Time to move on

[Apech]

I've deleted all my Buddhist related posts.

You and your cohorts on this forum have beaten me to death with your fundamentalist preaching and claims of superiority.

Your 'Death is an illusion of perception' quote was the final nail in the coffin for me. It's disgusting.

I have no further interest in Buddhism or religions of any sort.

I'm also considering quitting this forum altogether.

I'll have to have a long think if I want to be part of this.

 

Adept,

 

Don't leave on the basis of this. I like to read your posts and hope you will stay. Other people are free to express themselves and we don't have to agree on anything/everything. I don't like personal attacks but ideas are free and I think we just have to accept our differences. Also I don't think Buddhism or Dharma rests on what anyone says on here ...

 

Anyway hope you reconsider.

 

John

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Vajra, are you totally incapable of changing your style to not preaching Buddhist superiority, or are you just unwilling?

[That Guy]

This has turned into quite a circus, I was here at the start, am I responsible? will there be karma to pay?

 

Adept, relax man, I use to get worked up too, these days I just like "what the?....wait you're serious.....? I dont even..............." and then I

 

Even if some of the people here say hurtful things sometimes, they probably don't mean them like that, they just a bit <insert nice word here>

[Marblehead]

Yes they are. I love my students and have a great deal of patience with them. I have no students here, and like a Ninja, I show you what I want you to see

 

Yep, like the Master once said, I taught him everything he knows, but I didn't teach him everything I know.

 

Peace & Love!

[Pero]

^^^Unless you are Buddhist, apparently... (No offense intended -- just a gentle barb for the Church of God evangelists in the crowd.)

 

I don't know why it would be offensive, but I don't really understand it.

[C T]

Other people are free to express themselves...

Apparently this right is seen by some to be the exclusive status that belong to those who profess allegiance to Taoism.

 

Its amazing that those who seem so agitated by what they read are the same people who proclaim that their intention here is to learn and share. Well, if i was agitated by someone's words or actions, the first thing i would ask myself is, where does this agitation/aversion arise from? And work at it from there. By screaming at others it only serves to detract me from finding the root cause of the lack of ease in myself. Its almost like a distraction that prevents me from seeing that others too have their stuff to work through, and this forum can often be the very source that reveals things not so much about the projected disdain and ugliness of others, but more so the revelation of my own shortcomings in facing up to where exactly this projection is coming out from. If i can keep this mindfulness, i am usually grand, but at times its easy to lose it, not because there are stupid things being said by others, its simply my own lack of tolerance and acceptance that gets in the way.

 

Perhaps this is one of the ways to grow thru learning, no? If everyone agrees with everyone else, what is the point of discussions? Look at some of the Taoist philosophy threads... All one sees are pats on the back and sweet exchanges of niceties, like 10 responses tops, all congratulatory in nature, all in agreement of sorts. "Yeah, i feel the same, this is it, the way its meant to be, i realized it and so on", and thats the end of the thread. Discourses are meant to incite deeper introspections into what makes us want to tick, and what ticks us off. Often these do not create too much comfort. Should it be that comfort is what one seeks, then perhaps this is not the place to get it. So what if its not? No need to throw tantrums around, and blame others for one's own inability to rise above the convoluted frailties of online discussions.

 

just some reflections...

Edited July 20, 2010 by CowTao

[Brian]

..

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I agree with every word you wrote, CowTao! For a moment, however, imagine the following scenario:

 

Suppose you joined a Yeats forum (lets call it TYB...) because you had a great love of Yeats' poetry or because you were interested in learning more about it. Then suppose that a very small number of forum members were really Shelley fans and, rather than appreciate Yeats and offer valuable insights & contrasts from the works of Shelley, they entered into almost every thread with a "only Shelley's work matters" attitude. After a while, a repeated barrage of "let me tell you why Yeats is wrong" posts supported only by Shelley verse would grow very tiresome to the Yeats aficionados. Those threads would also be the most contentious and lengthy on TYB but would not necessarily be the most valuable.

 

I have not been on The Tao Bums forum long but it has been long enough to see that there are some deeply narcissistic Buddhists here (a small fraction of the Buddhists on the forum, mind you!) who seem to see it as their duty to proselytize. Comparing & contrasting is one thing, and I suspect is warmly welcomed, but lecturing about the teachings of Gautama rightfully gets a similar reaction to that which lecturing about Jesus, Krishna or Sun Young Moon would receive. If I were looking to learn about Buddhism (thank you, Durkhrod, for those links, by the way!!! I'm enjoying them!), I probably would have Googled up "The Buddhist Bums"...

