Taoist alchemy CHANG LIU MING-help

[Suliman]

hey guys ive been reading Chuang tzu,understanding reality and awakening of the tao for sometime now as well as thomas clearys other classics and rushed into practice of major principles too quickly without the proper maturity and grounding and guidings. I recently have been reading book of balance and harmony and find that it helps me understand principles very clearly but i dont know if im getting the correct interpretation of what it is saying.

I decided i better join up to these forums as i need help,i find its just too much to understand on the back of what i think it is saying.

 

i could be totally off the ball with what the book of balance and harmony is saying because although loads of crazy experiences and things have happened to me over the last few years and that in turn has produced periods of intense confusion and also awareness i still feel im major missing sumthing yet its probabluy infront of me but i just cant see it-its the story of my life.

i Feel major potential but wrong circumstances,or right circumstances then confusion kicks in.Like a yo-yo i have been... due to reading soo much stuff-taoist scripture,buddhist scripture,Chakra and Hinduism,Sufism and yet now i come to read a little sentence in balance and harmony and i had an aha! moment and yet it was soo simple and small paragraph. Yet i plough through loads of sutras,scriptures,techniques books and it just seems none of them kind of hit the mark to where im at in my life and how to apply principles that i feel i can do with harmony and the correct understanding.

Everything i seem to do from anything other than taoism and the way i understand it makes me fall and sluggishly suffer in my confusion hence bringing depression anxiety yet its not easy to brush that off and say--relax a little and dont be so anxious.

 

Has anyone else experienced this madness,extremes and total confusion then periods of intense awareness like yo-yo? and any advice from anyone i would appreciate no end.

 

Thanks Suliman

[Brian]

..

[Suliman]

Substance and function

 

Eternity is the substance of change: change is the function of change

 

Freedom from cognition(analysis,reflection,thoughtful consideration) and contrivance(clever artifice,devising strategies): is the substance of change

Sensitive adaptation : is function of change

 

Knowing the function ,one can find the substance

preserving the substance one can sharpen the function

 

I interpreted that in terms of most of chuang tzu's writings and the fact of using the Tao and spirit.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Substance and function

 

Eternity is the substance of change: change is the function of change

 

Freedom from cognition(analysis,reflection,thoughtful consideration) and contrivance(clever artifice,devising strategies): is the substance of change

Sensitive adaptation : is function of change

 

Knowing the function ,one can find the substance

preserving the substance one can sharpen the function

 

I interpreted that in terms of most of chuang tzu's writings and the fact of using the Tao and spirit.

Change is eternal...

 

Change is change...

 

Cognition is seeing permanence, which is delusion...

 

Contrivance is seeing a doer or purpose, which is another delusion.

 

Awareness is substance, when it is seen in all function, the function is enlightened by its light...

 

my 2 cents

[Bright_Moon]

Good Post.

 

I think that I may have had similar experiences to you, though I am fairly new to Taoism so please excuse me if I make any incorrect observations.

 

I have experienced moments of perfect clarity and often moments of total confusion. I have talked about these feelings with friends and they explain them away as a sort of "disillusionment with society". I disagree because during these moments I do not feel angry, sad or frustrated at all. It feels like a haze of cloud forms around my mind and I get into what I believe a western Buddhist may call "the struggle".

 

The most important thing I would say to you is that these feelings are 100% normal and valid and that you should allow them to happen. I believe that these moments may well be the driving force of the clarity. How would you know when you are clear on things if you never felt confused? It is like having up without down.

 

I can only draw from my own experiences. The only thing that I have found helpful during the confusing moments is to just sit in meditation. Approach the world through your ears. Let everything happen and just watch/listen. Your thoughts, sounds in the room around you, movements, everything. Just watch it without commentary.

 

I hope this helps but I am a begginer. I have not read the books you mention and hope to start on them soon. I have read a book called "vegetable root discourse" and reccomend it to you.

[Bright_Moon]

Change is eternal...

 

Change is change...

 

Cognition is seeing permanence, which is delusion...

 

Contrivance is seeing a doer or purpose, which is another delusion.

 

Awareness is substance, when it is seen in all function, the function is enlightened by its light...

 

my 2 cents

 

That was helpful to me!

