Are you meditating or are you self-hypnotizing yourself?

[Vajrahridaya]

My train of thought is visualizing = attached to a form = bad.

 

If you take a bit of time to read the quotes from the explanation of visualization meditation I posted above from the Anuttarayoga Tantra, one does need to employ the experience of mindfulness and integrate this experience with everyday waking life, which actually happens naturally if one is practicing correctly.

 

One is not being attached to the visualization as one is also employing the insight of emptiness/dependent origination.

 

 

Also with regards to one's awareness becoming more pervasive over practice time I still feel like If I am not being attentive while outside of meditation then meditation is just escapism because if you are not practicing mindfulness in the 'real world' then your enhanced awareness is anchored to your meditative state as opposed to every waking moment of life.

 

This happens naturally as during the visualization, your mind starts to see all colors and forms as the experience of meditation. This is why the visualization works, because you are turning your field of vision with colors and experience through your senses into the meditative experience. You are basically enlightening the experience of seeing and feeling, tasting and being in every day natural life.

 

This is in fact part of the contemplation employed while visualizing. To integrate all your life with the meditation deity along with the mindfulness of emptiness. So, when you get up from the creative meditation process, you are re-experiencing your world through the practice of enlightened vision.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[C T]

Yes! This is a clear answer to my suspicions. Now my question is, when a person visualizes...Whether a white skeleton or a rose for their form of meditation...are they not just neglecting the mindfulness aspect of meditation possibly leading to this "bliss" state as they used some abstract image in their mind to get their as opposed to naturally being led their through their awareness. If so It is thus I think one will never experience the purification process if they go about this way of inducing a blissful trance and/or not being mindful. My train of thought is visualizing = attached to a form = bad.

 

Also with regards to one's awareness becoming more pervasive over practice time I still feel like If I am not being attentive while outside of meditation then meditation is just escapism because if you are not practicing mindfulness in the 'real world' then your enhanced awareness is anchored to your meditative state as opposed to every waking moment of life.

 

"Sometimes, however, it doesn't quite work out that way (or I am not calm enough and know it) - so I will use self-hypnonsis based on visualization as a short-cut to help get me to a meditative state. Based on a bit of training this usually works for me within a few minutes rather than spending half an hour or more trying to appease the monkey mind."

 

I guess my question is to you is if you find yourself just in a state of calm bliss or do you find yourself paying attention to both your feeling body and thinking mind in a state of nothingness?

Hello Bird,

 

Thru acknowledging that one is not calm (or facing up to, and understanding other emotional/mental arisings) is already a big, progressive step forward for one who undertakes meditation. One of the main aims of sitting practices is to bring one to a place of being able to systematically and gently look at what is happening within one's mindspace without any sort of harsh judgements, or feeling the need to do anything in particular to reprogram one's state.

 

One aspect of Shamatha (calm abiding) is to practice to the point of retaining equanimous poise - meaning there is only 'watching' going on. We simply allow whatever arises to come, stay awhile, and then leave on their own accord, and observe this over a period of time, so that we get used to the process, with the aim of eventually rehabituating the way we view things. Once this process sets in, the discursive mind (or what you call the monkey mind) will begin to tame a little, and thoughts, which seem to be jumping all over the place before, will slowly settle, and the beauty thru this practice is that after a while we do not really have to do much to bring this about. It becomes a new habit.

 

For me, this is mindfulness. And it can carry over to the secular life as well... in fact, there will come a time when everything one does becomes a practice, a formality of grace, poise and ease - normal activities, like waking up in the morning, having breakfast, drinking tea, washing dishes etc. will begin to take on new meanings. The way we relate with others also deepen, because we can become more present for others. Our senses will sharpen, we can see things for what they are, we can listen better, feel better, taste better, and most importantly, the mind settles without any problems into its own natural state, which is one of calm abiding.

 

So meditation is not so much about creating this calmness, but to allow one to reconnect with this original state of calm, and then thru familiarization, allow this new found insight to permeate one's daily life. One Meditation Master said, "Meditation is not; getting used to is." Meaning that meditation is not what people think it is - sitting with serious faces, forcing the body into awkward positions, coercing the mind to be unnaturally altered, these are only some kind of tools - beyond this lies the true purpose, which is carry whatever mindful attention we gain thru formal practices into our everyday, mundane activities so that distractions will no longer affect us in ways that makes us want to either run away from what we perceive as problems, or unpleasant situations/people/self, and/or run after what is perceived as the opposite states. In short, one who meditates will come to a point where all forms of grasping and aversions will subside, and when they do eventually, then what remains will be simple clarity and equanimity. One becomes not so easily disturbed by emotions and whatever goes on around by simply recognizing that these, as with all things, will naturally arise and subside into the vast expanse of one's own mind, with or without our projected attachments or aversions to prompt their comings and goings. Once we can see this as fact, the tendency is that we will cease to struggle so much.

 

And this then sets the stage for wisdom insights (Vipassana) to arise without any hindrances.

(see this for Vipassana: http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1649)

 

I am not sure if this has addressed some part of your query here, Bird. I know i have not had time to think about the last question you had posed. I have to run now - late for a breakfast meeting, so will come back to it after that.