 

Verry elegant post!! But, of course Byron owned both Yeats and Shelley, but this after all is not TheByronBums, so I shall refrain from preaching here inappropriately.

[Mark Foote]

If I were looking to learn about Buddhism (thank you, Durkhrod, for those links, by the way!!! I'm enjoying them!), I probably would have Googled up "The Buddhist Bums"...

 

I like "Tao Bums" myself, because I feel Taoism offers a kind of open-ended teaching. I don't know this from teachers or readings, I just assume it somehow. "Dharma bum" and "dharma" used to have that connotation for me, before Buddhist institutions moved into the mainstream in this country; now I associate the words with teachers who have taught that the precepts are really the main gate.

 

I know more of Buddhism, because I sat down and read the four principle Nikaya volumes in their Pali Text Society translations. And I've always wanted to learn to sit the lotus, and after finally breaking down and studying anatomy (and getting lucky with the discovery of John Upledger and cranial-sacral therapy), I've learned how to manage it as a morning and evening practice. I like Taoism, and the freer the translation the more I seem to like it. I also like the Egyptian pyramid texts, which I think are available on this site.

 

The thing about the Pali Cannon texts is, they put forward a method by which to proceed. And the method is consistent, although it also says that one must "grasp after nothing in this world", and the teaching closes with the line "everything changes, work out your own salvation". I think a lot of what the Tao Bums site has to offer is the gems that people have found personally workable from the great legacy of ancient China, the methods and consistent frameworks of understanding. When the relationships that are important to human well-being are outlined in a consistent way, they seem to transcend any particular tradition; sometimes Tao Bums rewards me with such an outline. Sometimes I think it's just about taking the teachings we are already working with, Taoist, Buddhist, whatever, and drawing out the relationships that are outlined consistently.

 

welcome back, Durkhrod Chogori.

[Marblehead]

Nice post CowTao.

 

However, (hehehe, here I go) ...

 

This:

 

Look at some of the Taoist philosophy threads... All one sees are pats on the back and sweet exchanges of niceties, like 10 responses tops, all congratulatory in nature, all in agreement of sorts. "Yeah, i feel the same, this is it, the way its meant to be, i realized it and so on", and thats the end of the thread.

 

Caused me laughter. Yeah, we (the Taoists) love us and when we talk about our philosophy we generally are in agreement.

 

But every now and then our discussions get to go a little deeper than just the opening post. But we rarely get into arguements but rather try to work out common (mis)understandings.

 

Yes, this place would be a little boring now and then without our Buddhist friends. And I do honestly believe that most of the negative feelings come into play when a thread is started to discuss a Taoist concept and it ends up being a battle between Taoists and Buddhists.

 

So better, I think, to have 10 posts displaying positivity than having 235 posts displaying negativity.

 

And I think that if the Buddhists want to talk about the concept in a thread that was newly opened why couldn't they open their alternative thread and discuss the concept from a Buddhist point of view. This way those interested in Buddhism could follow both threads and see how the concept is understood by both philosophies without having to pick through all the negativity.

 

And really, there are some Buddhist concepts that are just beyond acceptance by any Philosophical Taoist. That's what makes the two philosophies different. And I grant you that there are some Taoist concepts that are not acceptable for Buddhists. But that doesn't mean we have to constantly destroy threads just to show our lack of consideration for those who are actually trying to learn something while being a member here.

 

I've said enough.

 

Calm follows the blowing of the winds.

 

Peace & Love!

[Tao99]

Look at some of the Taoist philosophy threads... All one sees are pats on the back and sweet exchanges of niceties, like 10 responses tops, all congratulatory in nature, all in agreement of sorts. "Yeah, i feel the same, this is it, the way its meant to be, i realized it and so on", and thats the end of the thread.

 

 

well we've been cursed for a lot of things here by V the Buddhist: deluded, projecting, anger driven, fear driven, stuck in self etc etc etc

 

But this is the first time we've been cursed for being in agreement and sweet!!!!!!!!!!

 

Can't win for losing!~

 

have a good one!!

Edited July 20, 2010 by Tao99

[Marblehead]

Time for a group hug?

 

You betcha!!!

 

Peace & Love!

[Taomeow]

 

And I think that if the Buddhists want to talk about the concept in a thread that was newly opened why couldn't they open their alternative thread and discuss the concept from a Buddhist point of view. This way those interested in Buddhism could follow both threads and see how the concept is understood by both philosophies without having to pick through all the negativity.

 

Yup, in a perfect world, that's what would be happening. Buddhists would be working on perfecting their minds instead of on changing ours.

