Daoist Sitting in Oblivion vs Xstian Apophatic Prayer

[adept]

A poem on Sitting In Oblivion.

 

In a thatch hut all day I sit and forget opportunities,

Peacefully listening to the flowing spring my worries are lost.

Beyond the mountains and stars the birds have all returned,

I am imbued with poetic thoughts of flying into the clouds.

 

Lou Xinhu (1880-1950）

Edited July 20, 2010 by adept

[adept]

Great quote adept. Now, will you continue your membership at TTB? Love the poems that you share. And 365.

 

I will continue to post because of the kind messages from some of you.

I'll take Marblehead's advice, not to get involved in pointless arguments, or religious debates.

Thanks.

[Brian]

..

[gendao]

Ah yes, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, and all that came after them, those were beginners right? But the grand people of today are the masters. Incredible indeed.

So, if these guys all sat down at a table together - would they agree..or disagree?

 

How would they view each other's level of attainment? With mutual respect...or would a pecking order develop?

[Vajrahridaya]

So, if these guys all sat down at a table together - would they agree..or disagree?

 

How would they view each other's level of attainment? With mutual respect...or would a pecking order develop?

 

Only a Buddha knows! My Rinpoche has great respect for Jesus though. As I do.

[Pero]

So, if these guys all sat down at a table together - would they agree..or disagree?

 

How would they view each other's level of attainment? With mutual respect...or would a pecking order develop?

 

They might be respectful to each other, but that doesn't mean they'd agree.

[rookie]

They are not the same. For one thing all christian methods start with the belief in a God out there and a me here. Comparing all the large and small differences is not interesting from here. Are you more interested in comparing religions, or realizing truth? All religions are a cloak, a tool, mostly missused.

The thing that they have in common is they are both methods infused with a belief system.

 

How do these come about? Someone has realized something and tries to communicate it in words. It always falls short. These can be helpful pointers, but it is not truth.

[3bob]

...along the lines of opening oneself up: It does not matter what form or system you practice - you will be tested and the farther you progress the more severe will be those tests, that is until attaining the point of no-return. (or of no possibility of falling or being turned by the hunger of the abyss)

 

Om

[Vajrahridaya]

...along the lines of opening oneself up: It does not matter what form or system you practice - you will be tested and the farther you progress the more severe will be those tests, that is until attaining the point of no-return. (or of no possibility of falling or being turned by the hunger of the abyss)

 

Om

 

Ain't that the truth!

[rookie]

...along the lines of opening oneself up: It does not matter what form or system you practice - you will be tested and the farther you progress the more severe will be those tests, that is until attaining the point of no-return. (or of no possibility of falling or being turned by the hunger of the abyss)

 

Om

 

That seems to be true, until one discovers that some are found by the truth without searching for it or even just "opening oneself up". But the opening oneself, or seeing through, or whatever is common to these practices, sure.

[3bob]

Ain't that the truth!

 

 

[Spectrum]

....

Edited July 21, 2010 by Spectrum

[宁]

Soo... not one "I don't know" yet.

Let me start that line of thought for you: haven't tried them all to a proficient level, so how should I know?

[C T]

Soo... not one "I don't know" yet.

Let me start that line of thought for you: haven't tried them all to a proficient level, so how should I know?

(ahem) I think you are just being modest here, L1. Usually the more proficient ones would be the first to admit they know not...

 

The higher one goes, the less one needs to know. Less burden, more air-miles!!

[Brian]

..

[Stigweard]

This one will stir things up Latest comment on the subject by Michael Saso:

 

Christian apophasis, Buddha's 3rd noble truth 滅，Daoist sitting in oblivion 坐忘, ALL mystic systems, require "no judgment-concept-image" before "union."

[Vajrahridaya]

(ahem) I think you are just being modest here, L1. Usually the more proficient ones would be the first to admit they know not...

 

The higher one goes, the less one needs to know. Less burden, more air-miles!!

 

The Buddha knew when he entered the 4th jhana at death which is connected to the celestial manifest realm of peerless devas from where he could still enact the Sambhogakaya, or the enjoyment body of energetic teaching for those available to that level.

[Vajrahridaya]

This one will stir things up Latest comment on the subject by Michael Saso:

Christian apophasis, Buddha's 3rd noble truth 滅，Daoist sitting in oblivion 坐忘, ALL mystic systems, require "no judgment-concept-image" before "union."