 

All the best!

Edited July 14, 2010 by CowTao

[C T]

Okay am back now... on to some other points of interest:

 

Imo, if the method one employs does not fulfill, or merge the gap between formal meditative practices and when one leaves the practice to return to daily activities, thereby enhancing one's awareness around this area, then this method, if it was that which i am using, i would drop it immediately. For me it would be an impotent method, which achieves nothing. Why do i say this? For one, it creates dependency, meaning that situations could arise where the outer perceptions of things happening around us gets so overwhelmingly heavy that sometimes we find that we just want to forget everything for awhile, wherein we then 'tune out' thru this method (whatever it may be, could be some stimulant, depressant, any activity, even some types of so-called 'meditation' that temporarily numbs the person). And this i find is not the real function of traditional meditative models taught by the more astute paths. You used the term 'anchored' which i think is most appropriate here - these 'escapist' methods does precisely that - it weighs a person down, when in fact, the real purpose should do the exact opposite. One has to be really discerning as to what methods one choose as a means to reestablish a connection with that aspect of being that is beyond dualistic notions, for if not, there could arise a time when the dependancy on the lesser and incorrect methods become chronically imbedded, thus forming yet another layer of delusion that needs extra effort to release.

 

Personally, after many years of bumming around, i have now settled upon Mindfulness/Insight Meditation as a formal practice. Sometimes different visions would come up, or different sensations can be felt, some are most blissful, others less so, while some are downright unsatisfactory, even ugly. Nowadays I tend to view these mental arisings for what they are, and simply rest in their empty, yet luminous nature, without hankering after or avoiding anything. Being not overly concerned with attaining any spectacular states or mind displays, there is simply a continuous watching brief going on. Now that this has become more pervasive in my life, there is no longer much need to set aside specific times to do much formal sitting practices anymore. When there is a sense that i am drifting, daydreaming, or becoming distracted, agitated, frustrated, angry sometimes, this very sensing awareness spontaneously bring me back to mindful attention to whatever/whoever is present in the moment. I allow the less pleasant states their space too, that is if they want to pop up and impose themselves... i dont welcome them, neither do i reject them - after a while, i can notice that they no longer want to play with me so much because by simply watching, there is no fuel to feed their energy, and they lose interest and then just dissipate on their own.

 

Hope this helps. If not, i am sure the more experienced Bums here will assist in any way they can. For example, there are many specifics mentioned by Vaj in his posts which, if one can overcome the seemingly daunting aspects or points there, are actually very precise and certainly worth considering should one decide to explore the more Buddhistic methods. If not, then beginning with basic Shamatha/Vipassana (broadly used in many mainstream traditions) is more than sufficient to set a solid, technical foundation in meditation.

 

Thank you for your query. Wish you the very best in your journey.

Edited July 14, 2010 by CowTao

[C T]

To get less theoretical, one can ascertain that a visualization meditation can be as mindful as it gets yet as unlikely to slip into self-hypnosis as it is impossible to bite your own elbow, here's a technique you might want to try:

 

lie on your back, breathe naturally, close your eyes;

visualize your big toes;

visualize a lotus flower growing out of each big toe;

a buddha is sitting in the center of each lotus flower;

visualize each buddha's big toes;

see a lotus flower grow out of each of these new buddhas big toe;

and a buddha is sitting in each;

and a lotus is growing out of every buddha's big toe;

and a buddha is sitting in the center;

etc.

 

If you can go like that for an hour and not lose track of all the toes, lotuses, and buddhas, pat yourself on your enlightened back. If you lose track within minutes, you will get a good idea of your mind's current limitations far as its "mindfulness" capabilities. Which is valuable input in and of itself.

Hi Taomeow,

 

This will take some concentration i tell ya! I just (not) made a resolution that come next year, besides doing the above, i will attempt also to visualize a buddha (plus all the other 'side' effects like big toes, a lotus out of each and so on, etc of course..ahem!) on each single petal of each and every lotus flower! Howzat?!! hehe

 

aahhh... the joys of fantasizing...

[ralis]

 

Hope this helps. If not, i am sure the more experienced Bums here will assist in any way they can. For example, there are many specifics mentioned by Vaj in his posts which, if one can overcome the seemingly daunting aspects or points there, are actually very precise and certainly worth considering should one decide to explore the more Buddhistic methods. If not, then beginning with basic Shamatha/Vipassana (broadly used in many mainstream traditions) is more than sufficient to set a solid, technical foundation in meditation.

 

Thank you for your query. Wish you the very best in your journey.

 

The challenge is to have awareness, mindfulness in every aspect of one's life after the formal practice is completed. There are myriad ways to accomplish this. However, I don't agree with Vajraji and his incessant rants here. Many excellent threads have been totally disrupted by his fundamentalist view.

 

I thought this thread was about hypnosis and trance and how that relates to meditation.

 

The main point of this topic i.e, trance and my considering the ramifications of trance is one of mass trance induction. Are practices such as chanting, meditating, reading sutras, texts etc. just a way for one to be inducted into a trance i.e, belief system? Are the realizations of such practices just a closed ended trance? Further, how does one distinguish trance from the real thing?

 

More to follow.

 

 

ralis

[Spectrum]

I have not seen the term "entrainment" used in this thread.

 

Consider emptiness the starting point of real relationship. Tune into life. Have fun be safe love people.

[Birch]

Thanks Vaj for the detailled post. Sounds like qi-gong/neidan to me ;-) Just another map.

 

I agree with the other posters that refer to the mindfulness spillover into mundane life as being a valuable goal. There's also nothing wrong IMO with taking a "void vacation" - to relax that deeply is good for me.

 

When I drop the "meaning" off everything I do, then things start to get interesting.

[C T]

 

I thought this thread was about hypnosis and trance and how that relates to meditation.

 

The main point of this topic i.e, trance

No, the topic title says, "Are you meditating or are you self-hypnotizing yourself?". Do you see the word 'trance' anywhere?

 

My posts indicates a precise response to the specific question set up by the OP.

 

More red marks for you Ralis! Your professor told me to mark your comprehension skills "FAIL"... :lol:

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

I thought this thread was about hypnosis and trance and how that relates to meditation.

 

 

You bring your bitter reactions into every thread I may appear in, instead of just putting me on ignore. It's pretty egotistical of you to subject everyone to your bitter view of me when it's not shared by everyone.

 

On a deeper note, Bird of Truth was also asking about the power of visualization meditations. I answered using my own tradition which I have knowledge and experience in.

 

Pleaes ralis, once and for all, put me on ignore. Your hate and lack of wisdom concerning religious terms and spiritual traditions doesn't need to come up every-time I post. It's like you're in a trance, induced by your own karmic view.

[Vajrahridaya]

Thanks Vaj for the detailled post. Sounds like qi-gong/neidan to me ;-) Just another map.

 

Like yoga, if the understanding of it's philosophy is in the student, then the fruit will reflect the view. If there is no understanding, then it's simply exercise. This is good for the body, but if the mind doesn't align and is thinking about how to dress and put this new yoga sized body into that new suit... the fruit reflects the view.

[Vajrahridaya]

Are practices such as chanting, meditating, reading sutras, texts etc. just a way for one to be inducted into a trance i.e, belief system? Are the realizations of such practices just a closed ended trance? Further, how does one distinguish trance from the real thing?

 

Group chanting and merging the sound of your voice with other peoples voices is a humbling practice in harmony. If the belief system is an open one and the terms being chanted are focused on both inner benefit with concise meaning and benefit for the sake of all beings, then it's a practice in realizing the connected nature of all things.

 

It's really about ones view. If ones view is bitter, then the outcome of the practice will originate dependent upon the view.

[Taomeow]

Hi Taomeow,

 

This will take some concentration i tell ya! I just (not) made a resolution that come next year, besides doing the above, i will attempt also to visualize a buddha (plus all the other 'side' effects like big toes, a lotus out of each and so on, etc of course..ahem!) on each single petal of each and every lotus flower! Howzat?!! hehe

 

aahhh... the joys of fantasizing...

 

If you count the petals on every lotus, you will know math the way those Indian out-of-nowhere no-education math geniuses do who blow Cambridge professors' minds before proceeding straight to Nobel prizes (true story, forget the names of the scientists involved). Moreover, you will know HOW they know because you yourself will have the know-how. Better than that, you will have accessed innate math, the kind trees use to calculate their multidirectional growth, balanced just so that they don't topple over. More -- you will have the sacred-geometrical store open its doors and invite you in as a valued customer to sample any and all of its delicious candies, the ones normally reserved for gods.

 

ahhh... for one summer, they were mine.

[Raymond Wolter]

If you count the petals on every lotus, you will know math the way those Indian out-of-nowhere no-education math geniuses do who blow Cambridge professors' minds before proceeding straight to Nobel prizes (true story, forget the names of the scientists involved). Moreover, you will know HOW they know because you yourself will have the know-how. Better than that, you will have accessed innate math, the kind trees use to calculate their multidirectional growth, balanced just so that they don't topple over. More -- you will have the sacred-geometrical store open its doors and invite you in as a valued customer to sample any and all of its delicious candies, the ones normally reserved for gods.

 

ahhh... for one summer, they were mine.

 

 

Okay so this is THE Taomeow I have heard so much about.

[Vajrahridaya]

If you count the petals on every lotus, you will know math the way those Indian out-of-nowhere no-education math geniuses do who blow Cambridge professors' minds before proceeding straight to Nobel prizes (true story, forget the names of the scientists involved). Moreover, you will know HOW they know because you yourself will have the know-how. Better than that, you will have accessed innate math, the kind trees use to calculate their multidirectional growth, balanced just so that they don't topple over. More -- you will have the sacred-geometrical store open its doors and invite you in as a valued customer to sample any and all of its delicious candies, the ones normally reserved for gods.

 

ahhh... for one summer, they were mine.

 

Very nice.

[Marblehead]

 

ahhh... for one summer, they were mine.

 

And you know what? If they were your once they can be yours again any time 'you' are ready. That place of inner peace and contentment is available for each and every one of us. All we need do is wantingly go there.

 

Peace & Love!