 

I, a taoist with strong proto-taoist shamanic leanings, am interested in one buddhist thing only, not because I'm ignorant (who of the Westerners doesn't come from buddhism when it comes to Eastern philosophies/religions?.. we all started there, it's just that some of us didn't stop there...) but because I know myself (know thyself!) for what I am, a taoist with a shamanic slant, or maybe vice versa... tens of thousands of years removed in my "ideology" from the chronological birth of the buddha (which, incidentally, coincides with my own birthday... plus I have a buddha-shaped birthmark... and if THIS didn't make a buddhist out of me, nothing will!). But I have genuine taoist and shamanic reasons to be interested in one buddhist thingie because it was mentioned to me by a supernatural entity in a shamanic context, so I had to pay attention. Maitreya. I want to know about Maitreya from a reliable source. I want to hear Maitreya chants. And I dare not ask here because I dare not ask the buddhists about anything, because I'm afraid I'll get another round of sermons instead of the specific information I'm looking for.

 

Taoists occasionally respond to the actual query at hand with helpful information. When buddhists chime in, they contribute ideology, the party line. I'd love to be proved wrong one day, but so far, no luck.

[Marblehead]

Yup, in a perfect world, that's what would be happening. Buddhists would be working on perfecting their minds instead of on changing ours.

 

Hehehe. Yeah, I still hold my ideals of a perfect world. Share the land. (Yeah, I know I'm not the first one to say that.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

Vajra, are you totally incapable of changing your style to not preaching Buddhist superiority, or are you just unwilling?

Are you unwilling to not be reactive? If you take another point of view to my posts that I am just speaking my own experience and view, and not take your own button reactions so seriously. You'll have another outlook and perception.

 

I'm just matter of fact and speak what I feel and experience to be right. I actually have far more supporters than those that post. They are scared of you guys... honestly. You guys are pissed off from your own state of seeing.

 

I speak life and my experience of life through Buddhist terminology, that is all. That's all. Because someone said the way is narrow, doesn't mean your mind has to be.

[Marblehead]

They are scared of you guys... honestly. You guys are pissed off from your own state of seeing.

 

I speak life and my experience of life through Buddhist terminology, that is all. That's all. Because someone said the way is narrow, doesn't mean your mind has to be.

 

Be careful with your generalizations.

 

So open your freaking mind. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Tao99]

 

well we've been cursed for a lot of things here by V the Buddhist: deluded, projecting, anger driven, fear driven, stuck in ego etc etc etc

 

But this is the first time we've been cursed for being in agreement and sweet!!!!!!!!!!

 

Can't win for losing!~

 

have a good one!!

 

 

Are you unwilling to not be reactive? If you take another point of view to my posts that I am just speaking my own experience and view, and not take your own button reactions so seriously. You'll have another outlook and perception.

 

I'm just matter of fact and speak what I feel and experience to be right. I actually have far more supporters than those that post. They are scared of you guys... honestly. You guys are pissed off from your own state of seeing.

 

I speak life and my experience of life through Buddhist terminology, that is all. That's all. Because someone said the way is narrow, doesn't mean your mind has to be.

 

well now I have to add some more curses to my

 

V the Buddhist Curses on the House of Taoists:

 

button reactors

 

flawed state of seeing (flawed/wrong vision i think)

 

narrow minds

 

YIKES! If I didn't know myself so well I'd feel bad!

 

uh oh ... I'm starting to develop a theory about V ... Yes it's based on observation and logic ... but apparently V's lurkers don't see any of that.

[Vajrahridaya]

Be careful with your generalizations.

 

So open your freaking mind. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

 

It's quite open.......

[Vajrahridaya]

well now I have to add some more curses to my

 

V the Buddhist Curses on the House of Taoists:

 

button reactors

 

flawed state of seeing (flawed/wrong vision i think)

 

narrow minds

 

YIKES! If I didn't know myself so well I'd feel bad!

 

uh oh ... I'm starting to develop a theory about V ... Yes it's based on observation and logic ... but apparently V's lurkers don't see any of that.

 

I guess your view is not a universally agreed upon dogma. Neither is mine. I don't rant and rave hatefully against people about this, I just speak my disagreements or agreements.

[Apech]

 

 

So better, I think, to have 10 posts displaying positivity than having 235 posts displaying negativity.

 

 

 

 

Size isn't everything ... or so I like to believe.

 

What makes TTBs a special place is the discussions and debate. This place is not a sterile place of dogma. But I think that too often all you get is pages and pages of bitching and point scoring. These threads are long but are painful to read. And they usually go nowhere or rather to the same place.

