Is Tao an Ontological Essence of Life?

[Vajrahridaya]

You do realize that I do not accept any of that as being valid for a Taoist, don't you?

 

And to suggest that some 'other thing' exists outside of singularity negates the entire concept of singularity.

 

We shouldn't talk about religion here but rather just stick with philosophy. Religion always makes a mess of things.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I'm not saying there is anything outside of singularity, just that singularity itself is a mis-cognition of phenomena. There is no "oneness", just the experience of oneness which arises dependent upon view. This is philosophy, just not Taoist.

[Birch]

If what I've been reading recently about "singularity" is real, then I wouldn't want to go there

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

So man follows earth,

Earth follows heaven,

Heaven follows Tao,

And Tao follows itself (its own nature).

 

 

 

 

So this is talking about independent origination, or self origination.

[Vajrahridaya]

If what I've been reading recently about "singularity" is real, then I wouldn't want to go there

 

It's actually very blissful , but would not be considered complete insight for a Buddha.

[voidisyinyang]

It's actually very blissful , but would not be considered complete insight for a Buddha.

 

Yeah I mean everyone knows that the 6 levels of samadhi are just the 6 types of quarks of emptiness

 

 

They're interdependent of course.

[ralis]

Look at the first post, this was originally posted as a discussion mentioning Buddhism. Why can't you guys just argue the points, the similarities and differences without taking personal offense?

 

You are stating the Taoist position, which is fine and I'm stating the Buddhist position in a thread opened up mentioning Buddhism to begin with. As the forum says, this is a place to discuss all spiritual traditions as well as Taoism.

 

There is no need for this type of angry banter. I can be quite nice and civil, even if I disagree. Why can't you?

 

Every thread that even mentions Buddhism, you have to fly in and make certain everyone hears about dependent origination ad infinitum. Franky, I am sick of it.

 

ralis

[Marblehead]

I'm not saying there is anything outside of singularity, just that singularity itself is a mis-cognition of phenomena. There is no "oneness", just the experience of oneness which arises dependent upon view. This is philosophy, just not Taoist.

 

No, that was bullpoop. So you are going to discredit every scientist who supports the theory that singularity existed prior to the big bang? Mighty brave of you. Or perhaps this was said while you were in one of your mystical trances.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

If what I've been reading recently about "singularity" is real, then I wouldn't want to go there

 

Hehehe. No, actually we don't exist in singularity. Singularity is a very different concept than is the Taoist concept of 'wu'.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

So this is talking about independent origination, or self origination.

 

Stop that VJ!!! There is nothing in those four lines that even comes close to suggesting an origin of anything. The lines refer to only the processes of 'things' of the Totality.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

Yeah I mean everyone knows that the 6 levels of samadhi are just the 6 types of quarks of emptiness

 

 

They're interdependent of course.

 

Listening to this now... very cool! There are 8 levels of Samadhi and a 9th listed sometimes but is more of an insight transcending Samadhi which is dependent origination, transcending the previous popular notion of independent origination stating that all things come from one thing that is a primal origin, or source of all things. So, this is where Buddhism departs from other traditions.

 

This youtube video is interesting. The thing is, is that outer scientific investigation will be endless due to the fact of infinite regress and infinite universes, as this universe is not merely based upon itself, but it's based upon other universes or dimensions that are theorized about in modern quantum physics, but mostly only directly experienced by the mystics. I saw what you meant by 6 quarks though based upon viewing this video you've posted.

[Marblehead]

It's actually very blissful , but would not be considered complete insight for a Buddha.

 

WoW!!! Listen to the man. He has been to singularity!!! What a feat!!!!

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

No, that was bullpoop. So you are going to discredit every scientist who supports the theory that singularity existed prior to the big bang? Mighty brave of you. Or perhaps this was said while you were in one of your mystical trances.

 

Peace & Love!

 

No, there was singularity, yes of course, but Buddhism explains how this occurs based upon the previous universe. It's called the pralaya in sanskrit when the quieting of the different elements of manifesting occurs at the end of a particular universe. It is a real phenomena, just not independently originated. Yes... this is what I'm saying. Just that this can be experienced directly through meditation as oneness when one goes deep into the unconscious past matter as it is experienced through the 5 senses. Deep within where matter and consciousness connect on a deeper paradigm. But, I'm saying that this singularity is merely suppressed potential, it is the way Samsara or universal cycling and re-cycling works, but cutting through this singularity is the special insight of dependent origination.

[Vajrahridaya]

WoW!!! Listen to the man. He has been to singularity!!! What a feat!!!!

 

Peace & Love!

 

Yes, and so have you! It's just a matter of remembering.

[Vajrahridaya]

Stop that VJ!!! There is nothing in those four lines that even comes close to suggesting an origin of anything. The lines refer to only the processes of 'things' of the Totality.

 

Peace & Love!

 

But the statement you quoted is saying that the heavens and Earth occur due to the Tao, but the Tao is self occurring, or self perpetuating? I'm just trying to understand Marblehead what you are getting at.

 

Ok, so everything moves due to the Taos will of movement?

[Birch]

"Singularity is a very different concept than is the Taoist concept of 'wu'."

 

Exactamente Monseigneur Marblehead.

 

Thanks Drew for all those levels of stuff. I will check it out.

[Birch]

I guess I ought to add that the "singularity" I am referring to is the hypothetical bone-crushing, "annihilating-human" whatjamecallit found (potentially) in the (hypothetical) centre of black holes.

I only read about it and I haven't been there...

[voidisyinyang]

"Singularity is a very different concept than is the Taoist concept of 'wu'."

