Is A.A (alcoholics anonymous) something somene should beleive in?

[LaoTzu21]

Is A.A (alcoholics anonymous) something somene should beleive in for a well balanced mind. I have a friend who has been an alcoholic ad has fund Th AA program for him to work. which is a good thing of course but then when im feeling down sometimes r a bit negative he hen said something that shocked me he thought i was an alcoholic because of my extreme emotions i have sometimes. He then wanted me to read this book to see if it would help me. I refused as I didn't think this was the right path in my nature. My question is does The AA do good for people or make them deluded?

 

I've looked into the history of AA and the guy who wrote it seems to be a paranoid delusional. from some internet sources. and some scientific evidence that the Giving up rate for alcohol addiction gets worse from having AA. id like to see some pint of view from people on this forum.

[Tao99]

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Edited August 6, 2010 by Tao99

[LaoTzu21]

Hi, well I'm no expert but sometimes people see only the problem they are familiar with when they see someone having a problem. Are all emotionally volatile people alcoholics? No. Are all alcoholics emotionally volatile? No.

 

So may I suggest that you know yourself best and are 'right under your nose'. Thus maybe you could 'turn the light around, look within and take an honest look at yourself, your behaviors, your habits.

 

Perhaps you need to directly address the emotional volatility as a problem in and of itself, and then look in to lerning a meditation method to produce calm at will. I suggest tai chi, but then that's my personal favorite!

 

have good one!!

 

I've practised tai chi before and was very good at it although its been years since ive had a lesson. I had to stop doing chi kung to control the pain i would get and i would become very tired when doing it. i tryed meditation but because i made it up by myself and had no teacher at the time it has sent my mind sky rocketing into the land of imagination versus reality. but i have been off both of these activities since i realised what i have done. i don't drink at all but he said why dont you drink. and i said i don't like the feeling of loosing control or being something im not. he said your probably an alcoholic. im starting to think its more unhealthy to presume that everyone who has a problem with themselves is a potential alcoholic if they drank. i choose not too so i can be more healthy. and my I.B.S doesnt like it either plus when i started doping hard style chi kung and shoalin kung fu i noticed exactly what it was doing to my body. i felt like death after every time id go for a night out. as for my emotional problem im finding its because ive started a war with myself for the light to shine through the clouds. and its hard to shine most of the time for me. but back to the point of A.A ive read the 12 steps and i think if anything would make anyone vunerable to beleiving in something that most likely doesn't exist is cruel. but if it gets the desired results then thats ok too. but i just dont want people to be deluded about it either. heres a link to the 12 steps info on wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

[Birch]

I don't have experience with AA but I do know people who have and for whom it has worked. A lot of the stuff they do sounds very cultish and from my understanding is intended to break ego and rebuild it towards sobriety.

 

I'd guess, as others have said, that you know yourself if you have an issue with anything. Also, as others have said, being emotionally volatile could stem from anything, including past abuse and trauma, diet...oh the list is endless.

 

Meditation can be rough as hell which is why I'd rather suggest an established system with built in safeguards. There are lots of them discussed on here.

[Encephalon]

[Sahaj Nath]

Is A.A (alcoholics anonymous) something somene should beleive in for a well balanced mind. I have a friend who has been an alcoholic ad has fund Th AA program for him to work. which is a good thing of course but then when im feeling down sometimes r a bit negative he hen said something that shocked me he thought i was an alcoholic because of my extreme emotions i have sometimes. He then wanted me to read this book to see if it would help me. I refused as I didn't think this was the right path in my nature. My question is does The AA do good for people or make them deluded?

 

I've looked into the history of AA and the guy who wrote it seems to be a paranoid delusional. from some internet sources. and some scientific evidence that the Giving up rate for alcohol addiction gets worse from having AA. id like to see some pint of view from people on this forum.

 

i haven't read any of the other comments before writing this, but this is my experience.

 

i have clients/students/friends who are very involved in AA, and i have personally been REALLY impressed with how the program has changed their lives. but these are people who have a good 10+ years under their belt. the 12 steps, when taken seriously, are transformative. n00bs are over-zealous about EVERYTHING that they're into, even qigong/meditation.

 

i don't know anything about the history of AA, but i wouldn't confuse the issues of its founder with its present worth. i don't even know if the "paranoid delusional" thing is true, but it doesn't even matter, as it has NOTHING to do with the efficacy of the program.

 

a few months ago i was invited to a dinner with a group of ladies, all of whom were in AA. i was the only guy there, and i was truly humbled by what i witnessed that night. one woman was from the Hollywood Hills, her parents were movie stars, her 20's were spent in the coke-binge decade of the 80's, and she was very spoiled/privileged, grew up believing that the world was here to entertain her (those were HER words, later that evening). another woman was from the inner city. she was really harsh. everything she said seemed to have a negative slant (i'm not stranger to this, as she and i were from the same hood). she hung out with gangmembers in her 20's, wound up addicted to crack and prostituting herself for years, and she was always in and out out jail.

 

in most circumstances, the hollywood girl would have annoyed the hell out of the street woman with every word, and the street woman would have scared the hollywood girl and alienated herself from the group. but as they all began to talk, it was truly, truly humbling to see how they were able to relate to one another, to recognize how pain & suffering was universal, and how effortlessly they were able to create space for each other to express freely, without any tension between them.

 

maybe you just had to be there, but i was left in awe. it was truly remarkable.

 

they took their steps seriously. incredible amounts of honesty and vulnerability, and yet a tremendous amount of strength in that. i was so quiet that evening that at one point they apologized, assuming i was bored or something. i had to let them know what i was witnessing and how truly blown away i was. and i honestly don't know if my writing this out does it justice, but i was sitting at a table of people who were deeply spiritual and evolved, and they did it through AA. only one of the ladies were christian. the others were... i honestly don't remember what they were. but their level of openness, compassion, and authenticity was incredible to me.

 

it works if you work it. straight up. it's like any system of practice that gets discussed in this forum. people get so hung up on the system itself that they seem to forget that the system is just a vehicle. if you don't take your driving seriously or never learn to drive well, then the vehicle doesn't much matter.

 

the programs are important. the qualities you bring to the programs are even more important. and so a program that is designed for people who are broken is going to have a high failure rate if your ONLY measure of success is permanent sobriety. but AA goes WAY deeper than that. it helps people learn how to live, often for the first time in their lives. that can't be measured in days sober. many people who relapse STILL have changed lives and levels of self-awareness they would never have come to otherwise.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Hundun

[C T]

Nice post Hundun.. thanks so much for sharing that experience.

[fizix]

I've been to an actual AA meeting once out of curiosity, and I have personal experience with NA, which is simply the brother group for narcotics, it follows the same 12 steps/12 traditions, same basic text pretty much expect for alcohol being replaced with drug, and I cannot even begin to describe how you much of a miracle this program is, how many lives its saved; it is a SPIRITUAL program people, not religious. Most people have completely incorrect preconceived notions of what AA/NA is about. I will tell you right now with 100% certainty that any idiotic claim of these programs WORSENING the condition are bs or merely propaganda from the alternative/mainstream media Recovery circuit (ie books like as-seen-on-tv the Alcohol and Drug Addiction Cure) even private drug/alcohol rehab centers that are VERY expensive and none of these entities like losing potential customers to a non-profit, for free fellowship/spiritual based lifelong program. Is it something someone should believe in? Feel free to attend a meeting yourself and hear the stories of the people who are now living wonderful lives, people who used to be homeless, criminals, etc, but were saved by their higher power via the (A) fellowship. I live in Las Vegas where there is somewhat of a severe alcohol and drug problem for many, I know homeless people who were panhandling on the Strip and shooting up cocaine and heroin everyday in the tunnels and under bridges where they lived, who now have a steady job, shelter, food, warmth, such amenities people so often take for granite. This program works for anyone, but only if he works it.

 

edit: I attest to Hundun's post, the unconditional love and bonding in these fellowships is UNSEEN, UNHEARD of, I've never seen anything on such a scale until I joined NA. If you join one of the programs and you don't like getting hugs.... I have two words for you: too bad! The people you find in these programs come from all walks of live, unbelievable stories. Many of those with 10+ years share their message of recovery and lessons of spirituality with sage like wisdom. These people have endured the unendurable. Truly healed themselves spiritually by attaining oneness from the teachings of the program. Thanks for sharing hundun.

Edited July 21, 2010 by fizix

[Encephalon]

" the qualities you bring to the programs are even more important. and so a program that is designed for people who are broken is going to have a high failure rate if your ONLY measure of success is permanent sobriety. but AA goes WAY deeper than that. it helps people learn how to live, often for the first time in their lives. that can't be measured in days sober. many people who relapse STILL have changed lives and levels of self-awareness they would never have come to otherwise.

 

I still get plenty of value out of my AA meetings. Myself and others in the sangha have spiritual needs that are beyond the scope of AA, that's all. (Some can handle the language of monotheism, some not so much.) But long term sobriety can absolutely be used as a measure of the quality of life. People do bounce back from relapses with more than they started with, but sporadic sobriety is not likely to facilitate deeper healing, any more than a sporadic meditation practice can. I guess you could say that a life of relapse is better than full-time inebriation, but the kind of healthy sobriety that goes deep and rectifies all the negative internal scripts takes a long time for most people dealing with addictions. The Dalai Lama said you should evaluate your meditation practice every decade, and I'm beginning to think the same may be true for some of us in recovery (but maybe not all).

[LaoTzu21]

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#scientific

 

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_a4.html

[Encephalon]

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#scientific

 

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_a4.html

 

 

Ouch!!

 

Ya know, I think my criticisms of AA are well-founded and shared by many others in the community but when they go BALLS OUT on 12-step groups I get a little defensive. Look, valuable help comes in many guises, some are appropriate at some point, and some we outgrow. Ghandi said that some people can be so hungry that God can only appear to them in the form of a piece of bread. That doesn't mean that we spend the rest of our lives kneeling in the bakery section of Safeway.

[LaoTzu21]

Ouch!!

 

Ya know, I think my criticisms of AA are well-founded and shared by many others in the community but when they go BALLS OUT on 12-step groups I get a little defensive. Look, valuable help comes in many guises, some are appropriate at some point, and some we outgrow. Ghandi said that some people can be so hungry that God can only appear to them in the form of a piece of bread. That doesn't mean that we spend the rest of our lives kneeling in the bakery section of Safeway.

 

i just take the same view as frank zappa when it comes to a cult or religion. however you dress up AA its a cult because it takes advantage of people when they are weak. i know its good not to drink and all and helping alcoholics is a good thing. but telling them that nearly everything they do is a sin and they have to accept god into there lives or some higher power. theres few things i dont trust and when someone mentions the word sin i dont trust them at all. we all do what were supposed to do. if we do bad things e do bad things. and by bad things like interrupt the flow of someone elses way with intent to belittle them or hurt them. but the ideology of a sin in that respect is making people think that were higher than being human. people do bad things aswell as good things. just like ying and yang. and you learn from them and get stronger. i just really dont agree with it. from a perspective of understanding ying and yang.

[Encephalon]

i just take the same view as frank zappa when it comes to a cult or religion. however you dress up AA its a cult because it takes advantage of people when they are weak. i know its good not to drink and all and helping alcoholics is a good thing. but telling them that nearly everything they do is a sin and they have to accept god into there lives or some higher power. theres few things i dont trust and when someone mentions the word sin i dont trust them at all. we all do what were supposed to do. if we do bad things e do bad things. and by bad things like interrupt the flow of someone elses way with intent to belittle them or hurt them. but the ideology of a sin in that respect is making people think that were higher than being human. people do bad things aswell as good things. just like ying and yang. and you learn from them and get stronger. i just really dont agree with it. from a perspective of understanding ying and yang.

 

Well, I would take issue with your contention that AA preys upon the weak in cult-like fasion. I do agree with you that the elements of early 20th century American protestantism don't resonate too well with many people, and the effort to translate sin-imbued rhetoric into a non-theistic, non-moralizing language of awareness, of delusion vs wisdom, is sometimes very great, and sometimes I don't have the patience for it. But it ultimately depends on the meeting and the people.

 

"One Breath at a Time: Buddhism and the Twelve Steps" by Kevin Griffin is great for understanding the non-theistic, non-moralizing message of AA that's often buried beneath its Christian language.

[fizix]

Joined yesterday, 15 posts to count, bashing on a spiritual program despite NO REAL EXPERIENCE, welcome to the forums you'll find many of your kind here.

[LaoTzu21]

Joined yesterday, 15 posts to count, bashing on a spiritual program despite NO REAL EXPERIENCE, welcome to the forums you'll find many of your kind here.

 

No real experience what do you mean?

[Nanashi]

A good thing about AA is that is has a spiritual system-- the method is traditional, but you can substitute "god" for anything, as with most social organizations.

 

The problem with AA is that it isn't solely spiritual: it is also a process in the judicial system. A lot of the people attending meetings are ordered by the court, criminals-- within varying degrees. I have accompanied a friend to a few meetings at different places. One was run down with hardcore addicts (people who have tried to kill themselves) and another that was completely bourgeoisie. The latter leaned more toward religion.

 

But statistically, I heard several years ago, the success rate for AA was 12% for addicts quitting their addiction, whereas the success rate for people quitting on their own was at 12%. So maybe it depends on a person's level of discipline for freedom from their vice.

[Ryan T.]

i just take the same view as frank zappa when it comes to a cult or religion. however you dress up AA its a cult because it takes advantage of people when they are weak.

 

AA is not a cult. Many things can be cultish if people give them that type of energy. I've seen taiji clubs/studios seem very cult-like depending on where you stood. I see young girls all walking around with Coach handbags, black Northface fleece jackets and UGG boots, they also seem to have fallen into some type of cult that includes that particular uniform.

 

You need to understand that there are two AA.s, the fellowship of AA and the program of AA. The first is the meeting with the bad coffee, the smoke breaks and a lot of folks complaining about stuff. The second is where one member sits down and walks another struggling member through the the "Big Book" of AA. That book outlines how the first hundred men and women came to long-term sobriety. From what I have seen, folks that otherwise could not stop drinking were able to stop when they did the things outlined in that book and if they kept those ideas and principles alive in their lives after that they were able to maintain that sobriety. People talk about success rates all the time. But it really comes down to how you apply yourself to the program. If an alcoholic actively works "the steps" of AA in daily life they will stay sober. Period.

 

That being said even Bill W., one of the founders of the organization/movement, stated that AA was just "spiritual kindergarten". For many suffering/struggling with addiction it is where they begin.

 

The main problem I see when people try to understand what happens in AA is the fact that they look at alcoholism as a choice or some type of character defect. For true alcoholics it goes well beyond that, though it may have been that in the beginning. For the true alcoholic, admitting that they are an alcoholic means that they suffer from a chronic incurable illness. The only remission for that illness is a spiritual solution. AA provides that. Other things can provide that as well. AA has proven itself for millions of people for the better part of a century so I would say best not to judge things from the periphery!

[liminal_luke]

Two things: (1) Twelve steps groups have undoubtedly done lots of people a world of good. (2) Central to the whole program is the idea of taking on a problem as an identity...ie "i am an addict (alcoholic, compulsive eater, codependent, etc.) While this approach has a certain utility in breaking through the denial characteristic of addiction, it's ultimately just not true. Problems and difficulties are not identities. Nobody *is* their problem.

[Ryan T.]

Two things: (1) Twelve steps groups have undoubtedly done lots of people a world of good. (2) Central to the whole program is the idea of taking on a problem as an identity...ie "i am an addict (alcoholic, compulsive eater, codependent, etc.) While this approach has a certain utility in breaking through the denial characteristic of addiction, it's ultimately just not true. Problems and difficulties are not identities. Nobody *is* their problem.

 

Very much at the heart of AA is that people's actions/behaviors are not who they are. They are very much changeable.

 

But the mind of the addict very much needs the concrete acceptance that they are this or that(ie alcoholic, addict, dependency-of-choice) in order to start the process of recovery. It is very much like the acceptance of the nature of suffering in the world that the Buddha espoused.

 

So intellectually I get where you are coming from but for the addict it more often than not is a matter of life and death. So for them it is more than a "certain utility", it is absolutely a necessity in order to survive. Only later can the addict start to see and absorb those nuances.