helping thouse who do not know much about taoism and are still young?

[Sahaj Nath]

i don't really advertise because i don't accept just anyone for training, but my door is always open to the sick.

 

i actually like you bro, but this conversation is just getting irritating and tedious. so i'm over this.

 

i don't expect anything. i'm just saying it's out there, in fairly plain sight, even if you don't see it on MSNBC or Fox News this evening. you don't see it because it hasn't been put right in your face, NOT because the information isn't out there.

 

 

and i don't need anyone to cater to me; in fact, it is I whom am trying to cater to YOU here. but now i guess my offer is illegitimate because i'm a random stranger on the internet? you're here crying about proof, i'm offering to be examined, and you basically reject it, rather flippantly, saying the burden is on me.

 

i have no burden in this. YOU either care to seek the truth of it or YOU don't.

 

i guess it was the "royal treatment" comment that really irritated me. it was kind of a jerk thing to say, PLUS it was a weak deflection of my offer.

 

but whatever. i'm not going anywhere. i'm right here. either get back to me on my offer, or don't.

 

btw, motel 6 and chinese take-out will suit me fine; i don't need to be catered to.

[Sloppy Zhang]

i don't really advertise because i don't accept just anyone for training, but my door is always open to the sick.

 

i actually like you bro, but this conversation is just getting irritating and tedious. so i'm over this.

 

i don't expect anything. i'm just saying it's out there, in fairly plain sight, even if you don't see it on MSNBC or Fox News this evening. you don't see it because it hasn't been put right in your face, NOT because the information isn't out there.

 

 

and i don't need anyone to cater to me; in fact, it is I whom am trying to cater to YOU here. but now i guess my offer is illegitimate because i'm a random stranger on the internet? you're here crying about proof, i'm offering to be examined, and you basically reject it, rather flippantly, saying the burden is on me.

 

i have no burden in this. YOU either care to seek the truth of it or YOU don't.

 

i guess it was the "royal treatment" comment that really irritated me. it was kind of a jerk thing to say, PLUS it was a weak deflection of my offer.

 

but whatever. i'm not going anywhere. i'm right here. either get back to me on my offer, or don't.

 

btw, motel 6 and chinese take-out will suit me fine; i don't need to be catered to.

 

I didn't reject you! I like you too! I was feeling kinda awkward, because I haven't seen you talk about what it is you do, but you talk about doing it all the time out in the open.

 

I've already sent e-mails to a couple of people that I know. But it's the middle of summer break, I have no idea where they are. I'm not a science major and I'm not buddy-buddy with any professors that I feel comfortable enough sending anyone an e-mail about someone of whose methods I barely know. But I know plenty of people who are connected, and I'm in the process of contacting them (two e-mails have already gone out).

 

So, it's going to take some time.

 

 

No offense to you Hundun, but you gotta understand...... from the perspective of the greater world, people from your field aren't the most credible

 

Seriously, you are not the first person who has gone around making grandiose claims, then when asked to perform says, "yeah well if you pay for everything." From a broke-ass college student like myself, any time you're asking someone else to pay for you is asking for the royal treatment

 

And I'm glad to hear you don't mind motel 6 and chinese food!

 

And as long as we're swapping friendly explanations of what irks us, stuff like this:

 

YOU either care to seek the truth of it or YOU don't.

 

Irks me the most. Because for years I've spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours bending over backwards, trying to get in contact with teachers that supposedly had "oh-so-great" skills that could only be demonstrated "in person".... but then it got around to show time, they fell flat on their face! All while giving off some reasons for why my disbelief in them was disrupting the qi flow. MY DISBELIEF? After all I've done to make it to them?

 

That's kinda when it dawned on me that I had it backwards the whole time. I was taking peoples' word for it that they could do what they said they could do, and losing money out of my own pocket trying to accommodate them, when they were really not doing anything.

 

So, sorry if I meet some of your claims with skepticism. But from past experience, most of the things you are saying are also things that many frauds have said to cover their own tracks!

