Daoist Sitting in Oblivion vs Xstian Apophatic Prayer

[宁]

This is a nice image and I've definitely had this image plenty of times. Many times in NYC, shooting my energy down towards the center of the Earth was my only way of over coming many walking demons on NYC subways and streets who mistook my light for inocense. So... had ta show dem a ting a 2 bout grounding power.

 

Nice one.

[Vajrahridaya]

Nice one.

 

Thank you... yes, I had to uphold the practice of awareness in places all over Harlem, Jamaica; Queens and Bedstuy; Brooklyn as I lived in these places during various times. Not to mention Oakland, Cali which is actually even more intense in the negative sense than anything NYC has to offer as there is much less police presence getting in the way of violent crime. So, just going to the store was an inner battle in maintaining light, peace and goodness within and cloaking it around those that do indeed have extra sensory perception.

 

Whew...

[C T]

 

I like it when they are more towards the positive impressions... eh?

 

That's true bro. I would not worry too much if i were you... appearances are seen for what they are, eh? Neither good nor bad.

 

"Do not investigate phenomena; investigate the mind instead. If you investigate the mind, you will know the one thing which resolves all. If you do not investigate the mind, you can know everything but be forever stuck on one." -- Padmasambhava

[C T]

You are (way) too kind

 

I agree with the last part: less burden. The more you don't know, the easiest to receive the novelty. And in our field of research, it may be a much needed 'ability'.

It also has the downside: being too naive.

 

 

 

To make a small contribution to the thread though: my impression is that although the goals may sound more or less simmilar, they may be in fact different.

Think of it this way: imagine the planet, with all it's inhabitants shooting their awareness upward, from each point of the globe out into infinity. Like rays of awareness shooting into different directions...

Based on that image, you'd expect that humanity can only converge one way: projecting their awareness deep into the Earth itself, there all the threads of awareness can naturally join...

 

Edit: Regarding this, Mantak Chia told us at a seminar, that it's very strange that all people aim for the Sky, wanting to get off the planet. Too little apreciation for our Mother Earth, that feeds us and keeps us sheltered, it enchants us with the beauties of nature and keeps us tuned to the universe.

Can't help thinking: how would a path that is involved with exploring the Inner and the Outer Earth look like?

Being without burden is quite different from being naive.

 

One who is naive (in Buddhist circles - as an example) goes around telling everyone that he is so blissed out and is beyond distraction and has that self-inflating trip going. That is the epitome of delusion for a buddhist. And i see this all the time, in retreat settings especially. He thinks he is free, but he carries much around. And these guys have been practicing like for years!!

 

Those who can remain in non-distraction do not usually say they are; they simply go about doing what is at hand - usually these are the ones who stay behind to put away the zafus, arrange the mats, stack the retreat manuals, attend to the altar's needs, sweep the grounds, etc. It makes no difference to them whether they are leading the retreat or emptying out the garbage cans. To these souls, all is simply 'one taste', and takes delight in this knowing.

 

Such individuals are tuned in to themselves, to others... deeply. In this way, how can their intentions and actions ever harm anything? If one day humanity evolves to a point where more people are like this, Mother Earth will rejoice. Its like a celebration for the return of the prodigal child... Now this could well be a tat naive to be thinking this way. But still its a good motivation to keep one awake to the possibilities.

Edited July 22, 2010 by CowTao

[Vajrahridaya]

That's true bro. I would not worry too much if i were you... appearances are seen for what they are, eh? Neither good nor bad.

 

"Do not investigate phenomena; investigate the mind instead. If you investigate the mind, you will know the one thing which resolves all. If you do not investigate the mind, you can know everything but be forever stuck on one." -- Padmasambhava

 

One of my favorite yogi's.

[3bob]

Indeed, ignorance may be blissful, but it's not the bliss of liberation which sees through all knowledge through actually seeing it directly and thoroughly.

 

 

 

This is a nice image and I've definitely had this image plenty of times. Many times in NYC, shooting my energy down towards the center of the Earth was my only way of over coming many walking demons on NYC subways and streets who mistook my light for inocense. So... had ta show dem a ting a 2 bout grounding power.