 

The Taoist threads are often peaceful where they start with a quote from Taoist Philosophy - I think this is just a sign of how powerful/true those words are. Most debate is about whether the translation is right or perhaps can it be read another way. I have learned a tremendous amount from this - especially from people who know the Chinese (I don't).

 

As regards the dharma - is it not the case that Taoism and Buddhism rubbed up against each other for centuries in China and learned from each other. Do we expect one of these two to suddenly prove that it has somehow won the debate and consigned the other to the dustbin of history? It ain't going to happen. Not on here or anywhere.

 

Any serious Buddhist wills for all sentient beings to find happiness and enlightenment. While they would doubtless see the dharma as special and maybe 'perfect' they certainly would not be against anyone finding these things in another way. This means that attacking other systems in a way that makes it less likely that the people involved find happiness and enlightenment is a complete no-no. Or so I believe.

 

Taoists similarly have no interest in ramming their ideas down other peoples throats - as this would be very un-Taoist - though seeming strong would actually be weak and so on.

[Taomeow]

I speak life and my experience of life through Buddhist terminology, that is all. That's all. Because someone said the way is narrow, doesn't mean your mind has to be.

 

 

Maybe some of the problem IS terminology. When buddhist terms are used in taoist contexts, e.g. "chakras" get thrown in which are not part of taoist anatomy and physiology of energy, "kriyas" which disallow a taoist analysis of the jing-qi-shen interactions involved in the phenomenon, "karma" which is at odds with about 90% of original taoist systems, and so on, it's about as helpful as calling a car engine "a chariot of fifty horses" --

 

yeah, there's similarities, but once you drive a car, knowing the anatomy and physiology of horses is not going to help you... and likewise, if you ride in a chariot pulled by fifty horses, knowing about the transmission and the gas pedal and the antilock brakes is not going to help you either. It's not that one is superior/inferior to the other (I happen to think that in the final analysis both are wrong -- the car-driving and the horse-abuse-driving) -- it's just that one is not the other and neither benefits from mixing them together. Or, the way an early Taoist physicist put it, "it's as true as that the ox is not a horse."

[Tao99]

I guess your view is not a universally agreed upon dogma. Neither is mine. I don't rant and rave hatefully against people about this, I just speak my disagreements or agreements.

 

Wierd. I completely disagree both with your characterization of yourself and your characterization of your detractors who are in fact ... 'just speaking their disagreements or agreements.'

 

Maybe we should have a poll on this. Then your timid lurkers can vote anonymously

 

(** Should timidity be added to your list of curses? I think so!!! **)

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Maybe some of the problem IS terminology. When buddhist terms are used in taoist contexts, e.g. "chakras" get thrown in which are not part of taoist anatomy and physiology of energy, "kriyas" which disallow a taoist analysis of the jing-qi-shen interactions involved in the phenomenon, "karma" which is at odds with about 90% of original taoist systems, and so on, it's about as helpful as calling a car engine "a chariot of fifty horses" --

 

yeah, there's similarities, but once you drive a car, knowing the anatomy and physiology of horses is not going to help you... and likewise, if you ride in a chariot pulled by fifty horses, knowing about the transmission and the gas pedal and the antilock brakes is not going to help you either. It's not that one is superior/inferior to the other (I happen to think that in the final analysis both are wrong -- the car-driving and the horse-abuse-driving) -- it's just that one is not the other and neither benefits from mixing them together. Or, the way an early Taoist physicist put it, "it's as true as that the ox is not a horse."

 

Could be so... it's quite relative. The Buddha said that his dharma is empty of inherent existence and only exists relative to whoever is interpreting it. I do like your analogies.

 

But... he also did define a "Right View" in reference to the Dharma of Buddhahood. It is the first part of his elaboration of the 8 fold path.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Wierd. I completely disagree both with your characterization of yourself and your characterization of your detractors who are in fact ... 'just speaking their disagreements or agreements.'

 

Maybe we should have a poll on this. Then your timid lurkers can vote anonymously

 

(** Should timidity be added to your list of curses? I think so!!! **)

Just put me on ignore. So easy... bye, bye my experience of the ogre Vajrahridaya.

 

Then again... do what you wish... if this is part of your path to satisfaction, go for it!

[Tao99]

Just put me on ignore. So easy... bye, bye my experience of the ogre Vajrahridaya.

 

Then again... do what you wish... if this is part of your path to satisfaction, go for it!

 

Do you feel like an ogre? I never called you an ogre. Are you projecting? Funny thing is ...it's you who constantly makes an 'ogre' out of people who disagree as you can see by my list. Now that's hilarious!

 

have a good one!!