 

Not to say you aren't a fraud but..... gotta be careful, ya know?

Edited July 19, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Aetherous]

No offense to you Hundun, but you gotta understand...... from the perspective of the greater world, people from your field aren't the most credible

 

This is very true.

 

Look at it from the point of view of a cancer patient. So many claims are bogus, and so many things don't work. Wouldn't it be nice to have a reliable and proven alternative therapy?

 

But in all honesty that doesn't exist.

 

People always reference Chunyi Lin as a reliable source because some doctors at Mayo Clinic like him, but where are the claims of curing cancer and AIDs? Here are 4 pages of their research...

 

http://www.learningstrategies.com/Qigong/Study1.asp

 

Why is cancer not being cured in humans?

[Sloppy Zhang]

This is very true.

 

Look at it from the point of view of a cancer patient. So many claims are bogus, and so many things don't work. Wouldn't it be nice to have a reliable and proven alternative therapy?

 

But in all honesty that doesn't exist.

 

People always reference Chunyi Lin as a reliable source because some doctors at Mayo Clinic like him, but where are the claims of curing cancer and AIDs? Here are 4 pages of their research...

 

http://www.learningstrategies.com/Qigong/Study1.asp

 

Why is cancer not being cured in humans?

 

Personally, I do believe it's possible to cure cancer, to cure HIV/AIDS, to mend broken limbs, to develop "psychic" abilities. I think there is great potential in energy work and energy healing.

 

But at the same time, I try to remain as objective and impartial when looking at a situation. And I have a large bias to overcome. So, I don't really mind when I hear people say, "oh well it's probably possible to do X, Y, and Z." That's neat.

 

But when people say, "I've done X,Y, and Z", that's when, IMHO, the game changes. That's when we start getting into the realm of things that are provable.

 

And that's also kinda getting into the subject matter of the "New Age bullies" thread. Because there ARE people suffering from cancer, or HIV/AIDS. There are innocent people wounded by street violence or wars, and have trouble getting the modern medicine cures. Then someone comes along and says, rather nonchalantly "oh well there's a cure for HIV/AIDS", "oh yeah, I can cure cancer, I know a couple people who do it all the time." It's like, stop.... time for you to start putting up those kind of skills. Proving them, and then teaching them.

 

Because that kind of stuffy can really, really do a LOT of good to a LOT of people. And if you aren't going to go to whatever lengths is necessary to bring this to the world, if you're going to list off a bunch of conditions under which you will demonstrate your abilities, if you're going to come up with a bunch of excuses as to why you couldn't perform in a certain situation..... you should just stop talking.

 

(this wasn't directed at any particular forum member, rather, at the general shenanigans that are allowed to go on in the spiritual/alternative medicine community)

Edited July 19, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Aetherous]

Because there ARE people suffering from cancer, or HIV/AIDS. There are innocent people wounded by street violence or wars, and have trouble getting the modern medicine cures. Then someone comes along and says, rather nonchalantly "oh well there's a cure for HIV/AIDS", "oh yeah, I can cure cancer, I know a couple people who do it all the time." It's like, stop time for you to start putting up those kind of skills. Proving them, and then teaching them.

 

Yeah, totally agreed.

 

If I could cure cancer and AIDs, I'd be talking to my state university yesterday!

 

It's all about helping others, and no one is being helped as long as the general opinion is "oh that stuff doesn't work". However, if you have published research showing that it does, the opinions can change!

[Sahaj Nath]

I didn't reject you! I like you too! I was feeling kinda awkward, because I haven't seen you talk about what it is you do, but you talk about doing it all the time out in the open.

 

I've already sent e-mails to a couple of people that I know. But it's the middle of summer break, I have no idea where they are. I'm not a science major and I'm not buddy-buddy with any professors that I feel comfortable enough sending anyone an e-mail about someone of whose methods I barely know. But I know plenty of people who are connected, and I'm in the process of contacting them (two e-mails have already gone out).