 

Exactamente Monseigneur Marblehead.

 

Thanks Drew for all those levels of stuff. I will check it out.

 

 

Oh yeah and there's a new Symphony of Science music vid!!

[Apech]

Yup I am very good with this line of thinking. And I agree with your observation of sand = Earth, sound = Heaven and sound draws its nature from the nature of Tao.

 

Taoists knew that the best they could do is to map out the emanations or patternings of Universal manifestations but the mysterious "way" that "gives birth" to these emanations is just that: "mysterious".

 

Consider again the sixty phases of the Ten Celestial Stems and Twelve Terrestrial Branches:

 

 

It is important to note that this is not a linear expression. It's not necessarily that the primal origin of Tao was 50 gazillion years ago and "out there", and in all has flowed out from "there" in a linear timeline. That symbolic representation is ever-present, here and now.

 

This diagram also reveals one of the essential Taoist observations. All of the changing phenomena seemed to follow a very particular pattern of emergence and return. Spirals within spirals of incessant phase-changes; phase-changes that repeated themselves over and over in a predictable and measurable manner.

 

In fact, as the diagram shows, these phase-changes seemed to "obit" around a point of singularity. Heaven and Earth appeared to have a nucleus of orientation.

 

So we see that we can describe and measure the emanations or expressions of the Universal subtle law but this subtle essence/principle/law or "Way" will forever elude our conceptualizations.

 

Stig,

 

Beautiful really. No not you! The pattern and your explanation. (lol).

 

Nature is like this I think. It has simple mathematical relationships (like fibbonacci (sp?) and the laws of harmonics) and yet we experience it as a chaotic and full of unique things (e.g. every snow drop or grain of sand). Is this Heaven and Earth in evidence? In any case it is all evidence of Tao, the way following its own nature (or Nature).

 

PS. Everyone else (nearly) will you please stop bickering about Buddhism (for or against) - I've read some really dumb posts above - its a real turn off.

 

Cheers

 

John

[3bob]

Holy Cow

[Apech]

But the statement you quoted is saying that the heavens and Earth occur due to the Tao, but the Tao is self occurring, or self perpetuating? I'm just trying to understand Marblehead what you are getting at.

 

Ok, so everything moves due to the Taos will of movement?

 

Vaji,

 

If the Tao had a will of movement, how would it ever stop? If it has no will of movement how would it ever start? Or something like that.

 

You seem to want the Tao to be a primary cause, like God. Perhaps you need to deconstruct the idea of an origin.(?)

 

Cheers

 

John

[ralis]

Vaji,

 

If the Tao had a will of movement, how would it ever stop? If it has no will of movement how would it ever start? Or something like that.

 

You seem to want the Tao to be a primary cause, like God. Perhaps you need to deconstruct the idea of an origin.(?)

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

He wants the Tao to be a primary cause so he can refute it.

 

 

ralis

[Marblehead]

No, there was singularity, yes of course, but Buddhism explains how this occurs based upon the previous universe. It's called the pralaya in sanskrit when the quieting of the different elements of manifesting occurs at the end of a particular universe. It is a real phenomena, just not independently originated. Yes... this is what I'm saying. Just that this can be experienced directly through meditation as oneness when one goes deep into the unconscious past matter as it is experienced through the 5 senses. Deep within where matter and consciousness connect on a deeper paradigm. But, I'm saying that this singularity is merely suppressed potential, it is the way Samsara or universal cycling and re-cycling works, but cutting through this singularity is the special insight of dependent origination.

 

Okay. Now this post is acceptable because you started it out with: Buddhism explains ...

 

And although I will not question the teaching itself I will say, and with reason, that I, Marblehead, do not accept it as being a valid belief. I do not accept that thought that any consciousness can be carried over from one universe to another. Informaion is a different concept from consciousness. I do not have an opinion as to whether or not information can be carried over.

 

Just a point of comment, when we go deep into concepts we oftentime begin imagining things that really do not exist either in the physical or the non-physical.

 

Special insight of dependant drigination, I think is being misrepresented in your Buddhist view. Now understand, and yes, I am repeating myself, I do not know enough abour Buddhism to argue any concepts effeciently but I will deny anything that does not contain at least a little bit of logic.

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

He wants the Tao to be a primary cause so he can refute it.

 

 

ralis

 

Yes ... but some of the texts do suggest this interpretation which makes the refutation difficult. As I think I put somewhere above dependent origination is an anti-dote to thinking about primary causes etc. ... if you don't have those ideas you don't need the anti-dote.

[Vajrahridaya]

Vaji,

 

If the Tao had a will of movement, how would it ever stop? If it has no will of movement how would it ever start? Or something like that.

 

You seem to want the Tao to be a primary cause, like God. Perhaps you need to deconstruct the idea of an origin.(?)

 

Cheers

 

John

 

No, I don't want it to be anything other than what Taoists think of it to be. It seems that there are plenty of Taoists that do think of it as some sort of primary will and original cause of everything though. I do enjoy your take on it though.

 

Deconstructing the idea of an origin is exactly what the Buddha did.

[ralis]

No, I don't want it to be anything other than what Taoists think of it to be. It seems that there are plenty of Taoists that do think of it as some sort of primary will and original cause of everything though. I do enjoy your take on it though.

 

Deconstructing the idea of an origin is exactly what the Buddha did.

 

Honestly, I am not interested in hearing ad nauseum about what the Buddha did. You just can't resist preaching. Please stick to the topic. Further this thread is not about comparing and contrasting Taoism and Buddhism.

 

 

ralis

Edited July 11, 2010 by ralis