Are you meditating or are you self-hypnotizing yourself?

[Birdoftruth]

Ok I have a question for you guys. I think it is important to distinguish between meditation practices here. Here we have the practice of narrowing one's focus onto something remaining mindful until that person reaches samadhi and then it turns into insight meditation where there is emptiness (vipassana). Ok then I see stuff like Visualization based meditation where in one visualizes until they reach samadhi. Well I guess my question is how on earth does visualization 'meditation' even remotely compare to mindfulness based meditation. All I see the latter doing is just dunking someone into trance asap, and thus being a psychological tool to help calm ourselves. I can't see how this helps us on the spiritual path. How does it cultivate mindfulness and allows one to endure the purification process when essentially we ignore the top layer of our waking consciousness. On top of this is the concept of spiritual materialism (i.e. certain meditations promising psychic powers) sucking us away from digging into the core of ourselves to experience the tao. Another problem I see with this is how does visualization help listen to ourself when we are just picturing something instead of actually feeling it?

 

Thanks in advance.

[SeriesOfTubes]

For clarity's sake why not define what you mean by both meditation and hypnosis? I think it would keep the thread from going in circles.

 

I'm curious because there are as many of definitions of meditation as there are techniques and even the majority of people who are trained in hypnosis typically carry misconceptions about hypnosis and/or haven't really looked into the literature as that really isn't a prerequisite to working with it. To say hypnosis = unreal is not based in reality or scientific research. Perhaps you mean visualization induced hallucinations? or are you talking about using imagery vs not using imagery and the resulting after effects?

 

Hypnosis is a naturally occuring phenomenon, therapeutic hypnosis is actually the entrainment of complex adaptive systems of mind body communication and healing. the classical phenomenon of hypnosis may be conceptualized as extreme manifestations and or perseverations of the nearly periodic psychobiological processes that are responsive to psychosocial cues. Just having a human body means these processes of naturally occuring "hypnosis" are going to be going on whether you are meditating or not.

 

Basically what the hypnotist might call hypnotic suggestion is most likely what the chronobiologist might call the entrainment of biological processes by psychosocial cues.

 

to anyone: what is an example of a meditation without a trance process?

[mike1234]

I've found myself awaking from totally emptiness from hypnosis more times than I've had from traditional meditation. I think that it isn't a visualization vs X. Different techniques have different goals.

[Martial Development]

Consider that the people who succeed with visualization (to the extent they succeed) may not be amenable to mindfulness, and vice-versa. You have to work with what you have, and what one person considers a trivial accomplishment is a major breakthrough to another.

[de_paradise]

Ok I have a question for you guys. I think it is important to distinguish between meditation practices here. Here we have the practice of narrowing one's focus onto something remaining mindful until that person reaches samadhi and then it turns into insight meditation where there is emptiness (vipassana). Ok then I see stuff like Visualization based meditation where in one visualizes until they reach samadhi. Well I guess my question is how on earth does visualization 'meditation' even remotely compare to mindfulness based meditation. All I see the latter doing is just dunking someone into trance asap, and thus being a psychological tool to help calm ourselves. I can't see how this helps us on the spiritual path. How does it cultivate mindfulness and allows one to endure the purification process when essentially we ignore the top layer of our waking consciousness. On top of this is the concept of spiritual materialism (i.e. certain meditations promising psychic powers) sucking us away from digging into the core of ourselves to experience the tao. Another problem I see with this is how does visualization help listen to ourself when we are just picturing something instead of actually feeling it?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

guess my question is how on earth does visualization 'meditation' even remotely compare to mindfulness based meditation. All I see the latter doing is just dunking someone into trance asap, and thus being a psychological tool to help calm ourselves.

 

--no, it does more. one pointed focus on the image allows qi and the subtle body to become more active.Visualization=narrow focus. Alot of times what a non-cultivator knows as a trance is actually qi stirring strongly that it kind of disrupts the conscious mind flow. To the mundane world, a deep meditative state could be described as a trance or self-hypnosis. They are missing out.

 

Another problem I see with this is how does visualization help listen to ourself when we are just picturing something instead of actually feeling it?

 

--listening to yourself is not so important as relaxing or letting go into whatever comes up. Mindfulness of breath for example is an easier method to relax compared to visualization. Theres a trade-off, because with visualization you can do fancier things that guide the energy, but cannot with just letting go.

[C T]

In the true meditational forms, there is no loss of alertness and awareness. On the contrary, one's alertness and awareness will become more pervasive over practice time.