 

So, it's going to take some time.

 

fair enough. just keep me posted.

 

 

No offense to you Hundun, but you gotta understand...... from the perspective of the greater world, people from your field aren't the most credible

 

Seriously, you are not the first person who has gone around making grandiose claims, then when asked to perform says, "yeah well if you pay for everything." From a broke-ass college student like myself, any time you're asking someone else to pay for you is asking for the royal treatment

 

And I'm glad to hear you don't mind motel 6 and chinese food!

 

i hear that, and i can appreciate where you're coming from. i wasn't asking YOU to pay, but just for those professors to use a little bit of that research money to get my ass out there, that's all.

 

and to be honest, i don't find MOST of the people in my "field" to be credible, so i understand that point as well. but even the ones who ARE credible might not meet your standards, as per your language in some of these comments. no energy workers can claim to have "THE CURE" for anything. there's no "ONE SET" of protocols that works for everyone. and we certainly can't tell anyone to stop with their conventional medicine and trust us completely. we can go to prison for that! well, truth be told, i've broken this law numerous times, but only with terminal patients that the doctors had already sent home to die.

 

there's a difference between having cured cancer and having the cure for cancer. there's a big difference, and i think that needs to be made clear.

 

 

i lose a lot of fights. and it hurts, because i fall in love with my patients, and i go out of my way to get invested in their healing process. but i also win some of those fights, too. and i couldn't continue to do what i do if i didn't get those victories.

 

people show up with their own unique set of conditions, some of whom just need a boost to their spleen, pancreas, and/or kidneys, and they recover dramatically from as far out as stage-4 terminal. others need a lot more specialized attention and treatments for a much longer term, and they might only be at stage 2. with the addition of dietary changes, herbal tonics, and purified, alkaline water (which can just be a squirt of lemon in the water), then the results tend to be a lot more favorable. but you might be surprised at how reluctant even sick & dying people can be to change their lifestyle & habits.

 

one of my old clients, whom i hadn't seen since March, just died recently. stage-4 metastatic lymphoma. 41 tumors in her body. she was TERRIFIED of dying so young (mid-20's), and even though the doctors had NO answers for her, she couldn't find it in herself to trust the holistic process. we had a small team of people working with her, FREE OF CHARGE, and she just wouldn't do her part. and guess what? she STILL got good results! before she abandoned our prescriptions entirely, her scans showed a 25-50% decrease in 40 of her 41 tumors. and the final tumor, the main one, had stopped growing & was showing signs of degeneration. and this was someone who WASN'T following all the recommendations!

 

you'd think such results would inspire trust in the process, but it didn't. instead she went back to chemo & radiation. she abandoned the holistic process altogether. and now she's no longer with us.

 

it's not just a matter of what kind of disease a person has, but ALSO, what kind of person has the disease. everything factors in. everything. not just isolated, material objects. losing her was heartbreaking, because i absolutely believe that she could have completely recovered. it was her mind, not her body, which was unwilling to heal.

 

 

...Because for years I've spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours bending over backwards, trying to get in contact with teachers that supposedly had "oh-so-great" skills that could only be demonstrated "in person".... but then it got around to show time, they fell flat on their face! All while giving off some reasons for why my disbelief in them was disrupting the qi flow. MY DISBELIEF? After all I've done to make it to them?

 

yeah, you won't hear that from me. you don't have to believe in water in order to get wet. your quality of mind does have some effect, but "belief" is not a requirement. but i'm not so sure that what i do as a healer qualifies as "oh-so-great" skills. you're not gonna see lightning bolts shooting out my eyes or anything.

 

That's kinda when it dawned on me that I had it backwards the whole time. I was taking peoples' word for it that they could do what they said they could do, and losing money out of my own pocket trying to accommodate them, when they were really not doing anything.

 

So, sorry if I meet some of your claims with skepticism. But from past experience, most of the things you are saying are also things that many frauds have said to cover their own tracks!