 

Well... Buddhism doesn't aim for union in the same sense as most traditions consider.

 

Only the union of method and wisdom, or insight and action... not union with an inherent existence of all. Buddhas cut through "that" and empty "that" of the potential for absorption. Basically, "that" is the pull of the unconscious mystery that underlies all our conditional joy's and suffering and to merge with that mystery as a primordial self or primordial nature of all that is or is not, is a high goal, but not Buddhahood.

 

 

Disclaimer:

This is according to the Buddhist teachings from Pali Suttas on as well as my own direct experience based on insight drawn from meditation and contemplation. :lol: It's funny that I feel like I have to put this in order that the overly sensitive may feel a sense of justice. But, compassion is an offering of compromise from the intention of selfless service.

 

"I come in peace," said the alien.

[C T]

The Buddha knew when he entered the 4th jhana at death which is connected to the celestial manifest realm of peerless devas from where he could still enact the Sambhogakaya, or the enjoyment body of energetic teaching for those available to that level.

(ahem) but we not that level yet bro.. but thanks for the quick reminder that if Buddha can cook, so can we!! haha

 

(did you ever watch a cooking program on tv years ago called "Wok With Yan"? He was the guy who inspired millions thru his wok skills at creating simple, fuss-less and quick asian food. His tag line, at the end of every program: "If Yan can cook, so can you!" - somehow this has stuck in my head after all these years )

 

 

here is a demo of him boning a chicken in 18 secs. but before that he does 'chi gong' first with the bird!!

[Vajrahridaya]

(ahem) but we not that level yet bro.. but thanks for the quick reminder that if Buddha can cook, so can we!! haha

 

 

Yes, but we sometimes think that what makes us feel really great inside is the wisdom and we get attached to this idea, so it's always good to continually look higher and we do have examples of what we can evolve more towards, in the most non-dualistic sense of that statement.

 

(did you ever watch a cooking program on tv years ago called "Wok With Yan"? He was the guy who inspired millions thru his wok skills at creating simple, fuss-less and quick asian food. His tag line, at the end of every program: "If Yan can cook, so can you!" - somehow this has stuck in my head after all these years )

 

I don't recall if I have. But that's awesome! I have the same occurrence. I remember things that someone in my past has said that really made an indelible impression on my mind. I like it when they are more towards the positive impressions... eh?

 

here is a demo of him boning a chicken in 18 secs. but before that he does 'chi gong' first with the bird!!

 

Oh yeah... I think my stepmom used to watch this, she's Chinese.

 

EDIT: That's so funny... it's like he's a sports commentator and massage teacher for a coroner.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[altiora]

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Funnily enough, the current Bishop of Rome in his previous role as a Cardinal declined to recommend that the declaration of heresy against Meister Eckhart be rescinded.

 

Oh yes, the current Poop head of the Catholic Church.

 

Yes, I've read everything available from Meister Eckhart... well, that's available in English at least.

[宁]

(ahem) I think you are just being modest here, L1. Usually the more proficient ones would be the first to admit they know not...

 

The higher one goes, the less one needs to know. Less burden, more air-miles!!

 

You are (way) too kind

 

I agree with the last part: less burden. The more you don't know, the easiest to receive the novelty. And in our field of research, it may be a much needed 'ability'.

It also has the downside: being too naive.

 

 

 

To make a small contribution to the thread though: my impression is that although the goals may sound more or less simmilar, they may be in fact different.

Think of it this way: imagine the planet, with all it's inhabitants shooting their awareness upward, from each point of the globe out into infinity. Like rays of awareness shooting into different directions...

Based on that image, you'd expect that humanity can only converge one way: projecting their awareness deep into the Earth itself, there all the threads of awareness can naturally join...

 

Edit: Regarding this, Mantak Chia told us at a seminar, that it's very strange that all people aim for the Sky, wanting to get off the planet. Too little apreciation for our Mother Earth, that feeds us and keeps us sheltered, it enchants us with the beauties of nature and keeps us tuned to the universe.

Can't help thinking: how would a path that is involved with exploring the Inner and the Outer Earth look like?

Edited July 22, 2010 by Little1

[Vajrahridaya]

You are (way) too kind

 

I agree with the last part: less burden. The more you don't know, the easiest to receive the novelty. And in our field of research, it may be a much needed 'ability'.

It also has the downside: being too naive.

 

 

Indeed, ignorance may be blissful, but it's not the bliss of liberation which sees through all knowledge through actually seeing it directly and thoroughly.

 

To make a small contribution to the thread though: my impression is that although the goals may sound more or less simmilar, they may be in fact different.

Think of it this way: imagine the planet, with all it's inhabitants shooting their awareness upward, from each point of the globe out into infinity. Like rays of awareness shooting into different directions...

Based on that image, you'd expect that humanity can only converge one way: projecting their awareness deep into the Earth itself, there all the threads of awareness can naturally join...

 

This is a nice image and I've definitely had this image plenty of times. Many times in NYC, shooting my energy down towards the center of the Earth was my only way of over coming many walking demons on NYC subways and streets who mistook my light for inocense. So... had ta show dem a ting a 2 bout grounding power.

 

At the same time, the Earth does not come from itself, so this too is not the end all be all and finding a comfort zone here is thus also not the path to complete liberation. Though this view you have imaged is definitely a way on the path.

 

Edit: Regarding this, Mantak Chia told us at a seminar, that it's very strange that all people aim for the Sky, wanting to get off the planet. Too little apreciation for our Mother Earth, that feeds us and keeps us sheltered, it enchants us with the beauties of nature and keeps us tuned to the universe.

Can't help thinking: how would a path that is involved with exploring the Inner and the Outer Earth look like?

 

Buddhism sees right through the Earth and grounds itself here quite well while seeing through it's impermanent nature.

 

Our higher examples of this take conscious rebirth here again and again in order to show the way of how to properly be here, without being attached to Earth as some sort of ultimate nature.

 

The Earth comes from the Sun and this sun comes from this galaxy and this galaxy comes from the universe and this universe comes from the multi-verse of the cosmos and this cosmos comes from the previous cosmos... so on and so forth add infinitum. so to take up Earth as an ultimate refuge would not be a reflection of full awareness.

[Vajrahridaya]

Oh yes, the current Poop head of the Catholic Church.

 

Yes, I've read everything available from Meister Eckhart... well, that's available in English at least.

 

Though, as a disclaimer. I do respect Meister Eckhart very deeply, but I still feel that his wisdom comes from the experiences associated with the formless realms of samadhi or jhana and thus is not complete insight into the how and the why of everything.

 

Explanation of the formless states of meditation:

 

"The Arupa Jhānas

 

Beyond the four jhānas lie four attainments, referred to in the early texts as aruppas. These are also referred to in commentarial literature as immaterial/the formless jhānas (arūpajhānas), also translated as The Formless Dimensions:

 

1. Dimension of Infinite Space - In the dimension of infinite space there are - "the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, unification of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention"

2. Dimension of Infinite Consciousness - In the Dimension of infinite consciousness there is "the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, unification of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention"

3. Dimension of Nothingness - In the dimension of nothingness, there is "the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention"

4. Dimension of Neither Perception nor Non-Perception - About the role of this jhana it is said: "He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him."[11]"

 

You can see that all of Meister Eckharts poetry aligns quite nicely with these attainments of nothingness and infinite consciousness, but it does not yet see dependent origination as he associates these deep formless states as a source, or Self of all. Thus he is still seeing independent origination, that all things come from an independent and ineffable source.

 

Ineffable: 1. Too great or extreme to be expressed or described in words. 2. Too sacred to be uttered.

 

He very well teaches the platform for benefiting the 4 immeasurables though which is very, very good;

 

"The sublime attitudes (brahmavihāra) are a series of four virtues and Buddhist meditation practices designed to cultivate those virtues. They are also known as the four "immeasurables" (Sanskrit: apramāṇa).[1]

 

According to the Metta Sutta, Shākyamuni Buddha held that cultivation of the four immeasurables has the power to cause the practitioner to be re-born into a Brahma realm (Pāli: Brahmaloka)[A realm where one still has blissful belief in a prime origin, will, source or God of all].[2] The meditator is instructed to radiate out to all beings in all directions the mental states of: 1) loving-kindness or benevolence, 2) compassion, 3) sympathetic joy, and, 4) equanimity. The four immeasurables are also found in Patañjali's Yoga Sutras (1.33),[3] a text composed long after the beginning of Buddhism and substantially influenced by Buddhism.[4][5] These virtues are also highly regarded by Buddhists as powerful antidotes to negative mental states (non-virtues) such as avarice, anger and pride."

Edited July 22, 2010 by Vajrahridaya