 

At the same time, the Earth does not come from itself, so this too is not the end all be all and finding a comfort zone here is thus also not the path to complete liberation. Though this view you have imaged is definitely a way on the path.

 

 

 

Buddhism sees right through the Earth and grounds itself here quite well while seeing through it's impermanent nature.

 

Our higher examples of this take conscious rebirth here again and again in order to show the way of how to properly be here, without being attached to Earth as some sort of ultimate nature.

 

The Earth comes from the Sun and this sun comes from this galaxy and this galaxy comes from the universe and this universe comes from the multi-verse of the cosmos and this cosmos comes from the previous cosmos... so on and so forth add infinitum. so to take up Earth as an ultimate refuge would not be a reflection of full awareness.

 

"The Earth comes from the Sun and this sun comes from this galaxy and this galaxy comes from the universe and this universe comes from the multi-verse of the cosmos and this cosmos comes from" Om... "so on and so forth add infinitum..."

 

Hello V., A modification above of your saying into my interpretation... for all is traced back to Om, and inside Om is Roaring Silence, and inside roaring silence is that which mind can not reach...so to take up mind and its impermanence as an ultimate refuge would not be a reflection of rest.

 

Om

Edited July 22, 2010 by 3bob

[C T]

...so to take up mind and its impermanence as an ultimate refuge would not be a reflection of rest.

 

Its not appropriate to take up 'mind' as refuge, neither relative nor ultimate. One way to look at it is to understand how mind sticks to things/phenomenon, and recognize the process of how this could lead to all types of distractive pursuits. This is the buddhist notion: first understand the causes of delusion, and then cut thru it as it arises with one-pointed seeing. In Dzogchen its said: Liberate one's thoughts at the moment of seeing. In Zen it is like to arrive at the state of 'no mind'.

Edited July 22, 2010 by CowTao

[Vajrahridaya]

"The Earth comes from the Sun and this sun comes from this galaxy and this galaxy comes from the universe and this universe comes from the multi-verse of the cosmos and this cosmos comes from" Om... "so on and so forth add infinitum..."

 

Hello V., A modification above of your saying into my interpretation... for all is traced back to Om, and inside Om is Roaring Silence, and inside roaring silence is that which mind can not reach...so to take up mind and its impermanence as an ultimate refuge would not be a reflection of rest.

 

Om

The Buddha has a different interpretation of Om from Hinduism. The experience of Om as it arises in meditation is from the experience of inter-connectivity and it's endless awesomeness leading to the experience of still "aaaaaaaahhhhh" even without utterance, so called beyond time. But to take the experience as a supreme source of all things is not recognizing it's emptiness or non-inherent existence and is merely falling into the formless realms and calling this ultimate. The experience of silence also arises dependently and is not independent. There is no non-phenomena that transcends everything.

 

In Buddhism, everything is a phenomena, thus nothing is taken refuge in, except this insight.

 

Buddha doesn't take refuge in the mind, but takes refuge in the fact that mind arises interdependently and is empty of self existence. Thus all experiences had by the mind, even in exalted states of "roaring silence" are also empty of inherent existence and arise dependently, thus is not an ultimate source of existence as if an independently existing source. So, to see silence as a Self of all, the oblivion of the roots of ego is not realized.

 

Your interpretation above is quite Vedic, which the Buddha denied as leading to Buddhahood. Though it's a nice interpretation which leads to higher states of conditioned consciousness, it doesn't uncompound and free one ultimately, as emptiness is not recognized.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[altiora]

Can someone tell me what motivates Vajrahridaya to high jack threads like this.

 

It is seriously annoying. This has nothing to do with the subject matter. It's all just a projection screen of a serious out of balance and proportion ego. It is the shaktipat thread all over again.

[adept]

Can someone tell me what motivates Vajrahridaya to high jack threads like this.

 

It is seriously annoying. This has nothing to do with the subject matter. It's all just a projection screen of a serious out of balance and proportion ego. It is the shaktipat thread all over again.