 

Not to say you aren't a fraud but..... gotta be careful, ya know?

 

yeah, i know. i'm not a fan of frauds, either. and my standards are pretty damn high when people start talking parlor tricks, but that's not what i'm about. i'm not gonna levitate object or throw people across the room. and i don't know if i'll be able to mend a broken arm or cure an illness in just any random person, but i know that my ratio of positive effect is about 8 out of 10. so while i can't guarantee specific results, i have absolute confidence that i can demonstrate some impressive and statistically significant things, and i'm willing to put my name on the line to do it.

 

i'm not the best. not even close. but i'm pretty damn good at what i do. good enough to show up.

[Sloppy Zhang]

fair enough. just keep me posted.

 

 

 

 

i hear that, and i can appreciate where you're coming from. i wasn't asking YOU to pay, but just for those professors to use a little bit of that research money to get my ass out there, that's all.

 

and to be honest, i don't find MOST of the people in my "field" to be credible, so i understand that point as well. but even the ones who ARE credible might not meet your standards, as per your language in some of these comments. no energy workers can claim to have "THE CURE" for anything. there's no "ONE SET" of protocols that works for everyone. and we certainly can't tell anyone to stop with their conventional medicine and trust us completely. we can go to prison for that! well, truth be told, i've broken this law numerous times, but only with terminal patients that the doctors had already sent home to die.

 

there's a difference between having cured cancer and having the cure for cancer. there's a big difference, and i think that needs to be made clear.

 

 

i lose a lot of fights. and it hurts, because i fall in love with my patients, and i go out of my way to get invested in their healing process. but i also win some of those fights, too. and i couldn't continue to do what i do if i didn't get those victories.

 

people show up with their own unique set of conditions, some of whom just need a boost to their spleen, pancreas, and/or kidneys, and they recover dramatically from as far out as stage-4 terminal. others need a lot more specialized attention and treatments for a much longer term, and they might only be at stage 2. with the addition of dietary changes, herbal tonics, and purified, alkaline water (which can just be a squirt of lemon in the water), then the results tend to be a lot more favorable. but you might be surprised at how reluctant even sick & dying people can be to change their lifestyle & habits.

 

one of my old clients, whom i hadn't seen since March, just died recently. stage-4 metastatic lymphoma. 41 tumors in her body. she was TERRIFIED of dying so young (mid-20's), and even though the doctors had NO answers for her, she couldn't find it in herself to trust the holistic process. we had a small team of people working with her, FREE OF CHARGE, and she just wouldn't do her part. and guess what? she STILL got good results! before she abandoned our prescriptions entirely, her scans showed a 25-50% decrease in 40 of her 41 tumors. and the final tumor, the main one, had stopped growing & was showing signs of degeneration. and this was someone who WASN'T following all the recommendations!

 

you'd think such results would inspire trust in the process, but it didn't. instead she went back to chemo & radiation. she abandoned the holistic process altogether. and now she's no longer with us.

 

it's not just a matter of what kind of disease a person has, but ALSO, what kind of person has the disease. everything factors in. everything. not just isolated, material objects. losing her was heartbreaking, because i absolutely believe that she could have completely recovered. it was her mind, not her body, which was unwilling to heal.

 

 

 

 

yeah, you won't hear that from me. you don't have to believe in water in order to get wet. your quality of mind does have some effect, but "belief" is not a requirement. but i'm not so sure that what i do as a healer qualifies as "oh-so-great" skills. you're not gonna see lightning bolts shooting out my eyes or anything.

 

 

 

yeah, i know. i'm not a fan of frauds, either. and my standards are pretty damn high when people start talking parlor tricks, but that's not what i'm about. i'm not gonna levitate object or throw people across the room. and i don't know if i'll be able to mend a broken arm or cure an illness in just any random person, but i know that my ratio of positive effect is about 8 out of 10. so while i can't guarantee specific results, i have absolute confidence that i can demonstrate some impressive and statistically significant things, and i'm willing to put my name on the line to do it.

