Is Tao an Ontological Essence of Life?

[3bob]

Well, sure. Hehehe.

 

But then the "One" became "The Many". No matter what name we put on it we will be right only some of the time.

 

And I agree, considering the process of cycles, the end is a new beginning and a new beginning is that end of what preceeded. Dependant origination? (Stop that!!!)

 

This is so for any continuum. If we start from a given point and continue in that exact same direction eventually we will end up where we started. This is sometimes called 'returning to the source'.

 

Strange though is that regardless of where we start every point is both the beginning and the end. Life is that way too - every moment is both an end of what was and the beginning of what can be.

 

Where am I?

 

Peace & Love!

 

Nice thoughts MH.

 

I'd add that all that was, is, and will be or "what can be" are already in the One. And to attain the One would be to attain a very great state, and or to have completed a vast number of steps, although not all the steps on a journey of ten thousand miles.

 

"Where am I?" Or where are we? For instance at this site we often talk about advanced and very far-out stuff, yet that is often getting way ahead of the game imo and ime!!! And to get way ahead of the game (or over extendended somewhere way out there) often results in a form of suffering related to same.

 

Om

[Marblehead]

I'd add that all that was, is, and will be or "what can be" are already in the One.

 

First part good but the colored part I always need be careful agreeing with such statements as it could lead to an understanding that I accept the concept of pre-destiny, or karma. However, your use of "what can be" leaves room for choice and potential so basically I agree.

 

And to attain the One would be to attain a very great state, and or to have completed a vast number of steps, although not all the steps on a journey of ten thousand miles.

 

Yes, to be immersed in wu is a wonderful state. Actually, I have been there totally only once as far as I can recall. And I will say this with caution: True, the journey never ends and many of the paths we walk do not reduce the distance of the ten thousand miles. But that's life and I do enjoy the side-paths on occasion in order to smell the flowers.

 

"Where am I?" Or where are we? For instance at this site we often talk about advanced and very far-out stuff, yet that is often getting way ahead of the game imo and ime!!! And to get way ahead of the game (or over extendended somewhere way out there) often results in a form of suffering related to same.

 

Om

 

Yep. Like John Lennon said (paraphrase): I tried to run before I learned to walk properly. But that too is life. Sometimes we are in such a hurry to get to where we think we should be and in reality we are exactly where we are supposed to be at any given moment in time. So what will be my next step? The beginning of a new journey of ten thousand miles.

 

And I do agree, we all too often cause much of our own suffering by trying to be someplace we are not ready to be yet. The natural processes are truely the best. And we do need follow our own nature else we will cause ourselves discontent and confusion.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

First part good but the colored part I always need be careful agreeing with such statements as it could lead to an understanding that I accept the concept of pre-destiny, or karma. However, your use of "what can be" leaves room for choice and potential so basically I agree.

 

 

 

Yes, to be immersed in wu is a wonderful state. Actually, I have been there totally only once as far as I can recall. And I will say this with caution: True, the journey never ends and many of the paths we walk do not reduce the distance of the ten thousand miles. But that's life and I do enjoy the side-paths on occasion in order to smell the flowers.

 

 

 

Yep. Like John Lennon said (paraphrase): I tried to run before I learned to walk properly. But that too is life. Sometimes we are in such a hurry to get to where we think we should be and in reality we are exactly where we are supposed to be at any given moment in time. So what will be my next step? The beginning of a new journey of ten thousand miles.

 

And I do agree, we all too often cause much of our own suffering by trying to be someplace we are not ready to be yet. The natural processes are truely the best. And we do need follow our own nature else we will cause ourselves discontent and confusion.

 

Peace & Love!

 

You're a good sport MH

 

Hmmm, The One contains all the destinies of the many, thus the many can choose only within the One. Yet further, "Only Nothing can enter no-space" (TTC 43)

 

Om

[Marblehead]

You're a good sport MH

 

I try to be. Afterall, my opinion is only one of 6.7 billion today so it's really not all that big a thing.

And I must say that you too have a pretty good amount of flexibility in your beliefs.

 

Hmmm, The One contains all the destinies of the many, thus the many can choose only within the One. Yet further, "Only Nothing can enter no-space" (TTC 43)

 

Om

 

But wait. (Hehehe. I just had to say that.)

 

Yes, we are limited by only what is within the realm of choices. However, Tao is dynamic. What is impossible today may very well be possible tomorrow so in a sense the possibilities of destinies is unlimited.

 

That last quote reminded me of the concept of 'Absolute Nothingness'. The non-place where not even nothing exists. The (non)place beyond space/time.

 

BTW I think we are doing a wonderful job at keeping this thread alive.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

That last quote as you mention, sounds to me like part of what Stig may be tyring to get at using (more or less) rhetorical methods?

 

Imagine "The One" as already containing all time(s) and all space(s) and thus also all of the apparently future possibilities right-now. (or already in The One)

 

Om Shanti

[Marblehead]

That last quote as you mention, sounds to me like part of what Stig may be tyring to get at using (more or less) rhetorical methods?

 

Imagine "The One" as already containing all time(s) and all space(s) and thus also all of the apparently future possibilities right-now. (or already in The One)

 

Om Shanti

 

Yes, every now and then Stig gets on that horse of his and tests his thought processes with us.

 

I still prefer the concept of a dynamic Tao rather than a "Oneness" that already contains all possibilities and is static.

 

And then, if we consider the concept that there are multiple physical universes, it is likely that each universe has its own set of possibilities. But all other potential universes would still be within the realm of Tao (separated by Absolute Nothingness?).

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Yes, every now and then Stig gets on that horse of his and tests his thought processes with us.

 

I still prefer the concept of a dynamic Tao rather than a "Oneness" that already contains all possibilities and is static.

 

And then, if we consider the concept that there are multiple physical universes, it is likely that each universe has its own set of possibilities. But all other potential universes would still be within the realm of Tao (separated by Absolute Nothingness?).

 

Peace & Love!

 

I wouldn't say "The One" is static in the way you apparently imply above... for the One is born of the Tao, and that is also a type of mystery, although in my interpretation not the same Mystery as the un-nameable Tao. Anyway, going by the T.T.C. "The Two" and "The Three" are born (so to speak) after the One, thus to me the teaching alludes to further processes in action (or births if you will) of the Two and The Three and then on to the Ten Thousand as being the when-and-where all of these grand dynamics and or nameable possibilities as aspects of Tao become far more discernable; with an additional idea along these lines that if the center of the wheel was not, then there would be no place for the spokes to be connected.

 

All the multi-verses are also under the One, or the One would not really be the One.

 

Om

[Marblehead]

I wouldn't say "The One" is static in the way you apparently imply above... for the One is born of the Tao, and that is also a type of mystery, although in my interpretation not the same Mystery as the un-nameable Tao. Anyway, going by the T.T.C. "The Two" and "The Three" are born (so to speak) after the One, thus to me the teaching alludes to further processes in action (or births if you will) of the Two and The Three and then on to the Ten Thousand as being the when-and-where all of these grand dynamics and or nameable possibilities as aspects of Tao become far more discernable; with an additional idea along these lines that if the center of the wheel was not, then there would be no place for the spokes to be connected.

 

All the multi-verses are also under the One, or the One would not really be the One.

 

Om

 

Yeah, I think we have come to the point where we are just discussing the words we use to explain what really cannot be explained. We both have different backgrounds so our mind can only relate in accord with our base of knowledge and experiences.

 

Yes, the hub of a wheel is a good example of what you were saying. But we need be careful so that we do not place more importance on the hub than we do on the rest of the components of the wheel.

 

And then, actuall, the order in which the current universe came into being isn't all that important, all things considered. Whatever any one of us believes isn't going to change anything.

 

I, personally, think it is more important to talk about the Te of Tao, that is, the Virtue of the Way. Because really, it is my life and your life that we are talking about here. Were either of us not here we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

 

Peace & Love!

[Stigweard]

Hello Stig,

 

Some lines below from the Isa Upanishad that you may find of interest in relation to your post...?

 

"...9. Into a blind darkness they enter who are devoted to ignorance (rituals); but into a greater darkness they enter who engage in knowledge of a deity alone.

 

10. One thing, they say, is obtained from knowledge; another, they say, from ignorance. Thus we have heard from the wise who have taught us this.

 

11. He who is aware that both knowledge and ignorance should be pursued together, overcomes death through ignorance and obtains immortality through knowledge.

 

12. Into a blind darkness they enter who worship only the unmanifested prakriti; but into a greater darkness they enter who worship the manifested Hiranyagarbha.

 

13. One thing, they say, is obtained from the worship of the manifested; another, they say, from the worship of the unmanifested. Thus we have heard from the wise who taught us this.

 

14. He who knows that both the unmanifested prakriti and the manifested Hiranyagarbha should be worshipped together, overcomes death by the worship of Hiranyagarbha and obtains immortality through devotion to prakriti..."

 

And another saying along these lines:

 

From Yutang Lin,

 

"Teaching of "Non-form" indicates non-attachment to form.

Misinterpreted, it is adopted as holding to absence of form.

Abiding in no forms at all, one falls into the abyss of void.

Only in no grasping to form or non-form lies true liberation."

 

Om

Really appreciate you posting this ... Thank you :-)

[3bob]

Really appreciate you posting this ... Thank you :-)

 

...and thanks for starting the string and also posting many replies.

[Marblehead]

Hugs to both of you.

 

Now lets get back to the topic. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Hugs to both of you.

 

Now lets get back to the topic. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

 

"The topic"? Who really needs topics if you're given and give hugs... hehehe

[Marblehead]

"The topic"? Who really needs topics if you're given and give hugs... hehehe

 

Yeah, I know. We have pretty much used up this topic. I hope Stig brings forward another one pretty soon.

 

And you are right. Words are not necessary when hugs are going around.

 

Peace & Love!

[rookie]

Well since this is already used up, LOL, I wish this was the second post.

And please take this the right way, but.......

 

Can someone add the first couple of lines of TTC?

[Stigweard]

[Marblehead]

 

Way can Way,

Not constant Way.

Name can name,

Not constant Name.

 

 

Okay. So now we need a really nice and accurate interpretation of that.

 

And, of course, this is where the problems begin. There will likely be as many different interpretations as there are people who interpret the four lines. And it is here where the discussions and arguements begin.

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

Hi,

 

Just back from broadband free outback to find this thread still mouldering on. I was caught by that ziran = smell of roast dog thing ... but then it seemed to get lost in pro/anti buddhist stuff (yawn) and other things.

 

Hot dog anyone?

[Marblehead]

Hi,

 

Just back from broadband free outback to find this thread still mouldering on. I was caught by that ziran = smell of roast dog thing ... but then it seemed to get lost in pro/anti buddhist stuff (yawn) and other things.

 

Hot dog anyone?

 

Well, nice having you back. Yes, as long as there is at least one person to talk with about the concept I will do my best to keep the thread alive.

 

And no thanks on your hot dog. But then, if I ever got hungry enough, well ...

 

Peace & Love!