 

Trance is often the willing inducement of a state other than that which naturally arises. It can be implied as a form of escapism. In true meditation, one seeks to understand the underlying causes of why there is this need to escape in the first place. It could mean facing up to whatever arises squarely, without running away from unpleasantness or trying to hang on to the more pleasant, bliss-like states.

 

This forum also had a similar topic: http://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=284.0

Have a read if interested.

[Gauss]

In Falun Gong one is taught that trance makes your assistant consciousness cultivate up while you are "gone". Hence your main primordial spirit will not gain anything and your cultivation ends up in vain.

 

In FG you must be a tiny bit aware that you are practicing. But of course one should think about nothing.

[Taomeow]

In the true meditational forms, there is no loss of alertness and awareness. On the contrary, one's alertness and awareness will become more pervasive over practice time.

 

Trance is often the willing inducement of a state other than that which naturally arises. It can be implied as a form of escapism. In true meditation, one seeks to understand the underlying causes of why there is this need to escape in the first place. It could mean facing up to whatever arises squarely, without running away from unpleasantness or trying to hang on to the more pleasant, bliss-like states.

Amen to that.

 

(Now I regret I deleted my own earlier entry, which was a statement of quite similar ideas in somewhat stronger terms. I feared there'd be no takers... I keep forgetting that it's not just beginners, OCD cases, escapists, and fundamentalists who meditate... contrary to what a quick read of any meditation-infested forum may lead one to believe.)

[joeblast]

Nan, Huai Chin mentioned in Working Towards Enlightenment that "attaining states" without mindfulness are akin to a blind cat bumping into a dead rat. (I'd hope it was at least freshly dead, or even mostly dead )

[Marblehead]

I have always considered self-hypnosis and meditation to be two completely different concepts used for totally different purposes.

 

Basically, meditation is for cleansing the mind while self-hypnosis is for controlling the mind.

 

Peace & Love!

[Birch]

Hehehe - if a "self" is what I think it is then "self hypnosis" is just a reworking of it. So why not? I think that self-hypnosis leverages the ego-structure to effect (which one hopes is desirable).

 

Where meditation is concerned, I guess it depends on what kind you're referring to. There are a bunch, but just from trying a bunch there seem to be a few "families" of them:

 

- where you just sit and watch the mind/body

- where you exclude thoughts

- where you just stop thoughts

- where you bring in specific thoughts

- where you put awareness on specific euh aspects of consciousness (which I get confused with the first one BTW).

[thelerner]

I have always considered self-hypnosis and meditation to be two completely different concepts used for totally different purposes.

 

Basically, meditation is for cleansing the mind while self-hypnosis is for controlling the mind.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I don't think they're completely different. More like kissing cousins, at times one slips into the other. That said when I sit I try to stay away from trance states, pleasant though they may be.

 

I also enjoy guided meditations, but like a dessert, you shouldn't live on them solely.

 

 

Michael

[Marblehead]

I don't think they're completely different. More like kissing cousins, at times one slips into the other. That said when I sit I try to stay away from trance states, pleasant though they may be.

 

I also enjoy guided meditations, but like a dessert, you shouldn't live on them solely.

 

 

Michael

 

Hehehe. I knew I would have disagreement on that one.

 

There are so many different meditation practices and many of these practices actually do include self-hypnosis or similar techniques.

 

My statement was based solely on Philosophical Taoist meditation. I can't even consider all the other techniques because I do not have enought knowledge to even begin to form an opinion.

 

Peace & Love!

[devoid]

> Are you meditating or are you self-hypnotising yourself?

 

If I am extremely calm, yet awake enough, I will try to meditate without further ado. When I succeed in this, I get to where I wanted to go.

 

Sometimes, however, it doesn't quite work out that way (or I am not calm enough and know it) - so I will use self-hypnonsis based on visualization as a short-cut to help get me to a meditative state. Based on a bit of training this usually works for me within a few minutes rather than spending half an hour or more trying to appease the monkey mind.

 

Thus, what I am trying to say is the following: I use both means to get to get to the same end.

 

I mentioned "awake enough" because I usually meditate in the deepest way when laying down - if I am sleepy, either method will make me fall asleep in no time.

 

Some people have a tendency to succumbing to daydreaming and fantasizing if starting out with visualization. Experience gained that way can often help stimulate future self-hypnosis induced meditation sessions although it is usually detrimental to the mediation session at hand. A trick can be to decide in advance roughly how far you will allow your visualization to take you before "turning it off".

[johndoe2012]

Is Damo's Cave from KAP and "Path Notes from an American Ninja Master" the same as self-hypnosis?