 

i'm not the best. not even close. but i'm pretty damn good at what i do. good enough to show up.

 

Thanks for all that

 

I'll let you know if I can drum up some interest from anyone willing and able to do some tests.

[C T]

Hundun,

 

You have made some pretty bold assertions here.

 

Wish you all the best in furthering your claims. If they can be verified then the world owes you a BIG one...

 

 

 

Regards.

[goldisheavy]

http://www.youtube.com/user/yogameditation?blend=1&ob=4

 

 

here you go goldisheavy

 

Just go to journic.com

 

Ah, I remember this guy. I don't agree with everything he says, but he does have one video I found very insightful. It was about healing and karma. In it he was essentially saying that you've worked hard to get your disease, and if the disease were just taken away superficially, without changing your state of mind at a deeper level, you'd likely re-manifest the illness again. So real healing means real change on the inside. I don't think it's true for every condition, but it's true for a lot of chronic conditions like asthma, skin rashes, allergy, and so on. It's definitely not true for a broken arm healing inside a cast. Anyway, I thought that video was pretty good. He actually explained it even better than my brief summary here.

 

On the other hand, some of his videos, especially the ones where he talks about magic, are completely misguided (or just plain ignorant). He doesn't really understand magic because he is a physicalist, and so he can't honestly reconcile magic with the laws of physics, and thus, he is constantly grasping at straws and is looking at weird corner cases and so on. He's looking for some kind of gap in the laws of physics or a gap in how we see the world. In other words, magic for this guy, is a second-class citizen. It's not the primary activity of the world, but something that exists in the shadowy corners. I completely disagree with that.

 

As for his ego? I don't think he has a big ego at all. I'm sure he has some ego, but he actually strikes me as a decent, albeit somewhat ignorant, guy. And by "decent" I don't mean he's up to my standard of "decent," because he is selling things that he has no business selling in my opinion. I mean "decent" in the more general sense, not my personal sense. As it stands, while I try to imagine he is just misguided, but in the back of my mind I can't get rid of a more cynical thought, saying that he's exploiting people for money.

 

But even if you're a thief or an exploiter, it doesn't mean your ego is big. You can be a thief who doesn't think too much of oneself. At the same time, you can look like a humble monk who rarely opens one's mouth, and think a whole lot of yourself, and that's a huge ego, but you'd never know this, unless you could read the thoughts. So unless you can read minds, which I don't think anyone on this forum can, I'd reserve your judgment on the size of the ego. You don't know. How big or small the ego is, is a hidden quality. You can't reliably discern the size of the ego from outward behavior and appearances. You have to know more about someone's motivations, ideas, beliefs, and basically someone's inner state of mind, to judge the size of ego. Plus, having a small ego is not a good thing either, but this post is already too long.

Edited July 19, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Starjumper]

Irks me the most. Because for years I've spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours bending over backwards, trying to get in contact with teachers that supposedly had "oh-so-great" skills that could only be demonstrated "in person".... but then it got around to show time, they fell flat on their face! All while giving off some reasons for why my disbelief in them was disrupting the qi flow. MY DISBELIEF? After all I've done to make it to them?

That's unfortunate, i didn't know there were so many flakes ... I can't type with this TENS unit on my chest - later.

[goldisheavy]

OK, so I browsed a bit on journeyic and I found this post mewtwo:

 

yes it is. One way of doing this is to imagine you are sucking energy from the ground into your body and then you put it to use like imagine yourself growing a tail or such.

 

It's actually harder than that. If an ordinary person tries this, it won't work. Why not? Because imagination's power is limited by beliefs. Most people believe that the world, our bodies, and everything imaginable is physical in nature. As physical stuff, it doesn't change easily, and it changes only according to very inconvenient and unwieldy physical rules. So for example, to change a lighter element into gold is theoretically possible using nuclear fusion, but to do that would require equipment and private property worth billions of dollars due to the limitations of the physical laws.

 

The hardest thing about magic is not really intent per se, but rather, understanding how beliefs condition the intent.

 

To really transform one's body one literally has to let go of the whole world as we know it. And only then will imagination's scope be sufficient enough to create that kind of appearance. This is not going to be practical for most people. Most people have goals, hopes, desires and dreams for the physicality. They can't just let go of it. On a deep level, this very physicality is itself an act of magic and intent. In other words, we wanted to experience these kinds of limitations and here they are. So why would you stop wanting something that you wanted at first? It's possible, but it will require a significant change.

 

If you wanted to eat ice cream all your life, why would one day you stop? It's unlikely. The likely thing is to continue the trend. So if you enjoyed ice cream in the past, you are likely to continue enjoying it in the future. If you've built up this appearance of physicality in the past and have enjoyed it, chances are, you still enjoy it, and will continue with it in the future. So most talk of magic remains purely theoretical. It's like an ice cream lover talking about a world without ice cream. It's purely theoretical. As soon as the discussion is over, you stop over for more fine ice cream and things are back to the usual.

[Birch]

"You can't reliably discern the size of the ego from outward behavior and appearances."

 

Isn't that a bit physicalist ?

 

I suggest ego doesn't have a "size" per se, but it might have a long tail and fluffy ears. Now go try to catch one and then we can look at how big it might be

 

I reckon it's not a "thing" at all, it's a "doing" that doesn't realize what it's doing.

 

How long is a piece of string??

[goldisheavy]

"You can't reliably discern the size of the ego from outward behavior and appearances."

 

Isn't that a bit physicalist ?

 

There is no relation to physicalism here. Physicalism is belief that the ultimate nature of everything is physical. However, let's say the ultimate nature of everything is psychological instead of physical, like in dreams. Do you think characters in my dreams can accurately gauge my state of mind? Absolutely not, unless that's part of the dream, which is very rare (in my case, it's so rare that it hasn't happened yet). How about the other way around? The same is also true the other way around. I don't know the state of anyone's mind in my dreams. Nor do I need to. I just need to know my own state, and that's more than enough. There is nothing else to know.

 

I suggest ego doesn't have a "size" per se, but it might have a long tail and fluffy ears. Now go try to catch one and then we can look at how big it might be

 

I reckon it's not a "thing" at all, it's a "doing" that doesn't realize what it's doing.

 

How long is a piece of string??

 

Ego is nothing. Don't obsess on it too much. One thing I found was that I could leave myself behind, but not my family. Attachment to this world, as we know it, goes far beyond our personal ego. People waste so much time bashing the ego and considering it. Ego doesn't matter at all. It's neither here nor there. It doesn't help or harm anything for the most part.

 

Ego has no role to play in spirituality, not a positive role and not a negative role either. The only important thing about ego is during mundane day to day life when you want to be accepted and respected, and when you feel someone else is seemingly too self-assured, you consider that to be egoism, since it may cause you to doubt yourself. If other people are not sure of themselves and stammer and stutter, that makes you feel good, because you feel confident next to someone who isn't confident at all. So when someone is assertive and opinionated, we feel threatened.

 

In other words, seeing big egos in other people is an indication of having a fragile and a big ego oneself, and it's also an indication that you are busy with social jockeying. Spirituality, on the other hand, is not about social jockeying, and thus the sizes of egos just do not matter on the path. This is why, for example, ego is not mentioned even once in Chuang Tzu or Tao Te Ching or any other important document. The people who talk most about egos are modern people who are jockeying for a social position and not the ancient masters. And in Buddhism, any comparison of oneself and others, be it in favor of oneself, or in favor of the other, or neutral, all are frowned upon and all are called "conceit." So, for example, someone who thinks of oneself as lesser than others, is conceited in Buddhist understanding. So any comparison of oneself and others is conceit. This means any discussion of ego size, which necessarily must involve a comparison of some sort, is conceit from the Buddhist POV. So I don't know any tradition that really bashes the ego.

Edited July 19, 2010 by goldisheavy