuality in perception. Therefore one can remain internally enlightened even when bombarded with the seemingly unenlightened because you are seeing the liberated nature past the appearance of bondage. As unlimited-ness acts as limited as a side effect of unlimited-ness. As Blake said, about cleaning the doors of perception and seeing the infinite nature of everything.