 

It seems like the same technique mentioned here:

 

http://litemind.com/mental-sanctuary/

 

Devoid: is this the technique you are using?

[Taomeow]

To get less theoretical, one can ascertain that a visualization meditation can be as mindful as it gets yet as unlikely to slip into self-hypnosis as it is impossible to bite your own elbow, here's a technique you might want to try:

 

lie on your back, breathe naturally, close your eyes;

visualize your big toes;

visualize a lotus flower growing out of each big toe;

a buddha is sitting in the center of each lotus flower;

visualize each buddha's big toes;

see a lotus flower grow out of each of these new buddhas big toe;

and a buddha is sitting in each;

and a lotus is growing out of every buddha's big toe;

and a buddha is sitting in the center;

etc.

 

If you can go like that for an hour and not lose track of all the toes, lotuses, and buddhas, pat yourself on your enlightened back. If you lose track within minutes, you will get a good idea of your mind's current limitations far as its "mindfulness" capabilities. Which is valuable input in and of itself.

[devoid]

Is Damo's Cave from KAP and "Path Notes from an American Ninja Master" the same as self-hypnosis?

 

It seems like the same technique mentioned here:

 

http://litemind.com/mental-sanctuary/

 

Devoid: is this the technique you are using?

 

I don't know Damo's Cave from KAP and haven't had the opportunity to read the Path Notes of an American Ninja Master either. I checked out the link - that is not the one I am using, but I guess one may well be as good the other

 

Before I can answer you question (about how I do self-hypnosis) we need to talk about what hypnosis is (I know I will probably get grilled for this, so please consider that this is solely my own humble opinion): Hypnosis is a range of methods (usually based on subsequent accepted suggestion upon accepted suggestion) which allows you to enter into an altered state (very high concentration and focus on some levels, yet no or little on others). The important thing to note here is that it can only work if the person being hypnotised is willing to "play along" (by accepting the suggestions).

 

I was taught a script which was named "The Heart's Garden" - I think Mal once posted something similar he had picked up from some exhibition or show, but couldn't find the thread, so sorry if I repeat something already on the forum:

 

Starts out with a couple of getting started suggestions:

You can sit yourself comfortably if you like. If you want to, you may to close your eyes. Although you might get sleepy and drift off a bit, you will continue to hear my voice.

 

Now, imagine entering your heart's garden - there's a beautiful open gate in front of the garden, and you can see it (perhaps not clearly yet) - but you can certainly enter without any problems. You may not recall having been here before, but you will realize how tranquil it has always been and you may even wonder at some stage why you didn't think of going here more often. Take your time, look around - try to visualize the detail of the wonderful things in your garden. It is full of your helpers - if flowers are there and need gardening, your helpers take joy in cultivating the garden. Look around some more - explore - investigate the detail you see.

 

From here the story can split - e.g. towards meditation:

In your garden is a huge Lotus flower - with the color you imagine and with as many flower petals as you can imagine. You will notice that this is the most tranquil part of the garden to do meditation. You will notice that it is big, sturdy and comfortable enough to allow you to sit on or lay in as you may in the most comfortable way to let go of all thoughts and clear your mind.

 

-or it could split to helping you remember something you forgot:

In your heart's garden you will notice a beautiful little shed - when you go there and open you door you will notice that it is full of things that you hold dear - full of memories. Explore the shed, opening its door and looking around - seeing what's on the table inside, opening the drawers, seeing what's inside.... You will remember that this is a wonderful place to keep things that are important to you.

 

-or it could split to a 'special vehicle':

In your heart's garden you notice a little hill - you make you way through the garden, past all of the things in your garden, looking around on the way, noticing some of the the detail along the way. As you make it to the hill you will notice a vehicle - unlike any vehicle you have ever seen before, but which is big enough to fit you comfortably inside. This vehicle is no ordinary vehicle - it can take you to anywhere you want to go, say, the centre of the universe. All you have to do is to decide that the vehicle should take you to the centre of the universe and off you go - slowly at first, but in no time you will start noticing how are moving fast - faster than the speed of light and as everything seems to pass by, you suddenly find the vehicle slowing and finally coming to a halt: Right at the centre of the Universe...

 

On ending:

You return to your vehicle, get in and wish yourself back to your heart's garden. After returning you notice how surprised you are at how easy this was, and how wonderful it is to be back in your heart's garten. Spend as long time you want to here, to settle back in. When you are ready, you proceed back through the gate - exactly the way you came. You notice yourself sitting comfortably, as before - probably you still have your eyes closed. You may open them when ready, but no rush...

 

-as you can probably imagine by now, the stories are potentially endless and as you work your way through, you can much easier get to 'where you want to go'. The first couple of times you try it may feel a bit odd (or not quite in there) - but after a couple of times, you will be able to build on previous images "experiences" to help you "get there" with much less effort. One such thing can be some things you picture from session to session about how you get to the gate of the garten, how you walk through or get in there, etc.

[Vajrahridaya]

Ok then I see stuff like Visualization based meditation where in one visualizes until they reach samadhi. Well I guess my question is how on earth does visualization 'meditation' even remotely compare to mindfulness based meditation.

 

 

As far as the power and intent of meditation with visualization... I'll just post some links and quotes. As far as mindfulness meditation like in Vipassana, it is suggested that one get acquainted with this quite early on and during the practices listed below. So really, one needs both Vipashyana and Visualization in Tantra.

 

Generation Stage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Stage

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

In Tantric Buddhism, the generation stage (T:kye rim; S:utpatti-krama) is the first phase of meditative Buddhist sādhana associated with the 'Father Tantra' (Wylie: pha-rgyud; pa-rgyud) class of anuttara-yoga-tantras of the Sarmapa or associated with what is known as Mahayoga Tantras by the Nyingmapa. An example of a 'Father Tantra' is the Guhyasamāja Tantra.

 

The generation stage engages creative imagination or visualization as an upaya or skillful means of personal transformation through which the practitioner (sadhaka) either visualizes a meditational deity (yidam) or refuge tree before themselves in front generation, or as themselves in self generation, to engender an alteration to their perception and/or experience of the appearance aspect of reality.[1]

 

The complement of the generation/development/creation stage is the completion stage (T:dzog rim; S:saṃpanna-krama).

 

Front generation

 

Front generation is a form of meditative visualization employed in Tantric Buddhism in which the yidam is visualized as being present in the sky facing the practitioner as opposed to the self-identification that occurs in self generation. According to the Vajrayana tradition, this approach is considered less advanced, hence safer for the sadhaka, and is engaged more for the rites of propitiation and worship.[2]

 

Self generation

 

Self generation is a form of meditative visualization employed in Tantric Buddhism in which the yidam is invoked and then merged with the sadhaka as an upaya of self-transformation. This is as opposed to the method of front generation. According to the Vajrayana tradition, self generation is held to be more advanced and accompanied by a degree of spiritual risk from the siddhi (mental powers) it may rapidly yield.

 

...................And the all important completion stage:

 

Completion stage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Completion_Stage

 

 

 

The completion stage (Tibetan:dzog rim; Sanskrit:saṃpanna-krama) is one of the two stages of Anuttarayoga Tantra. Completion stage may also be translated as perfection stage or fulfillment mode. The other stage of Anuttarayoga Tantra, which generally precedes the completion stage, is the generation stage (Tibetan:kye rim; Sanskrit:utpatti-krama).

 

The completion stage is the second phase of the Vajrayana Buddhist sadhana, or practice texts, associated with the Anuttarayoga Tantra, which in Dzogchen correspond to the Inner Tantras: Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Ati Yoga. Although completion stage appears in the Anuttarayoga Tantra in general, it is especially associated with the Mother Tantras such as the Hevajra Tantra. Completion stage practices are therefore associated with the development of a Vajra Body, through practices that purify the movement of lung in the subtle body.

 

 

Definition

 

The Dharma Dictionary defines the 'Completion Stage' as follows:

 

One of the two aspects of Vajrayana Practice. The meaning and depth of this principle changes while ascending through the three outer sections and the three inner sections of Tantra. For instance, the completion stage defined as the dissolving of the visualization of a deity corresponds to Mahayoga; the "Completion stage with marks" based on yogic practices such as tummo corresponds to Anu Yoga: and the "Completion stage without marks" is the practice of Ati Yoga.[1]

 

The completion stage engages creative imagination or visualization and emphasizes the voidness aspect of reality as a skillful means of personal transformation. The completion stage employs the "mystic vortices" of the body, the cakra, the subtle energy of the subtle body, the five pranas or vāyu, together with the channels, the nadi through which the energy flows in order to generate the 'great bliss' (Tibetan: Dem Chog or bde-mchog; Sanskrit: Maha-sukha) associated with bodhi or enlightenment.[2]

 

Dowman (1984: unpaginated), in elucidating the spiritual disciplines of the Mahasiddhas, links the completion stage with the Two Truths, voidness, along with a suite of advanced Mahamudra sadhana and other practices that are related to the Six Yogas of Naropa such as tummo:

 

Fulfillment meditation includes "higher" techniques of meditation, which result in understanding of ultimate truth. But since relative and ultimate truth are two sides of the same coin, creative and fulfillment stages both lead to the same goal. Fundamentally, fulfillment meditation techniques entail the perception of emptiness in form, or the dissolution of form into emptiness: the dissolution of the creative stage vision into emptiness is technically a fulfillment stage practice. Examples of fulfillment mode yogas are dream yoga, the yoga of the mystic heat, Mahamudra meditation, the yoga of the apparitional body, the yoga of resurrection, clear light meditation, and the yoga of uniting skillful means [upaya] and perfect insight [prajna] to create the seed-essence of pure pleasure.[3]

 

"Seed-essence" is a rendering of tigle and changchubsem = 'seed-essence' = yang life-force = white bodhicitta. Seed-essence (Sanskrit: bija-tattva) is cognate with bindu (Sanskrit) and gankyil (Tibetan).

 

Dowman (1984: unpaginated) further maps the instrumentation[4] of "fulfillment meditation" in relation to the Mahamudra kundalini raising of the 'phowa of Great Transference' ("ultimate liberation") through the cranial fontanelle at the 'Bardo of Death' and a subsidiary preparatory sexual yoga:

 

The system of visualization vital in fulfillment meditation is that of the subtle body. This imaginary subtle body consists of psychic nerves - nadi, their focal points or energy centers - cakras; the energy that runs in the nerves - prana; and the essence of prana, known as "seed-essence" or bindu. A central channel, or nerve, runs from the sexual center to the fontanelle, and the left, rasana, and right, lalana, channels run parallel joining the central channel, the avadhuti, at the gut center. Converging from all parts of the body like physical veins, subsidiary nerves enter the central channel at the five focal points of psychic energy - the sexual, gut, heart, throat and head centers. Visualization of this system allows the yogin to manipulate the energies relating to the various centers for different mundane purposes, but the highest aim is to inject all energy into the central channel and up to the head center where ultimate liberation is achieved. The key to this system relates right and left channels to skillful means (male) and perfect insight (female) respectively, and the central channel to their union - Mahamudra. In an important sexual yoga, with or without a sexual partner, red and white seed-essence, bodhicittas, are mixed in the sexual center to rise up the central channel as kundalini. This is the yoga of uniting pure pleasure and emptiness.[3]

 

Dalton (2003: unpaginated) states that:

 

The perfection stage practices are often divided into those without signs (mtshan med) and those with signs (mtshan bcas). The former refer to practices in which the enlightened view is accomplished instantaneously, without any effort, “like a fish leaping out of the water.” The latter – the practices with signs – are generally the perfection stage practices known collectively as “channels and winds” (rtsa lung). Here, the practitioner works with a system of channels within one’s body, through which are moving the “winds” – subtle energies closely related to one’s mind. [5]

 

Berzin (2008: unpaginated) frames the energetic process of the completion stage and in so doing, mentions the Clear Light, the Illusory Body, and the Rupakaya:

 

On the complete stage, we cause the energy-winds (rlung, Skt. prana) to enter, abide, and dissolve in the central channel. This enables us to access the subtlest level of mental activity (clear light, ‘ od-gsal) and use it for the nonconceptual cognition of voidness – the immediate cause for the omniscient mind of a Buddha. We use the subtlest level of energy-wind, which supports clear light mental activity, to arise in the form of an illusory body (sgyu-lus) as the immediate cause for the network of form bodies (Skt. rupakaya) of a Buddha.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

As far as the power and intent of meditation with visualization... I'll just post some links and quotes.

 

Generation Stage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Stage

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

In Tantric Buddhism, the generation stage (T:kye rim; S:utpatti-krama) is the first phase of meditative Buddhist sādhana associated with the 'Father Tantra' (Wylie: pha-rgyud; pa-rgyud) class of anuttara-yoga-tantras of the Sarmapa or associated with what is known as Mahayoga Tantras by the Nyingmapa. An example of a 'Father Tantra' is the Guhyasamāja Tantra.

 

The generation stage engages creative imagination or visualization as an upaya or skillful means of personal transformation through which the practitioner (sadhaka) either visualizes a meditational deity (yidam) or refuge tree before themselves in front generation, or as themselves in self generation, to engender an alteration to their perception and/or experience of the appearance aspect of reality.[1]

 

The complement of the generation/development/creation stage is the completion stage (T:dzog rim; S:saṃpanna-krama).

 

Front generation

 

Front generation is a form of meditative visualization employed in Tantric Buddhism in which the yidam is visualized as being present in the sky facing the practitioner as opposed to the self-identification that occurs in self generation. According to the Vajrayana tradition, this approach is considered less advanced, hence safer for the sadhaka, and is engaged more for the rites of propitiation and worship.[2]

 

Self generation

 

Self generation is a form of meditative visualization employed in Tantric Buddhism in which the yidam is invoked and then merged with the sadhaka as an upaya of self-transformation. This is as opposed to the method of front generation. According to the Vajrayana tradition, self generation is held to be more advanced and accompanied by a degree of spiritual risk from the siddhi (mental powers) it may rapidly yield.

 

...................And the all important completion stage:

 

Completion stage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Completion_Stage

 

 

 

The completion stage (Tibetan:dzog rim; Sanskrit:saṃpanna-krama) is one of the two stages of Anuttarayoga Tantra. Completion stage may also be translated as perfection stage or fulfillment mode. The other stage of Anuttarayoga Tantra, which generally precedes the completion stage, is the generation stage (Tibetan:kye rim; Sanskrit:utpatti-krama).

 

The completion stage is the second phase of the Vajrayana Buddhist sadhana, or practice texts, associated with the Anuttarayoga Tantra, which in Dzogchen correspond to the Inner Tantras: Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Ati Yoga. Although completion stage appears in the Anuttarayoga Tantra in general, it is especially associated with the Mother Tantras such as the Hevajra Tantra. Completion stage practices are therefore associated with the development of a Vajra Body, through practices that purify the movement of lung in the subtle body.

 

 

Definition

 

The Dharma Dictionary defines the 'Completion Stage' as follows:

 

One of the two aspects of Vajrayana Practice. The meaning and depth of this principle changes while ascending through the three outer sections and the three inner sections of Tantra. For instance, the completion stage defined as the dissolving of the visualization of a deity corresponds to Mahayoga; the "Completion stage with marks" based on yogic practices such as tummo corresponds to Anu Yoga: and the "Completion stage without marks" is the practice of Ati Yoga.[1]

 

The completion stage engages creative imagination or visualization and emphasizes the voidness aspect of reality as a skillful means of personal transformation. The completion stage employs the "mystic vortices" of the body, the cakra, the subtle energy of the subtle body, the five pranas or vāyu, together with the channels, the nadi through which the energy flows in order to generate the 'great bliss' (Tibetan: Dem Chog or bde-mchog; Sanskrit: Maha-sukha) associated with bodhi or enlightenment.[2]

 

Dowman (1984: unpaginated), in elucidating the spiritual disciplines of the Mahasiddhas, links the completion stage with the Two Truths, voidness, along with a suite of advanced Mahamudra sadhana and other practices that are related to the Six Yogas of Naropa such as tummo:

 

Fulfillment meditation includes "higher" techniques of meditation, which result in understanding of ultimate truth. But since relative and ultimate truth are two sides of the same coin, creative and fulfillment stages both lead to the same goal. Fundamentally, fulfillment meditation techniques entail the perception of emptiness in form, or the dissolution of form into emptiness: the dissolution of the creative stage vision into emptiness is technically a fulfillment stage practice. Examples of fulfillment mode yogas are dream yoga, the yoga of the mystic heat, Mahamudra meditation, the yoga of the apparitional body, the yoga of resurrection, clear light meditation, and the yoga of uniting skillful means [upaya] and perfect insight [prajna] to create the seed-essence of pure pleasure.[3]

 

"Seed-essence" is a rendering of tigle and changchubsem = 'seed-essence' = yang life-force = white bodhicitta. Seed-essence (Sanskrit: bija-tattva) is cognate with bindu (Sanskrit) and gankyil (Tibetan).

 

Dowman (1984: unpaginated) further maps the instrumentation[4] of "fulfillment meditation" in relation to the Mahamudra kundalini raising of the 'phowa of Great Transference' ("ultimate liberation") through the cranial fontanelle at the 'Bardo of Death' and a subsidiary preparatory sexual yoga:

 

The system of visualization vital in fulfillment meditation is that of the subtle body. This imaginary subtle body consists of psychic nerves - nadi, their focal points or energy centers - cakras; the energy that runs in the nerves - prana; and the essence of prana, known as "seed-essence" or bindu. A central channel, or nerve, runs from the sexual center to the fontanelle, and the left, rasana, and right, lalana, channels run parallel joining the central channel, the avadhuti, at the gut center. Converging from all parts of the body like physical veins, subsidiary nerves enter the central channel at the five focal points of psychic energy - the sexual, gut, heart, throat and head centers. Visualization of this system allows the yogin to manipulate the energies relating to the various centers for different mundane purposes, but the highest aim is to inject all energy into the central channel and up to the head center where ultimate liberation is achieved. The key to this system relates right and left channels to skillful means (male) and perfect insight (female) respectively, and the central channel to their union - Mahamudra. In an important sexual yoga, with or without a sexual partner, red and white seed-essence, bodhicittas, are mixed in the sexual center to rise up the central channel as kundalini. This is the yoga of uniting pure pleasure and emptiness.[3]

 

Dalton (2003: unpaginated) states that:

 

The perfection stage practices are often divided into those without signs (mtshan med) and those with signs (mtshan bcas). The former refer to practices in which the enlightened view is accomplished instantaneously, without any effort, “like a fish leaping out of the water.” The latter – the practices with signs – are generally the perfection stage practices known collectively as “channels and winds” (rtsa lung). Here, the practitioner works with a system of channels within one’s body, through which are moving the “winds” – subtle energies closely related to one’s mind. [5]

 

Berzin (2008: unpaginated) frames the energetic process of the completion stage and in so doing, mentions the Clear Light, the Illusory Body, and the Rupakaya:

 

On the complete stage, we cause the energy-winds (rlung, Skt. prana) to enter, abide, and dissolve in the central channel. This enables us to access the subtlest level of mental activity (clear light, ‘ od-gsal) and use it for the nonconceptual cognition of voidness – the immediate cause for the omniscient mind of a Buddha. We use the subtlest level of energy-wind, which supports clear light mental activity, to arise in the form of an illusory body (sgyu-lus) as the immediate cause for the network of form bodies (Skt. rupakaya) of a Buddha.

 

 

I thought this thread was in regards to hypnosis, not about the superiority of Buddhism. What is offered here is merely an academic overview with nothing substantive.

 

ralis

 

 

ralis

Edited July 14, 2010 by ralis

[ralis]

[Vajrahridaya]

I thought this thread was in regards to hypnosis, not about the superiority of Buddhism.

 

 

ralis

 

You should read before you comment, instead of reacting from the place of dogma you have limiting your perception of my posts. Just a suggestion.

[ralis]

You should read before you comment, instead of reacting from the place of dogma you have limiting your perception of my posts. Just a suggestion.

 

I don't have a limited perception of your preaching. I see it for what it is. What do you hope to accomplish by posting this? Without a context of a practice, what you referred to accomplishes nothing.

 

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

All I see the latter doing is just dunking someone into trance asap, and thus being a psychological tool to help calm ourselves. I can't see how this helps us on the spiritual path. How does it cultivate mindfulness and allows one to endure the purification process when essentially we ignore the top layer of our waking consciousness.

 

Though the below is really not to be practiced directly until one has reached a certain stage in the completion with visualization as spoken above in the quotes and links. So first one is to know the above fruit of visualization meditation techniques, then employ the experience with the below. The completion stages of practice are to be utilized with the below which may come as a shocker to many;

 

"Guhyasamaja Tantra

 

Sanskrit guhyasamaja: Secret Observances

Tib., gsang ba 'dus pa: Assembly of Secrets

 

This "assembly of secrets" is probably the earliest and most important of Buddhist Tantric scriptures; attributed to Asanga, the 4th century Yogacara master. This treatise, sometimes simply referred to as the Samaja Tantra but also as Tathagata Guhyaka, represents one of the root texts that were instrumental in the development of Vajrayana and belongs to the highest class of its teachings, the Anuttara Yoga Tantra.

 

According to tradition, these teachings were given from Tilopa to Naropa, through whom they arrived in the Kadam-pa/Gelug-pa and Kagyud-pa traditions.

 

The ancient Tantra also states that - if psychic powers (siddhis) are to be acquired - women must always be associated with those who attempt to reach this goal. Such attainment of psychic powers and training in magic is one of the main topics of the Guhyasamaja, and some of the magic spells and rituals are clearly ancient ones in that they are also known in cultures the world over.

 

The text also speaks of the virtues inherent in desire and sensory enjoyment, the well-being of body and mind, and of realizing the Buddha nature through the union of female and male. It differs from many later texts in not condemning male ejaculation but says that

 

"when the diamond (i.e. lingam) is connected to the lotus (i.e. yoni) in the union of both polarities, one worships the Buddhas and the diamond beings with the drops of one's semen."

 

We also read that the male adept, or yogi, "lets his semen flow out continuously in the form of mandalas". [translated from the German edition. Gäng. p.145f]

 

The text allows for ritual union between siblings and between mother with son, indicating that even within the fold of Buddhism (with its unequivocal prohibition of "adultery" and its demand for continence), Tantra preserved its radical element of civil disobedience. This is also evident in works such as the Prajnopaya-viniscaya Siddhi.

 

Here two more quotes from the text, their similarity clearly showing its general tone.

 

"Do not suppress your feelings,

choose whatever you Will,

and do whatever you desire,

for in this way you please the Goddess."

 

"No one succeeds in attaining perfection

by employing difficult and vexing operations;

but perfection can be gained

by satisfying all ones desires."

 

There are various similarities between this text and the later Kalachakra Tantra (ca. 750), as both texts deal extensively with magic and ritual sexuality; especially the so-called Sadanga Yoga (Yoga of Six Limbs) all six stages of which are practiced while the two partners are sexually aroused and joined in the yab-yum position.

Literature

 

Gäng, Peter. Das Tantra der verborgenen Vereinigung: Guhyasamaja-Tantra. Munich: 1988.

Wayman, A. The Yoga of the Guhyasamaja Tantra: The Arcane Lore of Forty Verses. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1977. "

 

Further reading on the Guhyasamaja Tantra http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=highest+yoga+tantra&x=0&y=0

 

I read the one by Daniel Cozort, but any one of the highest rated ones might do just fine for an introductory explanation of such esoterica.

 

Anyway, Visualization techniques accompanied by mindfulness or Vipassana in Pali or Vipashyana in Sanskrit along with guidance by a true adept, does accomplish everything.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Birdoftruth]

In the true meditational forms, there is no loss of alertness and awareness. On the contrary, one's alertness and awareness will become more pervasive over practice time.

 

Trance is often the willing inducement of a state other than that which naturally arises. It can be implied as a form of escapism. In true meditation, one seeks to understand the underlying causes of why there is this need to escape in the first place. It could mean facing up to whatever arises squarely, without running away from unpleasantness or trying to hang on to the more pleasant, bliss-like states.

 

This forum also had a similar topic: http://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=284.0

Have a read if interested.

 

Yes! This is a clear answer to my suspicions. Now my question is, when a person visualizes...Whether a white skeleton or a rose for their form of meditation...are they not just neglecting the mindfulness aspect of meditation possibly leading to this "bliss" state as they used some abstract image in their mind to get their as opposed to naturally being led their through their awareness. If so It is thus I think one will never experience the purification process if they go about this way of inducing a blissful trance and/or not being mindful. My train of thought is visualizing = attached to a form = bad.

 

Also with regards to one's awareness becoming more pervasive over practice time I still feel like If I am not being attentive while outside of meditation then meditation is just escapism because if you are not practicing mindfulness in the 'real world' then your enhanced awareness is anchored to your meditative state as opposed to every waking moment of life.

 

"Sometimes, however, it doesn't quite work out that way (or I am not calm enough and know it) - so I will use self-hypnonsis based on visualization as a short-cut to help get me to a meditative state. Based on a bit of training this usually works for me within a few minutes rather than spending half an hour or more trying to appease the monkey mind."

 

I guess my question is to you is if you find yourself just in a state of calm bliss or do you find yourself paying attention to both your feeling body and thinking mind in a state of nothingness?

[Vajrahridaya]

To get less theoretical, one can ascertain that a visualization meditation can be as mindful as it gets yet as unlikely to slip into self-hypnosis as it is impossible to bite your own elbow, here's a technique you might want to try:

 

lie on your back, breathe naturally, close your eyes;

visualize your big toes;

visualize a lotus flower growing out of each big toe;

a buddha is sitting in the center of each lotus flower;

visualize each buddha's big toes;

see a lotus flower grow out of each of these new buddhas big toe;

and a buddha is sitting in each;

and a lotus is growing out of every buddha's big toe;

and a buddha is sitting in the center;

etc.

 

If you can go like that for an hour and not lose track of all the toes, lotuses, and buddhas, pat yourself on your enlightened back. If you lose track within minutes, you will get a good idea of your mind's current limitations far as its "mindfulness" capabilities. Which is valuable input in and of itself.

 

Oooo, neat! I used to do something similar to this until my body was filled with pulsating bliss like energy particle awareness, or something like that. I would feel my brain was like made of bliss particles... HAHA! It works!