[Suliman]

Change is change...

 

Cognition is seeing permanence, which is delusion...

 

Contrivance is seeing a doer or purpose, which is another delusion.

 

Awareness is substance, when it is seen in all function, the function is enlightened by its light...

 

my 2 cents

 

 

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This really helps me also ,thank you

[Suliman]

Cheers for advice Bright moon ive just got vegetable root discourse online so will read it.

 

I can only draw from my own experiences. The only thing that I have found helpful during the confusing moments is to just sit in meditation. Approach the world through your ears. Let everything happen and just watch/listen. Your thoughts, sounds in the room around you, movements, everything. Just watch it without commentary.

 

"I have tried observing and sitting in meditation but find it alot easier when im around people who meditate,sometimes when im in certain negative environments i find it hard to still my mind(even when i move from the negative environment my human mind observes that when i finish meditation the problem is still there--a false notion i know but cant get rid of it) as my human mind is very strong lol! and usually analysis becomes stronger when i try to sit in meditation,also reading Liu Mings writings and my own experience i find quiet sitting counterproductive(i hope that makes sense ,im no expert)"

 

Its interesting you go through similar experiences Bright moon and i appreciate you sharing and i will read through vegetable discourse and try an integrate my understanding .

The major thing i have found and maybe also the reason i come into alot of distress is that when i learn some buddhist scriptures they dont give me the kind of understanding i require whereas taoist knowledge seems to hit me in the face as a more relaxed,happy and less serious approach(i dont know why that is) and i am sometimes overwhelmed when i read some buddhist scriptures although ive got to admit it has inspired me and i still regard it highly.

 

The main problem i come across is the : giving up of desire(well moreover the way in which the ridding of desire is approached in buddhism sometimes can be overwhelmeing to me and causes intense confusion at times but taoist approach gives me much more harmony and i usually integrate the practice with a more clearer understanding and harmonious way.

 

 

Bear in mind everyone that my knowledge is incomplete and i hope some of it makes sense,i am investigating more and more and so have partial knowldge

[Bright_Moon]

The major thing i have found and maybe also the reason i come into alot of distress is that when i learn some buddhist scriptures they dont give me the kind of understanding i require whereas taoist knowledge seems to hit me in the face as a more relaxed,happy and less serious approach(i dont know why that is) and i am sometimes overwhelmed when i read some buddhist scriptures although ive got to admit it has inspired me and i still regard it highly.

 

The main problem i come across is the : giving up of desire(well moreover the way in which the ridding of desire is approached in buddhism sometimes can be overwhelmeing to me and causes intense confusion at times but taoist approach gives me much more harmony and i usually integrate the practice with a more clearer understanding and harmonious way.

 

I absolutely understand and relate to this point of view Suliman. I feel the same way. This is because Buddhism has a very negative style to it (in the sense that it has very little humour), trying to knock away all crutches/clinging to realize that there is nothing to hold on to can be distressing.

 

₁"When the Taoist's were exposed to Buddhism they did much to make it more practical" - Alan Watts.

This is because the Chinese are far more humourous I think. And they value being human. Many of my "Aha!" moments feel quite a lot like a spontaneous laugh. The Japanese call it satori.

 

An old Zen man once asked me the question "Why are you desiring not to desire"?. Does that help Suliman?

 

or perhaps also "WHO is it that desires to stop desiring?"

 

Here is a Zen poem and a commentary that I found helpful: (Apologies for not quoting the source)

 

"The perfect way (TAO) is without difficulty, for it avoids picking and choosing. Only when you stop liking and disliking will all be clearly understood. A split hairs difference and heaven and earth are set apart. If you want to get the plain truth, be not concerned with right or wrong. The conflict between right and wrong is the sickness of the mind."

 

Comment:

 

The point is not to make an effort to silence the feelings and cultivate bland indifference. It is to see through the universal illusion that what is pleasant or good may be rested from what is painful or evil. To see this is to see that good without evil is like up without down and that, to make an idea or pursuing the good, is like trying to get rid of the left by constantly turning to the right. One is therefore compelled to go around in circles.

 

Hope that helps Suliman and you are most welcome. Feel free to private message me.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Bright_Moon