 

 

The title of this thread was 'Daoist Sitting in Oblivion vs Xstian Apophatic Prayer Are they one and the same???'

Another thread ruined it seems.

[altiora]

 

 

 

Hi alitora, I'm making new use of this wonderful "ignore posts" option. Keeps my mind at ease.

 

 

Thanks for pointing that option out for me

[3bob]

The Buddha has a different interpretation of Om from Hinduism. The experience of Om as it arises in meditation is from the experience of inter-connectivity and it's endless awesomeness leading to the experience of still "aaaaaaaahhhhh" even without utterance, so called beyond time. But to take the experience as a supreme source of all things is not recognizing it's emptiness or non-inherent existence and is merely falling into the formless realms and calling this ultimate. The experience of silence also arises dependently and is not independent. There is no non-phenomena that transcends everything.

 

In Buddhism, everything is a phenomena, thus nothing is taken refuge in, except this insight.

 

Buddha doesn't take refuge in the mind, but takes refuge in the fact that mind arises interdependently and is empty of self existence. Thus all experiences had by the mind, even in exalted states of "roaring silence" are also empty of inherent existence and arise dependently, thus is not an ultimate source of existence as if an independently existing source. So, to see silence as a Self of all, the oblivion of the roots of ego is not realized.

 

Your interpretation above is quite Vedic, which the Buddha denied as leading to Buddhahood. Though it's a nice interpretation which leads to higher states of conditioned consciousness, it doesn't uncompound and free one ultimately, as emptiness is not recognized.

 

Thanks for your viewpoint. Btw you missed or misunderstand a step in my interpretation, either consciously or unconsciously? "insight" is fine but of the mind, even pure insight; also my interpretation is not pointing to phenomena or even non-phenomena, it is trying to point to that which can not really be pointed to or named. Maybe we should let it be since this has all been hashed about "tit for tat" in other strings.

 

Om

Edited July 22, 2010 by 3bob

[Vajrahridaya]

Thanks for your viewpoint. Btw you missed or misunderstand a step in my interpretation, either consciously or unconsciously? "insight" is fine but of the mind, even pure insight; also my interpretation is not pointing to phenomena or even non-phenomena, it is trying to point to that which can not really be pointed to or named. Maybe we should let it be since this has all been hashed about "tit for tat" in other strings.

 

Om

 

I don't know if it's unconsciously or consciously , as I don't know you personally, nor do I know how you personally internalize concepts. But in Buddhas wisdom which I agree with, everything doesn't come from one transcendent beyond time, name and form. This is why he came to the insight of dependent origination even after having the experience of neither perception nor non-perception which it seems you are talking about as being the source of all things. This would mean independent origination, not dependent origination and not the insight of infinite regress without a leg to stand on. You seem to be taking silence as a source, or the common denominator of everything? I know this experience quite well and used to agree with this very deeply. This is why coming to the Buddhas wisdom was very difficult for me as I believed very deeply and on an experiential level in the wisdom of the Vedas.

 

The mind does not inherently exist, only relatively, so even the insight of Buddhahood is relative and does not inherently exist or transcend anything.

 

This is why I don't feel that the standing in oblivion in Taoism or Zen is equal with the Apophatic prayer as they are still considering an ineffable source in the same way the Upanishads say "neti-neti" or "not-this and not that" in reference to God. They are still saying that which is neither perception nor non-perception is the source of all existence while Zen is not.

 

So you see... what I'm saying is actually quite in line with what the topic is.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Myeh, shaddup. You bring your Buddhism into every thread you post, hijack it and then "make" it fit. You're a pesky little thing.

[Vajrahridaya]

Oh! 3bob, by the way...

 

Om right back at cha! :lol:

 

Thanks for being nice to this seeker.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

You are the ultimate in Buddhist twerpitudery!!! Ima gonna "follow you around" again just because it would be a shame to let your hijackin' posts go unpunished!!! It will be for your own spiritual good!!! Will he ever 'get it'??????

Edited July 23, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth